Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

[Minoru]

My gaming group (I'm the gm) is cionverting an ongoing game after being fed up with the shoddy rules of the aberrant system. I have found in my gaming group that it is best to disallow powers or abilities that let one player act more than the others. To that end I am considerig removing the speed stat, everybody gets one action / round. and after 12 (or maybe moving that down to 10) rounds they get the normal recovery that would normally happen at phase 12. Has anybody experimented with this or anything like it before? I am very new to this system (I just spent the last 4 days going over every superhero system I could find for a decent system to convert to) and may be missing something here, but when converting from a game where everybody acted once a round, to a variable ammount, seems like it will only confuse my players (some of them are clearly intimidated by the rules of the Hero System), so I'm looking to simplify things. Any advice would be apreciated!

[Christopher]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

We just had a similar discussion:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/90037-Alternate-initiative-rules

 

A common approach for convetion games is to give every hero the same SPD. For heroic 3 or 4 (with 2 being a normal foe). For Superheroic 5 or 6 (with 2-3 being good for weak foes).

That means they act about twice as often as weaker foes and get recovery every 4 Rounds.

You can even still have the full SPD-chart behind the scenes, to allow more variancy between foes. And properly built foes that can stand up to the group (they need more actions).

 

Going all the way to 1 Recover/10-12 Turns:

I recommend against it. At that level they will propably burn Endurance and Stun much too fast. SPD 10-12 is nothing I would advise to start at.

[Lucius]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

If you, in effect, give everyone a SPD of 1, here are some things you can expect:

 

If a single superhero is up against a gang of thugs, the super will have a hard time coming off as appropriately comic book style "super" against them because if there are, say, ten of them, they get TEN actions to the heros ONE.

 

If a team of superheroes is up against a single master villain, what they call a "boss fight" nowadays, the villain you want to be impressive and scary likely won't be, because they only get to do ONE thing and the player characters get as many actions as they have characters, probably around what, six?

 

In other words, you're making the power of sheer numbers more important. SPD is helpful in creating that experience of playing someone with "powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men" and being able to say "this guy can take on an army!" with a straight face.

 

Now, it IS much easier if all the players have the same SPD. And just because the "typical" Champions game has average SPD of 5 or 6 doesn't mean you need to do the same. If you keep all your "normals" at SPD 2, and make all player characters SPD 4, that might be enough to let them dominate appropriately against street gangs. If you have a villain meant to take on the whole team, give them SPD 6 or maybe even 8.

 

 

I don't think giving only one RECovery after 10 or 12 actions is a good idea. But if you try it, let us know how it works.

 

Lucius Alexandere

 

The palindromedary wants a SPD of 13

[Vulcan]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

Removing speed basically means you're not playing HERO System anymore. The speed chart is the core mechanic of the game.

 

By all means go for it if you think it will work for you. But the speed chart is pretty integral to the game, you might find a fair chunk of hidden imbalances by not using it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

I tried removing Speed once but everyone just stood around doing nothing, so I put it back again.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

On a more helpful note, if you are going to do this, try making everyone SPD 4. That is a pretty good place to start and means that you are actually using the SPD chart, but it will not feel like you are because everyone gets the same number of actions. SPD 4 will mean that most superheroes will rarely have any END problems but can slow down combat a little because it also means that they have a greater rate of recovery, in effect.

[dmjalund]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

I tried going without speed

 

the withdrawal symptoms were horrible

 

 

 

 

what?

[Markdoc]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

We actually tried it in-game, but the withdrawal symptoms were still horrible. Basically after trying the game without SPD for two sessions, everyone - including the GM who had suggested it - agreed it was such a horrible idea that we would never mention it again.

 

Basically the whole game was written with that mechanic as core and it comes across as only part of a game without it.

 

cheers, Mark

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

Not even once.

 

The problem may be that there's too wide a Speed variance between PCs. Generally, I feel PCs should only vary by 2 or 3 points tops, so a heroic game might be all Speeds 3-4, low supers might be 4-7, high supers 5-8, that sort of thing.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

I would pretty much concur with the other posts. Just put all the PCs at one SPD so they all have the same number of actions, and most of their adversaries should also have the same SPD for the sake of convenience. I do this regularly in heroic level games just to speed up combat. This keeps things simple, but you still have the flexibility of using the SPD chart if you need it when the PCs are facing a "boss fight" where the villain needs the extra SPD, or to slow down the opposition in case they are fighting plodding zombies or something.

[Ice9]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

Having all the PCs at the same speed can work fine (and IMO they shouldn't be more than 1-2 points apart in any case), but Speed is very useful for reflecting things like armies of goons, bystanders, very dangerous foes, and so forth. You could, however, keep things to few simple speed bands - Slow (mooks, bystanders), Normal (the PCs, most foes), and Fast (powerful solo villains). If those were set at SPD 2, 4, and 8, for example, you don't even need the full chart.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

While Speed is hardly The Core Mechanic of Hero, it's certainly an important aspect.

 

As most people have suggested, having all the PCs the same SPD helps - and the Speed Chart should be kept for effects that carry through 'unused' Phases (like Flash for example).

 

What you can do for a Heroic game that works well is give everyone Speed 3 - no points needed. Normals and some Mooks get Speed 2, the Really Important Enemies and Best Of The Best get Speed 4 - open this up to PCs if you'd like, but advise them that Speed 3 is the Normal Characteristic Maxima and while they get Speed 3 for free, it still costs 20 Points to go to Speed 4.

 

This does allow for q slightly quicker combat resolution if almost all combats involve Speed 3 characters. You just need a Combat Order Chart and every 3 actions everyone gets a Post 12 Recovery. If a Flash comes into play or it's rolled to the end of the combat 'turn' (note the lowercase) then a Character can have the chance to Abort their next Action (or combat 'turn') as per normal Hero rules.

 

For Superheroic Games I recommend using the Speed Chart and Speed variances as RAW.

[Minoru]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

Thanks for all the replies. I will likely have all the players at 4 speed.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

I think that is a good idea: it allows you to introduce the players to the concept of the Hero SPEED system, without confusing them and you can introduce variations in SPD using adjustment powers, if you wish. Once they are comfortable with that, they can create characters with different SPD, or you can stick to SPD 4 if that works well for you.

 

You will hear it again and again, but Hero is able to create any character but also it is very flexible in creating campaign rules, and that is what you have here.

 

Let us know how it goes!

[Old Man]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

It also depends on what type of campaign you're running. For the vast majority of Fantasy Hero campaigns I've been in, SPD would not have been missed. In fact, it would have cleaned up some imbalances with drains and the significant difference between SPD 3 and SPD 4.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

Why is a 1 SPD difference in a fantasy game more significant than a one SPD difference in any other Heroic level game of the same point/cv/dc/et cetera level?

[Christopher]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

Why is a 1 SPD difference in a fantasy game more significant than a one SPD difference in any other Heroic level game of the same point/cv/dc/et cetera level?

I asume he means Fantasy as synomym for "heroic".

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

Mighty big assumption with no support from his actual post. Might be correct...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

Here's is an alternate resolution system I swag'd out for use in a play by post game, where the rules as written 12 segment turn is problematic to adjudicate due to asynchronous posting delays. It doesn't get rid of SPD but it does get rid of the rigid segmentation in favor of a more free form approach. Might be useful or inspirational for you:

 

Goals:

   Allow a player to post when convenient, not when their "DEX" is up.
   Speed up Combat
   Keep the SPD stat roughly balanced against it's current power (in both directions).

Possible Solution:

* TURN Based Combat Resolution.

   * In play by post the GM declares a sufficiently long time window for players to post actions; perhaps a couple of days if necessary.

* Each character's SPD = their Action Pool for a TURN. This is the number of distinct Actions they may take in a TURN, following the normal Full and Half Phase Action model. Characters can't take a Half and Hold a Half -- they must declare an entire Action composed of two 1/2 Phases at once or lose the extra Half Phase.

* Each character's PRE/5 = their Dialogue Pool for a TURN. This is the number of dialogue snippets they can use in the TURN, not including a Post Turn Soliloquy

* Each character's (DEX + Lightning Reflexes)/10 = their Interrupt Pool for a TURN. This is the number of other character's Actions they can try to Interrupt in the TURN. Interrupts trump each other. Characters cannot trump their own Actions with an Interrupt but can trump Interrupts against their Actions. An Abort functions like a non-trumpable Interrupt only for the Manuever Aborted to.

* Players and the GM may log on and declare their character's Actions in whatever order they happen to post in.

   * The Player may declare up to a number of Actions equal to their SPD as distinct Posts until they run out. Action declarations are simply intent; i.e. the Attack the character intends to use (with any relevant info like OCV and DCV). To hit and damage are not resolved at this time.

       * Players can hold some Actions back to respond to other character's actions with.
       * Players can declare general intent for some actions such as Healing which rely heavily on combat resolution; such actions would float and be spliced in as appropriate by the GM during the TURN Resolution.
       * No take backs.

   * The GM may do the same with NPC's
   * Action Posts should be a split between description and mechanics, and visible to everyone
   * Players that log on later can respond to previous players posts with Aborts, dialogue, etc. as well as their own Actions.

       * Characters can use their Interrupts to attempt to force their later posted action before another character's earlier posted Action

   * Characters can't hold Actions across TURNs.

* At the end of the time window, the GM closes the TURN and then parses all of the Actions in chronological order, applying common sense as necessary to interleave events.

   * If necessary the GM resolves conflicting actions by making a DEX roll for each character involved and adding the result to their SPD. The character with the better roll resolves first.

* The GM posts the results for the entire TURN in an even split between flavorful description and composite mechanical results.

* A Post Turn Soliloquy occurs.
* A Post TURN Recovery occurs.

PROS:

   Batched processing allows effectively Asynchronous operations to be coallesced into a logical order; this allows logical flow and chronology while conceding to the limitations of the PBEM environment.
   Should be somewhat more convenient for people to log in and post several potential actions at once.
   Allows for more natural dialogue.
   Makes Mapping easier.

CONS:

   Will require care, tweaking, and resolution as things come up.
   Might make SPD either too good or not good enough (hard to say at this point).
   Diminishes the Initiative aspect of DEX.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

Why is a 1 SPD difference in a fantasy game more significant than a one SPD difference in any other Heroic level game of the same point/cv/dc/et cetera level?

 

A Spd 4 character acts 33% more frequently than a Spd 3 character.

A Spd 6 character acts 20% more frequently than a Spd 5 character.

 

Of course, the Spd 3 character will have 10 more points to use on stats, levels, or abilities, so in general I would think it'd work out.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

A Spd 4 character acts 33% more frequently than a Spd 3 character.

A Spd 6 character acts 20% more frequently than a Spd 5 character.

 

Of course, the Spd 3 character will have 10 more points to use on stats, levels, or abilities, so in general I would think it'd work out.

 

Yeah, I get that. My question was why he felt is was specifically an issue with fantasy games, as opposed to Heroic level games in general.

[Old Man]

Re: Has anybody experimented with removing Speed?

 

Yeah' date=' I get that. My question was why he felt is was specifically an issue with [i']fantasy[/i] games, as opposed to Heroic level games in general.

 

Only because the vast majority of my experience with Heroic level games is FH. There was a brief Star Hero campaign back in 3rd ed, and a Danger Int campaign that literally resulted in TPK on the first encounter.

 

In FH at least, not only is there a 33% increase going from SPD 3 to SPD 4, you also don't have a wide range of SPD values. 95% of the combatants are SPD 3 so the SPD 4 guy knows he has phase 9 all to himself. In Champions, you have a typical SPD range from 5-8, and somebody goes on just about every phase.