6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

[omnius]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

hey, thanks for all the advice, Pegasus, i'll check out the Scrivener and the Clinic books... they both sound usefull. And I'll throw one out that I've found pretty helpful while building this game: fractal terrain pro. A great program for creating worlds. it takes a bit of fine-tuning to get the land-masses to look the way I want, but the software is pretty handing and fairly easy to use, though the manual and help files aren't very helpfull---mostly trial and error. Then once the map is generated you can zoom in or out pretty far; it also details Height, climate, Rainfall, Temperature, distances, etc.... very handy.

I also have the Campaign Cartographer, which i haven't messed with too much, I found I actually like useing the GIMP shareware better for purposes of labelling the map, showing trade networks and the like.

If I remember right, the Fractal Terrain Pro was something like $30-40 and its a product of somewhere in northern europe (I think?).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

One of the best pieces of advice I've gotten with regard to character creation was to have the characters take X number of points (usually about 2/3 to 3/4 of their total points) and create a character who can hold down a job. Then' date=' they can take the remaining points and make the character heroic. I WISH I had gotten that piece of advice before starting my campaign.[/quote']

 

There's two sides to this. If the characters are required to spend significant points on, say, Blacksmithing, or Baking, or Farming related skills, then I suggest there is an onus on the GM to make those skills useful in the game. If they are not useful in the game, then the characters should not be required to purchase them with points - they are background fluff like gender, red hair or physical attractiveness, with no in-game effect. Just as we chant the mantra that limitations which do not limit, and disadvatanges/complications which do not disadvantage/complicate are worth no points, abilities which carry no in-game benefit are also worth no points.

 

You can also get characters to spend points on things like Area Knowledges (they have spent three weeks in some town trudging around shops' date=' inns and so forth then they learn something about the place). Likewise languages, Knowledges about people and politics. Of course, you have to give them reason to realise that non-combat skills are important too.[/quote']

 

When the players must search through the town, does the fact they have spent no points on AK, don't know the language native to the area and have no Contacts make it difficult or impossible to succeed with that task? Or do these issues get swept under the rug in the interests of expediency? Everyone speaks "Common", what the characters need to know is handed to them as common knowledge, and friendly passersby helpfully give directions and answer other questions (with no interaction skill rolls to be found), etc. If so, why would anyone spend points on these skills? But if the combat monster is completely useless in such scenarios, and just stands around looking tough while the game is really played by his better rounded teammates, this sends the message that characters need to be well-rounded.

 

Maybe the characters fail to find their quarry because they lack any skills to do so, and the fact they have monster combat skills never comes up, since they never find the enemy to engage in combat. Perhaps the players would then like to take a step back and rewrite their characters to be more well rounded, not just combat wombats.

 

As always, Step Zero is to discuss the kind of game the players want - maybe they just want to move from battle to battle with the thinnest of storylines linking them. In that case, combat wombats work just fine. The group needs to have a consensus on what this game will be all about, and build characters to match. My new Pathfinder character has a feat that grants two additional languages and makes two mental skills class skills (perception and sense motive selected), because this game is expected to feature considerable interaction and investigation. If it were a dungeon crawl, he'd have something more combat-oriented instead.

[Steve]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Hugh makes an excellent observation. Before the first point is spent, a determination must be made on how much combat and how much non-combat activities there will be in a campaign. In some, it will be 90/10 and another might be a 40/60 mix. I suppose you could also have a campaign that was entirely non-combat in structure, which might be an interesting stretch of the system.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

I am a firm believer on allowing my players to make the character they want to play. At the same time, I will explain the campaign setting to them in as great a detail as they require to make a character that fits into said campaign setting. If all the players want to make combat characters, well by golly that's what we'll have.

 

And the first time they have to deal with the Thieves guild and no one possesses Streetwise and they get screwed trying to trade in some valuable items they found for cash they'll learn the value of non-combat skills.

 

As you play, present situations to the players that require their characters to have non-combat skills. They'll buy them with their experience points. Drop them into a deep pit and only the character with Climbing skill can make it out. Present a long hallway filled with poison dart traps that's very difficult to make it through...unless a character has Acrobatics. Trap them in a room with a crushing ceiling that only a character with Disarm Traps (Security Systems) can stop. Make haggling without the Trading skill difficult and not profitable (which is fairly realistic). Weapons require repair and maintenance (Weaponsmith) regularly or they develop CV and DC penalties. (-1 DC for a dull blade sounds reasonable to me) Wounds will continue to bleed unless properly bound (Paramedic) and if not seen to, will heal improperly. (Dex or Con penalties) And what good is it to have a map to a huge treasure if you can't read it and continue to get lost (Navigation and Area Knowledge).

 

After playing for a few sessions and showing your players the benefit and necessity of certain non-combat skills, allow the players to re-design their characters (including the XP they have attained thus far) and you'll probably see more balanced character sheets.

 

Of course, if all your players want combat, I suggest you oblige them if you want happy players...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

OK...for anyone interested, here's an update on how things are going: Mediocre.

 

I have relaxed my original Characteristic Maxima limitations from 3/4ths of the "Normal Characteristic Maxima" suggested in 6E1, to simply use the 6E1 maximas (basically 20 in the physical and mental characterstics, etc).

 

In our first attempt at character creation, the players were given the suggested "heroic" level of character points: 175. I wound up with (as someone so eloquently put it) a collection of "combat wombats" with ridiculous combat capabilities, and only the background skills and options that I basically forced the players to take. It did not work well for a relatively gritty low-fantasy game at all.

 

In round 2, the characters were rebuilt on 100 points. No real surprises there -- the combat capabilities of the group were greatly toned down, but the background skills and options all but disappeared as well.

 

So, we did round 3. 125-point builds. Combat capabilities increased somewhat, but I was able to get most of the characters to add back in a few background skills and abilities. However, most of the characters are still only good for one thing: combat.

 

One of the greatest struggles I'm having is getting the players to think in terms of creating a CHARACTER rather than a collection of combat statistics, and choosing skills and abilities that simply make sense for that characters.

 

...

This is where Race Packages come in handy, even (perhaps especially) for "humans".

 

Race Packages

Human Packages

 

You define cultural "race" packages that contain a combination of biological and cultural abilities, and require all players to choose one (and only one). If a player's character concept does not fit well into any of the packages you already have, you can cobble together one based on their background while still ensuring the underlying intent of expressing background concepts is observed (don't let the player obstinately insist their character was born on a battlefield, learned to fight immediately, and spent every moment since then locked into mortal combat and thus have nothing except for combat skills).

 

You can do this even if you have an "all human" world.

 

You can be very specific and have distinct packages per society or significant sub group / culture, or you can be more abstract (Physical Human, Academic Human, Craftsman Human, Nautical Human, etc).

 

You should allow for variety, either with a specific list of options (pick lists), or by putting together a set of common abilities plus a collection of sub-packages of equal point cost and letting the player pick from among them. CRef= Human (Physical) vs Human (Skilled)

 

By this mechanism, you as the GM have effectively carved out a chunk of points and limited what they can be spent on, thus giving you a tool to allow the players generally free choice, but force them to not completely ignore their background in favor of "killing stuff" abilities.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Another question: is there a way to limit what I'll call "daisy chaining"? What I'm talking about is the tendency of characters with high DEX to hold their actions and wait for the opponents to engage someone. Then' date=' they immediately take their held action to move behind one of the opponents putting him at 1/2 DCV. In terms of game mechanics, it's a decent tactic; but if everyone uses it, you end up with long lines of combatants and everyone attacking someone else's back...and then the first guy in the chain does a half move to the back of the line and the process starts all over again. Mechanically, it makes tactical sense, but when you look at it in terms of how combats really work, it just looks...wrong.[/quote']

 

Don't get too caught up in the visual aspect. If you feel it is a valid tactical situation, allow it. I would.

 

Your players may take advantage of it (nothing wrong with that...at least they are doing more than "I hit him with my sword") but they'll be more cautious the first time they run into an expert combatant with Defense Maneuver and Daisy chaining doe not work...in fact it nearly gets one of the P.C.'s killed.

 

There is also the "Honorable" aspect to this tactic. In societies that use melee weapons and the concept of a duel is a common way of solving grievances, attacking someone from behind will likely be seen as cowardly and dishonorable. A character who does this often will gain a very, very bad reputation. They may also be viewed as using their comrades as distractions and shields and not keep NPC friends for long doing this.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

This is where Race Packages come in handy' date=' even (perhaps [i']especially[/i]) for "humans".

 

Race Packages

Human Packages

 

You define cultural "race" packages that contain a combination of biological and cultural abilities, and require all players to choose one (and only one). If a player's character concept does not fit well into any of the packages you already have, you can cobble together one based on their background while still ensuring the underlying intent of expressing background concepts is observed (don't let the player obstinately insist their character was born on a battlefield, learned to fight immediately, and spent every moment since then locked into mortal combat and thus have nothing except for combat skills).

 

You can do this even if you have an "all human" world.

 

You can be very specific and have distinct packages per society or significant sub group / culture, or you can be more abstract (Physical Human, Academic Human, Craftsman Human, Nautical Human, etc).

 

You should allow for variety, either with a specific list of options (pick lists), or by putting together a set of common abilities plus a collection of sub-packages of equal point cost and letting the player pick from among them. CRef= Human (Physical) vs Human (Skilled)

 

By this mechanism, you as the GM have effectively carved out a chunk of points and limited what they can be spent on, thus giving you a tool to allow the players generally free choice, but force them to not completely ignore their background in favor of "killing stuff" abilities.

 

Pretty much This. I was going to suggest it in fact. Racial, Cultural and Professional packages go a long way toward fleshing out a characters background. At the very least all characters should have a Professional Package. As GM, you could require all 3.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

On a related note, I am of the opinion that the ideas of Relevance and Reliability are important considerations for any campaign.

 

So...it seems you as the GM expect the campaign to be maybe 50/50 combat/roleplaying (or whatever) while your players seem to expect that it will be more like 95/5 combat/roleplaying and are making their characters accordingly.

 

Anyway, read the doc if you have some time, it might help you.

 

Relevance and Reliability

 

Here's a little excerpt:

 

The first consideration is Relevance; a measure of how pertinent a character is to the style of the campaign at hand.

 

What is important to a particular campaign are often subtle and frequently difficult to summarize intangibles that a GM knows are essential to what they want to evoke and accomplish, even if they can't always express them clearly. Characters that fit in with some or all of the considerations important to the GM's vision can simply be said to be Relevant to the campaign.

 

Since different campaigns vary in what they are about, the same character can be very relevant to some campaigns and irrelevant (which is to say out of place) in others. This is why some characters are fantastic in some games but come up short in different campaigns that seem similar on the surface. This is obviously true across genres and power levels, but it is also true across campaigns in the same genre and power level.

...

 

To determine a character's Relevance a GM must first know what their campaign is going to be about. In most campaigns this boils down to Roleplaying and Combat, but this can be shaded in many different striations. And of course specialized campaigns usually have equivalently specialized considerations of Relevance.

 

For instance the needs of a noir crime / hardboiled detective campaign are very different from a high camp space opera campaign. The most detailed and perfect Bogartian gumshoe would be god-like in one such game (high Relevance and Reliability), and completely out of his depth in the other. Some would look at that example and cry "foul", assuming that the detective campaign must be set in the Pulp era and the space opera must be something futuristic, but HERO Gamers worth the name know that they could just be two different takes on the same exact setting and material.

 

...

 

The second consideration is Reliability; a measure of how dependable the character is, their ability to make their actions matter.

 

Reliability is a little harder to figure, but it's basically just a numbers game. However, to determine a character's Reliability a GM must first define what it is the character is supposed to be good at. For some characters this is bleedingly obvious, but other characters require a more discerning eye.

 

The goal is to define the character's metier, their raison d'etre, their shtick. In some ways this is just archetyping by another name, but it is typically a more discerning approach. At any rate it can all be boiled down to the process of answering the question "is the character good at what they do?".

 

....

 

Once a GM knows what their campaign is about, employing this form of character assessment is a snap.

 

For each character simply decide if they are Extremely, Very, Somewhat, or Barely Relevant to the campaign.

 

Once that has been done, the GM then just decides how dependably the character can succeed at doing their "thing" when the opportunity arises; in other words are they Extremely, Very, Somewhat, or Barely Reliable, when considered as a whole.

[omnius]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Killer and Hugh, you guys make some great points. I always found it useful to scour the PC sheets and take notes on likely weaknesses, blind-spots, and the like. Things that as a GM I can take advantage of, or rather an NPC can take advantage of. I figure life takes everyone down a notch from time to time; no reason PC hero's shouldn't get their due on occasion. And I really like the idea of pre-defined cultural templates for characters. They work as a good platform for creating a "real" character and gives the GM some room to roam outside to combat scenario's. I'll be stealing your idea Killer Shrike, if you don't mind!?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

If I minded people using my stuff I probably wouldn't publish it to a web site and say "here, use this".

 

 

So..er...no, I don't mind.

[Pegasus40218]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

To try to put some of my struggles into context, I've decided to post some examples of the characters that my players have created. (I have the characters in Hero Designer, so I'm giving stats and such the HD does)...Keep in mind, this is at the start of a "Gladiator" campaign (low-powered low-fantasy, limited magic) -- most of the PCs have just been captured and sold to a lanista (master of gladiators). I'm also going to only list the skills they spent points on, not the free "everyman" skills they were given. Also, keep in mind: these are 125 point characters.

 

Character #1: A character from a culture similar to the Spartan culture of ancient Greece.

STR: 18 DEX: 11 CON: 18 INT: 10 EGO: 13 PRE: 13 OCV: 6 DCV: 8 OMCV: 2 DMCV: 2 SPD: 3 PD: 8/10 ED: 2/4 REC: 10 END: 31 BODY: 15 STUN: 30

Skills

Teamwork: 11- Tactics: 11- Navigation(land): 11- Survival(Mountain): 11- Weaponsmith(Swords and Daggers): 11- Gambling(Card Games): 11-

Fast Draw: 11- Tracking: 11- Survival(Temperate/Subtropical): 11- Animal Handler(Equines): 12- Riding: 11- KS (Gladiators): 11- Language (Doethi): Fluent Conversation

WF: Polearms and Spears WF: Bows WF: Blades

+2 OCV w/Longsword +2 OCV w/Longbow

Complications

(25) Social Comp: Slave (VF, Severe)

(5) Social Comp: Fights over insults about home (IF, Minor)

(5) Social Comp: Fights over abuse of animals (IF, Minor)

(5) Social Comp: Fights over loyalty to fellow soldiers (IF, Minor)

(10) Psych Comp: Fear of heights (Uncommon, Strong)

(15) Social Comp: Fight to the death for country (IF, severe)

(15) Social Comp: Fight to the death for family (IF, severe)

(5) Social Comp: Fight for females (IF, minor)

 

 

Character #2: Modeled after a Mongol warrior

STR: 13 DEX: 15 CON: 13 INT: 13 EGO: 10 PRE: 13 OCV: 5 DCV: 6 OMCV: 3 DMCV: 3 SPD: 3 PD: 6/8 ED: 2/4 REC: 8 END: 40 BODY: 14 STUN: 30

Skills

Acrobatics: 10- Analyze (Fighting Styles/Tactics/Combat): 10- Animal Handler(Equines): 12- Breakfall: 8- Combat Driving (Equines): 10- Concealment: 10-

Contortionist: 10- Gambling (Dice Games): 12- KS (Arenas): 11- KS (Famous Gladiators): 11- Language (Doethi): Basic Conversation Lockpicking: 8-

Navigation (land): 12- Riding: 10- Stealth: 10- Survival (Arctic/Subarctic Plains, Temperate/Subtropical Plains): 12- Teamwork: 10- Tracking: 8-

+3 (3pt) CSLs with Javelins

+3 PSL to offset range penalties with bows

Perks:

Contact: Lanista (contact has useful skills or resources): 8-

Complications:

(20) Social Complication: Slave (VF, Major)

(5) Psych Comp: Fear of Supernatural Manifestations (uncommon, moderate)

(5) Psych Comp: Fights for freedom (uncommon, moderate)

(5) Psych Comp: Fights for Friends (uncommon, moderate)

(5) Psych Comp: Willing to die to free his people (uncommon, total)

 

Character #3: A bare-knuckle pit fighter

STR: 18 DEX: 10 CON: 18 INT: 10 EGO: 10 PRE: 10 OCV: 6 DCV: 6 OMCV: 3 DMCV: 3 SPD: 3 PD: 8 ED: 2 REC: 8 END: 30 BODY: 20 STUN: 40

Skills:

CK (Home City): 12- KS (Arenas): 11- KS(Famous Gladiators): 11- PS(Criminal): 11- WF: Dagger WF: Gladius

Martial Arts (Ancient Boxing): Punch (Basic Strike); Jab (Custom Maneuver); Block (Custom Maneuver)

(4) Unarmed +2 with any single attack

Perks:

Combat Luck

(5) Contact: Viaticus, the Money Lender (Contact has useful skills or resources, significant contacts of his own, good relationship): 11-

(5) Contact: Lanista (Contact has access to major institutions, significant contacts of his own, very useful skills or resources): 11-

Complications:

(25) Gladiator/Slave (VF, Severe)

(15) Fear of spiders (common, strong)

(10) Rivalry: Professional, As Powerful, Seeks to harm or kill, aware of rivalry

Note: This is the only player who has given me any sort of background material to work with. The others have just referenced broad cultural archetypes (if that).

 

Character #4: A kobald (sic) warrior

STR: 13 DEX: 16 CON: 13 INT: 10 EGO: 10 PRE: 13 OCV: 3 DCV: 3 OMCV: 3 DMCV: 3 SPD: 4 PD: 6 ED: 4 REC: 6 END: 24 BODY: 10 STUN: 25

Skills

Acrobatics: 12- Acting: 12- Breakfall: 12- Defense Maneuver 1-2 Sleight of Hand: 8- Teamwork: 12- Two-Weapon Fighting (HTH multiple attacks only)

WF: Small Axe WF: Short Spear

Martial Arts: (5) Defensive Strike; (4) Martial Dodge; (1) Weapon Element - Small Axe

+2 (3pt) CSLs w/Martial Arts

Perks:

Combat Luck

Off-hand defense

(2) Contact: Lanista: Contact has useful skills or resources

Powers:

(7): Shrinking (1 m tall, 12.5 KG mass, -2 PER rolls to perceive character, +2 DCV); persistent, 0 END, Always On

(5): Scales (Resistant protection 1 rPD/1rED) plus +1 PD plus +1 ED

(6): Amphibious: swimming +2m (10m total), plus Underwater Breathing (Expanded Breathing)

Complications

(10) Dependent NPC (a fellow kobald); Infrequently, normal

(5) Rivalry: Professional(Kobald slave, as powerful, seek to outdo, embarrass, or humiliate, rival is aware of rivalry)

(10) Psych Comp: Fear of Horses (common, moderate)

(20) Distinctive features - Kobald (not concealable, extreme reaction, detectable by common senses, not distinctive in some cultures)

(25) Social Comp - Slave (VF, Severe)

(10) Psych Comp - Fear of dying a useless death (common, moderate)

(15) Psych Comp - Code vs. Killing (will not intentionally kill during arena fights): Uncommon, Total

 

Character #5: A doctor from an enlightened Greek (Athenian) culture

STR: 15 DEX: 13 CON: 10 INT: 18 EGO: 13 PRE: 18 OCV: 4 DCV: 3 OMCV: 3 DMCV: 3 SPD: 2 PD: 6 ED: 6 REC: 7 END: 19 BODY: 11 STUN: 30

Skills

Literacy (native language) Language (Doethi): Fluent Conversation, Literate Paramedics: 13- PS (Healer): 13- KS (Healing): 13- KS (Herbalism): 13-

KS (Alchemy): 13- SS (Chemistry): 13- Power (Alchemy): 13- Inventor (Alchemical Research): 13- Bureaucratics: 13- Teamwork: 10- Cryptography: 13-

Survival (Temperate/Subtropical): 13- Navigation(land): 8- KS (General History): 8- Oratory: 8- Trading: 8- KS (Mathematics): 8- TF: Equines

WF: Short sword WF: dagger WF: Short Bow

+2 (3pt) CSLs with Short Sword

+4 (2pt) CSLs with Shield only to block.

Perks

(2) Contact: Lanista: has useful skills or resources

(2) Social rank (lower nobility)

(3) Ambidexterity (no off-hand penalty)

Powers (Alchemical Formulas)

Potion of Minor Stamina (Healing END 1d6)

Potion of Water Breathing

Potion of Minor Healing (Healing BODY 1d6)

Complications

(25) Social Comp: Slave (VF, Severe)

(5) Psych Comp: Fear of drowning (uncommon, moderate)

(15) Psych comp: fight to the death to protect home city

(10) Psych comp: fight to protect patients

(10) Psych comp: fight to protect other healers

(10) Psych comp: fight to protect children

 

Now, many of you are probably looking at all of the psychological / social complications...Those all pretty much came from an exercise I took the players through during character creation. In an effort to add some depth to the characters, I asked them to come up with 3 things that their characters would be willing to fight for/over, and 1 thing that they'd be willing to die for. I suggested that these things COULD become complications. Now, several of the characters took extra complications (beyond the 50 points) required.

 

Don't get me wrong: the characters are not ALL bad. There are some potentially good story lines to be developed, if I could only get some additional backgroun information from most of the players. I also feel like they're WAY too combat-oriented for 125-point characters. To some extent, I don't blame the players -- we're all new to HERO, and it's somewhat difficult to gauge the "toughness" and "power" of a character compared to some "typical" opponents. Certainly, I'd like the heroes to be slightly tougher than say, a typical orc or goblin, but, I don't want the odds to be stacked so heavily in favor of the PCs that we might as well not bother to get out the dice. As it is, these characters could take on a greater dragon (in HTH only)...they'd lose (because the dragon's defenses - PD, ED, rPD, rED - are high enough that they'd be able to inflict relatively little damage...but the fight would take FAR longer than it should. There are even greater demons that this group of characters would be a challenge for.

[Christopher]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Don't get me wrong: the characters are not ALL bad. There are some potentially good story lines to be developed' date=' if I could only get some additional backgroun information from most of the players. I also feel like they're WAY too combat-oriented for 125-point characters.[/quote']

You estaiblished it as a "Gladiator" campaign. Wich translates too: "Be good in combat, or good enough in comabt related stuff so the others want to keep you alive."

So you got 4 fighters and a medic. Sounds like you got what you requested for me

 

125 points sounds too low for me personally, but it is your game.

 

Certainly' date=' I'd like the heroes to be slightly tougher than say, a typical orc or goblin, but, I don't want the odds to be stacked so heavily in favor of the PCs that we might as well not bother to get out the dice.[/quote']

Simple solution: Limit Defenses.

It doesn't mater that the Orc only hits with 10% of his attacks, if this attack will do body damage. If even one hit hurts, you won't take them easily. Much less 3 of them.

 

As it is' date=' these characters could take on a greater dragon (in HTH only)...they'd lose (because the dragon's defenses - PD, ED, rPD, rED - are high enough that they'd be able to inflict relatively little damage...but the fight would take FAR longer than it should. There are even greater demons that this group of characters would be a challenge for.[/quote']

Simply limit overall OCV/DCV.

You already have controll over weapons and armor.

 

 

Overall I doubt that a 125 Point game without player controll over equipment is the best game to learn hero. I know that either of these to facts would give me problems to produce a balanced character that survives.

[Markdoc]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Overall I doubt that a 125 Point game without player controll over equipment is the best game to learn hero. I know that either of these to facts would give me problems to produce a balanced character that survives.

 

Whereas I regard it as exactly in the sweet spot - just the right place to give a decent range of options, and good survivability without so many options to make it difficult for newbies. Most of my fantasy campaigns have started at 125 points.

It just goes to show that different GMs have different approaches to the game. Hero system gives you the tools to build the game as you envisage it.

 

As for your first comment, I agree 100%. If the GM's introduction was "You're all gladiators" I'd expect to get a bunch of badass fighter types: so in this case he's getting what he asked for. Giving them 125 points, that guideline and aiming for "a little tougher than an orc" is unrealistic, given than an orc weighs in at 43 points. If he wanted characters a little tougher than an orc, he should start them off at 50-60 points ... but I wouldn't expect a lot of background skills at that level!

 

Looking at the characters, however, they actually seem like pretty decent builds: all of them have some skills and perks, none of them seem especially outrageous, and none of them seem terribly tough. One on one, they'd beat the crap out of an orc or an unfortunate guardsman, but then, they're gladiators: professional fighters and killers. I'd expect them to. But at 2 on 1 or three on one? They might prevail ... but then again, they might not.

 

I'm guessing the GM hasn't a great deal of experience running FH, because even a lesser dragon would eat these guys for breakfast (as it should: they're starting characters). The dragon is near invulnerable to their weapons, it's faster than any of them, has a better OCV and a bite which is likely to inflict significant harm through any armour they are likely to possess. They'll have no difficulty hitting it, but they will be hard pressed to do it any significant damage - meantime, it can fly, hit them pretty much at will, and does pretty nasty damage when it does. One grab-and squeeze or Tail bash will do more than enough to stun any of these guys. I'm doubting any fight would go much longer than 24 seconds (say two turns) - even without the fire breath, or mind control powers!

 

Remember, a couple of points of difference in CV and SPD can make an enormous difference as can DEX: landing the first blow is of great importance at this level.

Personally, I think these characters would be fine: I'd be happy to include any of them in a game I ran.

 

cheers, Mark

[Christopher]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Whereas I regard it as exactly in the sweet spot - just the right place to give a decent range of options, and good survivability without so many options to make it difficult for newbies. Most of my fantasy campaigns have started at 125 points.

It just goes to show that different GMs have different approaches to the game. Hero system gives you the tools to build the game as you envisage it.

On top of that 125 can mean a lot of stuff for a lot of games. Some builds supers on that level, by confining the "normals" to the 50 point space. Wich only results in squeezing the ranges very close togehter.

 

But I think he uses established Products (propably the Bestiary?) to compare the characters too. And these ones are designed (partially) to work well with the 175 point guys and thier power-level.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

I would say that the Points are fine. We started in 1st Edition FH back in the day with nearly the same amount of points (adjusted for the 1x-5ed vs 6ed differences in characteristic costs).

 

Comments on the characters. OMCV is a useless stat unless they have powers from the Mental Powers set (ie Telepathy, Mindscan, Mindcontrol etc). DMCV is only useful if they are fighting things that have abilities that I mentioned earlier (ie if they are all Gladiators that escaped from a Mind Flayer City they would have DMCV or need for it).

 

I would recommend that you figure out what the Average OCV, DCV, Damage Class and Defenses (both total def inc Armor and just armor alone, aka total and resistant Defense) once you know those values you can work on a cap for those values. Your PC's have such widely varying OCVs and DCV's it would be hard to write up stuff to challenge them. I usually balance High SPD High OCV/DCV characters by having lower Damage. High Damage High Defense should be slower(ie lower SPD) and have lower OCVs and DCVs etc.

 

All of those PC's strike me as being written up by players who don't have really solid Guidelines. So you ended up with Characters that are all over the place with their Power level.

[Pegasus40218]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

I appreciate the responses so far. A couple of points:

1) The gladiator campaign was the idea of the players. I merely indicated that I wanted to run a low-fantasy (low-magic) campaign and they decided that the gladiator campaign sounded the most interesting. Of course, now that they're all gladiators, all but one of them is focused on trying to escape...but, I'm OK with that, as long as I have some kind of material to work with to develop interesting and fun stories.

 

2) Yes, I (and my players) are relatively new to HERO. I played in one Champions campaign back in 1994 (4th edition), and I started picking up 6th edition last year. This is our third attempt to start a campaign. Attempt #1 imploded when the players created characters who came to hate each other (within the first 4 game sessions) and then tried to kill each other. Game #2, we went with 400 point supers; and with the exception of one player, everyone simply used the templates out of the "Champions Powers" book -- which I found disappointing simply because they made no attempt to be creative. We had a cookie-cutter brick, cookie-cutter speedster, cookie-cutter Energy Projector, etc. In each and every game, I practically had to FORCE them to take any sort of skills / perks / complications (including this one). For the most part, these players have almost always focused exclusively on maximizing combat capabilities, often to the exclusion of everything else. In other systems, using "canned" adventures where the character backgrounds don't matter, it's pretty much expected. I've grown tired of the adventures pretty much devolving to simply moving from one combat to the next with little more than a brief rest in between.

 

3) In my reference to the PCs fighting a greater dragon, I noted that the PCs would lose that fight because of the dragon's superior defenses. I also indicated that it would take longer than it should, but to keep the discussion in context, I DID indicate that I was referring to HTH only (no powers, breath weapon, etc -- simply HTH attacks). To put this in perspective (for anyone who doesn't have the Bestiary, a Greater Dragon has an OCV 7, DCV 7, +2 Overall Skill Levels, +4 w/All Combat. Of course, because of its size, the PCs would be at +8 OCV to hit it...so they will pretty much constantly hit it, but do little to no damage (which is why they would lose).

 

4) From the beginning of the campaign, one of the things I explained (repeatedly) to the players is that I wanted a low-powered game, particularly at the start. I wanted the PCs to have plenty of room to grow and develop into "badasses"; but I didn't want them to start with the ability to mop pretty much anything straight out of the gate. If they're on an espionage / stealth based mission, and run across a guard patrol, I didn't want their first instinct to be to simply wipe the floor with the guards because they can (which is typically what this group does -- combat is the resolution to almost every problem). I wanted them to at least have some hesitation because a trained guard COULD be a significant threat. My reference to Orcs earlier was probably a poor choice. Compare these PCs to ogres (OCV 4, DCV 4, 11PD (2rPD), 8ED (2rED), no CSLs). We did mock combats during character creation where they fought an equal number of ogres -- the fight wasn't even close. I think one PC got knocked out, the others suffered little or no damage (the ogres could only hit a couple of the characters on a 6 or less)...So, ogres aren't even a threat (and applying the characteristic maxima for humans, a "stock" ogre is built on 150 points [13 points over the listing in the bestiary -- 10 for strength and 3 for CON]).

 

Quite honestly, one of my motivations for wanting to limit the PCs starting power-level is simple: the time I have to prepare for games. I typically work between 50-60 hours per week, and my life would be much simpler if I could pull some creatures from the bestiary without having to modify the snot out of them to make them a challenge.

 

Tasha, you recommended figuring out what the average OCV, DCV, DC and DEF are. My question: average for what? The PCs? Their opponents?

 

One of the things I've struggled with is this: being new to the system, I have no sense of what's "good", "bad", or "outrageous". Our first attempt at the gladiator campaign, the PCs were built on 175 points. 4 of the PCs had OCVs and DCVs of 8 or higher. Add in CSLs, and I had characters capable of jacking up their OCV or DCV into the 13 to 15 range. The players also built stats and skills to maximize DCs at the same time; so there wasn't a balance between a character who could hit often, doing a little damage; or a bruiser who maybe didn't hit as often but did more damage. It was pretty much, hit all the time, clobber the snot out of the target, and have such a high DCV that they'd never get hit in return. Of course, being relatively new, I didn't recognize the significance of some of the stats (or the influence of the CSLs) until we started trying to play...but when a party of starting characters wipe out an equal number of ogres in a single turn (12 seconds); I start thinking it's going to be difficult to run a gritty and challenging game.

 

Now, being new to GMing HERO, there may be a lot of opportunities that I'm missing. I've been reading one of the other threads (I believe it's entitled "Ars Tactica") about combat tactics in HERO, so I can get a better understanding of how to best take advantage of various combat maneuvers and such, and I have picked up a few tricks...but then, as I mentioned earlier, I'm trying to keep the game from devolving into simply meadering from one combat to the next.

 

Some DMs would approach this by running a game that required them to constantly use skills that they either don't have or aren't good at. I don't think that would be any fun either; neither for me nor my players. I'm seriously struggling to find the balance that I'm looking for.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

I mean the average for the PC's. It doesn't really matter what numbers you set because stuff is relative and fairly linear. Once you set the PC's averages and know their Maximums you can then tailor Bad guys that will challenge, but not totally wipe your party. Also, you can figure when the bad guys are too weak (though sometimes it's fun to put your heroes up against a ton of easy to defeat guys)

 

For a Standard Heroic Level game I usually set the levels around the following

OCV 7-8 (This DOES include Skill Levels) Most PC's should have a base of 5 and enough skill levels to get to 7 or 8

DCV 6-7 (This also included Skill Levels) Again the base should be 5 with enough skill levels to reach 6 or 7

Spd 3

Damage Class 4-7, Most PCs should have a weapon that can regularly throw 1 1/2 D6 Killing (this includes strength)

Defense (PD) 4-6

Defense (ED) 3-5

Armor (rPD and rED)3-5 (this does add to base PD and ED, and includes the Combat Luck Talent.

Skill rolls should be 12- to 14- (also includes skill levels).

 

Look up "Characteristic Maxima" in the index. Anything that has a Maximum of 20 should on average be a 13 with Ego being the exception. Ego should be ignored unless the PC wants a better roll for "Pushing"

 

I am a bit tired and queasy at the moment. If this needs clarification. I'll check on it tomorrow and answer any questions. I"ll post a generic guy tomorrow when I am not falling asleep in my chair

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

One of the things I've struggled with is this: being new to the system, I have no sense of what's "good", "bad", or "outrageous". Our first attempt at the gladiator campaign, the PCs were built on 175 points. 4 of the PCs had OCVs and DCVs of 8 or higher. Add in CSLs, and I had characters capable of jacking up their OCV or DCV into the 13 to 15 range. The players also built stats and skills to maximize DCs at the same time; so there wasn't a balance between a character who could hit often, doing a little damage; or a bruiser who maybe didn't hit as often but did more damage. It was pretty much, hit all the time, clobber the snot out of the target, and have such a high DCV that they'd never get hit in return. Of course, being relatively new, I didn't recognize the significance of some of the stats (or the influence of the CSLs) until we started trying to play...but when a party of starting characters wipe out an equal number of ogres in a single turn (12 seconds); I start thinking it's going to be difficult to run a gritty and challenging game.

 

This comes with time running the system. Nothing else will get you there. Discussions with the experts here can get you there faster, but ultimately you have to find your own personal "happy medium" by running the system and allowing your players to run rampshod all over you, then re-design things and end up with a total party wipe, rinse and repeat until you find your group's sweet spot. My suggestion is to get one or two of your most trusted roleplayers together for some playtest sessions. Have them make various types of characters and varying power levels to see how they perform. To see what kind of challenges they can overcome and which they cannot. Run mock combats with the characters vs various foes and see how things turn out. This will tell you what kinds of Combat Values are overwhelming, how the dice probabilities play out in reality, how damage and defense interact and gets you used to how the Speed and Turn system functions. All of these things are essential in determining the basic power level of the games you wish to run. Master these things and the rest will pretty much fall into place.

 

Now, being new to GMing HERO, there may be a lot of opportunities that I'm missing. I've been reading one of the other threads (I believe it's entitled "Ars Tactica") about combat tactics in HERO, so I can get a better understanding of how to best take advantage of various combat maneuvers and such, and I have picked up a few tricks...but then, as I mentioned earlier, I'm trying to keep the game from devolving into simply meadering from one combat to the next.

 

The sheer number of combat options available in HERO is in my opinion why HERO is one of the best games out there. Of course most RPG's include such tactical considerations these days, but HERO was one of the first, and few systems do it as well as HERO. It is absolutely imperative that you familiarize yourself with all of the tactical options available, not only because you will be running the creatures and npc's of your campaign world, but because your players are eventually going to figure these things out and start hitting you with them all the time. And it will be something simple that will make all the difference, such as a player discovering that the DCV bonus from using a shield shift over to an OCV bonus when using that shield to perform a Block maneuver. +2 OCV to block with a medium shield. Oh and lets not forget that +1 pt Weapon Element, Use Art with Shield, so now the character can use their medium shield (+2 CV) with his Martial Art's Martial Block manuver which gives a +2 to OCV and +2 to DCV. Blocking with the medium shield and Martial Block, +4 OCV to Block. Look on the opponents face when you successfully block their strongest attack: Priceless.

 

That is one simple example of many found in the system.

 

Some DMs would approach this by running a game that required them to constantly use skills that they either don't have or aren't good at. I don't think that would be any fun either; neither for me nor my players. I'm seriously struggling to find the balance that I'm looking for.

 

Here's the thing about that: The way Hero works, the character can easily obtain new skills that they need for their adventuring career. The availability of these skills is up to you as the GM. 3 character points for a whole new skill isn't very much. In my last fantasy campaign, pretty much all the characters ended up with a plethora of skills they purchased over time. The characters (with one exception) started out fairly focused in their areas (a Rogue, a Mentalist and a Pirate...the only one with a good spread of skills outside their profession was the Pirate) but by mid-campaign had very, very well-rounded skill sets. The rogue ended up rounding out his combat capabilities somewhat and increased his social skills (which were non-existent at the start of the game) the Mentalist significantly expanded her academic capabilities and the Pirate became even more well-rounded and turned into sort of a Jane-of-all-Trades. And they still managed to make themselves vastly more powerful within their field of expertise as well.

 

These issues are not insurmountable. Just be aware you are asking about issues that usually take a few years of regular play to iron out. Most of us on these boards have been playing this game for 10 years or longer in many cases, so we are well-passed that juncture in our hobby. Don't worry you'll get there. Just make sure you have fun along the way.

[Christopher]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

1) The gladiator campaign was the idea of the players. I merely indicated that I wanted to run a low-fantasy (low-magic) campaign and they decided that the gladiator campaign sounded the most interesting. Of course, now that they're all gladiators, all but one of them is focused on trying to escape...but, I'm OK with that, as long as I have some kind of material to work with to develop interesting and fun stories.

 

2) Yes, I (and my players) are relatively new to HERO. I played in one Champions campaign back in 1994 (4th edition), and I started picking up 6th edition last year. This is our third attempt to start a campaign. Attempt #1 imploded when the players created characters who came to hate each other (within the first 4 game sessions) and then tried to kill each other. Game #2, we went with 400 point supers; and with the exception of one player, everyone simply used the templates out of the "Champions Powers" book -- which I found disappointing simply because they made no attempt to be creative. We had a cookie-cutter brick, cookie-cutter speedster, cookie-cutter Energy Projector, etc. In each and every game, I practically had to FORCE them to take any sort of skills / perks / complications (including this one). For the most part, these players have almost always focused exclusively on maximizing combat capabilities, often to the exclusion of everything else. In other systems, using "canned" adventures where the character backgrounds don't matter, it's pretty much expected. I've grown tired of the adventures pretty much devolving to simply moving from one combat to the next with little more than a brief rest in between.

 

4) From the beginning of the campaign, one of the things I explained (repeatedly) to the players is that I wanted a low-powered game, particularly at the start. I wanted the PCs to have plenty of room to grow and develop into "badasses"; but I didn't want them to start with the ability to mop pretty much anything straight out of the gate. If they're on an espionage / stealth based mission, and run across a guard patrol, I didn't want their first instinct to be to simply wipe the floor with the guards because they can (which is typically what this group does -- combat is the resolution to almost every problem). I wanted them to at least have some hesitation because a trained guard COULD be a significant threat.

I think I noticed the real problem:

You and your players have propably incompatible playing styles.

 

They want Hack&Slash.

You want Roleplay, Skill use and Tactics.

 

It will be next to impossible to force them into roleplaying/skill use/tactics. No Rule system, no amount of campaign limits could ever do that.

And even if you manage to force them to play moderate characters, this might result in them not enjoing the game.

 

Compare these PCs to ogres (OCV 4' date=' DCV 4, 11PD (2rPD), 8ED (2rED), no CSLs). We did mock combats during character creation where they fought an equal number of ogres -- the fight wasn't even close. I think one PC got knocked out, the others suffered little or no damage (the ogres could only hit a couple of the characters on a 6 or less)...So, ogres aren't even a threat (and applying the characteristic maxima for humans, a "stock" ogre is built on 150 points [13 points over the listing in the bestiary -- 10 for strength and 3 for CON']).

The reason is obvious: The ogres were built to (certain) campaign limits. The PC's not.

a 100 Point combat Monster will beat a 200 point Skill Monster in combat. Simply because one invested 100 points into combat ability, while the other only invested 50.

 

Note that these ogres were propably build to be a medium challenge for Heroic Character (175 points).

 

Perhaps the guidelines from 6E1 35 help:

If you build PC's to the limits of "Competent Normals" (6 CV, 8 DC, 8 Def, half Resistant) and keep in mind that you can't be top in all of those at once (either top DCV or top Defenses; and either top OCV or top DC) things could be more even.

 

 

 

One of the things I've struggled with is this: being new to the system' date=' I have no sense of what's "good", "bad", or "outrageous". Our first attempt at the gladiator campaign, the PCs were built on 175 points. 4 of the PCs had OCVs and DCVs of 8 or higher. Add in CSLs, and I had characters capable of jacking up their OCV or DCV into the 13 to 15 range.[/quote']

Compare them to the guidelines on 6E1 35

They sound like the overshoot them - by a factor of two.

 

Also always keep in mind that CSL, Talents that increase Damage and Martial Arts are limited combat ability. They count fully towards limits.

[Orion]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

A suggestion to get the players to take skills and develop a bit of background:

 

1. Have everyone develop a 15-year-old kid. They have to decide the family members, profession of family, whether they live in a big city or rural village, what job they are doing as an apprentice, etc. Right here you get a professional skill at a very basic level from knowing what the parents do, and maybe something in a different skill set from the apprenticeship. You have at least one area knowledge as well at low level.

 

2. Next, have them determine what happens over the next 2-4 years. They've learned a little of whatever profession they've chosen, a little more of the world, and may have moved out from the parent's place to whoever is teaching them their trade.

 

3. Jump forward 5 years at a time from here, slowly developing what the character has been doing all along. If you go far enough, start reducing physical skills because of advancing age.

 

4. The game starts. Everyone gets tossed into a cell and are told they are now gladiators. Or a lightning bolt hits you and you suddenly gain super powers. Or you've just been knighted at the end of a large battle.

 

 

Sure, this takes longer, but it will ensure that at least some background is developed, and that each character has a reasonable set of non-combat skills. Now maybe the players aren't interested in spending any points on skills - no problem. They develop the 15 year old kid on 50 points, and you assign skills and knowledge based on their background. At age 18, give them 15 more points to spend as they like, and then give them 5 more points of skills that you chose.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

As promised a Generic Gladiator.

The character would be a bit more capable if some of the primary stats were lowered to 10. Also, raising the campaign PowerPoint limit would also make for more rounded characters.

 

[b]Genericus the Bold - [/b]

[b][u]VAL[/u]   [u]CHA[/u]   [u]Cost[/u]   [u]Total[/u]   [u]Roll[/u]      [u]Notes[/u][/b]
13    STR     3   13      12-       HTH Damage 2 1/2d6  END [3]
13    DEX     6   13      12-       
13    CON     3   13      12-
13    BODY    3   13      
13    INT     3   13      12-       PER Roll 12-
13    EGO     3   13      12-       
13    PRE     3   13      12-       PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6
5    OCV     10   5          
5    DCV     10   5          
3    OMCV     0   3          
3    DMCV     0   3          
5    PD      3   5/11             5/11 PD (0/6 rPD)
4    ED      2   4/10             4/10 ED (0/6 rED)
3    SPD     10   3                 Phases:  4, 8, 12
7    REC     3   7
30    END     2   30
30    STUN    5   30
14    RUN      2   14m                END [1]
4    SWIM     0   4m                END [1]
4    LEAP     0   4m                4m forward, 2m upward

[b]CHA Cost: 71[/b]



[b][u]Cost[/u]   [u]SKILLS[/u][/b]
8      WF:  Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons, Nets, Sling, Thrown Chain & Rope Weapons, Thrown Sword
2      Survival (Urban) 12-
3      Sleight Of Hand 12-
2      PS: Gladiator 11-
3      Oratory 12-
0      Language:  Native Barbarian Tongue (idiomatic) (4 Active Points)
2      Language:  "Roman Latin" (fluent conversation)
2      Gambling (Sports Betting) 12-
3      Fast Draw:  Swords/ Blades 12-
10      +1 with All Attacks
10      +2 with a large group of attacks
3      Breakfall 12-

[b]SKILLS Cost: 48[/b]


[b][u]Cost[/u]   [u]TALENTS[/u][/b]
6      Combat Luck (3 PD/3 ED)

[b]TALENTS Cost: 6[/b]
[b][u]Value[/u]  [u]COMPLICATIONS[/u][/b]
10     Hunted:  Former Master Infrequently (Mo Pow; NCI; Watching)
5     Social Complication:  Former Slave (Gladiator) Infrequently, Minor
10     Rivalry:  Professional (Gladitorial Rival; Rival is As Powerful; Rival is a Player Character; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Aware of Rivalry)

[b]COMPLICATIONS Points: 25[/b]

Base Pts: 125
Exp Required: 0
Total Exp Available: 0
Exp Unspent: 0
Total Character Cost: 125

[gojira]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Neat, I like the complications especially. Complications are often the difference between a two dimensional cutout of a character, and some more like a fully rounded character.

 

Other ideas for complications, just off the top of my head, because it seems like the player group could use a few more thoughts in that direction:

 

Soc Lim: Sworn vengeance on captors.

 

Soc Lim: Must find lost family.

 

Soc Lim: Foreigner/Barbarian in a new land.

 

Soc Lim: Psychological Tramua--Berserk in combat

 

Phys Lim: Old wound--side effect Stun/Endurance/-Dex/-Movement, sometime occurs in combat

 

Phys Lim: Scaring/Hideous Scaring

 

Phys Lim: Maimed: Lost eye, hand, foot, etc.

 

I didn't put any point costs, I left it for you and the players to work out the exact details. But I think you can see that if you put yourself in the shoes of your character, and you think "Hmm, what sort of difficulties is this person likely to encounter," you can think of lots of things other than "fight for friends."

[Pegasus40218]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Thanks to everyone for their input. Many good suggestions and observations.

Christopher, you are correct: I and most of my players have very different play styles. When I'm not GMing, we typically play Pathfinder or D&D4e. I create backgrounds for all of my characters, even though they won't matter since they're running canned "adventure paths". One other player will typically come up with at least the outlines of some background. The others tend to plan out every skill point, feat, power, and spell they're going to pick from 1st level through 20th level. I, instead, wait to see how the campaign develops, and choose skills and abilities that make sense for the character, or to fill gaps in party capabilities (I often end up playing the characters with healing abilities, since they tend to not be as powerful in combat).

I've been gaming for over 30 years (I started when I was 10), and I guess I've been relatively fortunate with the gaming groups I've played in over the years. There have been some fantastic campaigns...and I've found that the quality of the campaign depended less on the talent/skill of the GM (though it's definitely a factor) than the quality of the players. Great players can carry a campaign when the GM is struggling...and the best and most memorable adventures (in my opinion) were not the ones where we completely outclassed our opponents and mopped the floor with them because we were so powerful. They were the ones where things went wrong, and we had to overcome adversity, injury, or long odds to eke out a victory, even if that victory was simply escaping with our lives.

I've been reading a thread on this board where everyone is posting "quotes of the week". I started at the beginning of the thread, and I'm somewhere in the neighborhood of post #2175 (out of about 11250 -- I plan to post some of my own great quotes when I get caught up to the current posts), and there's some GREAT stuff in there. One of the things I'm trying to do with my players is give them the opportunity to have THAT kind of gaming experience. I'd love for them to think back to "that gladiator campaign", and vividly remember those characters and some of the things they accomplished and the adventures they had! I look back on the Pathfinder and D&D campaigns / adventures over the past couple of years, and I can remember a couple of the characters that I've created and played, very few of the other characters, and very little of what we did (and I take notes during play to keep track of the NPCs and events so I know what's going on in the story).

Tasha,

The "generic gladiator" you provided is VERY helpful, and at a glance looks to be about the power level I was hoping for in the campaign. One thing I've noticed, at least among the players in my group is that they NEVER take anything but 2 or 3-point CSLs. I think this stems from the fact that 99.9% of the time, a character is going to have their weapon of choice available, so why spend the extra 2 points on a 5-point CSL when you'll hardly ever have call to use it? And a 10-point CSL? Forget it! With the min/max mentality, that's going to be a hard sell at best...and that's not a criticism of the build you provided! That's simply where my current expectations of my players are.

Also, I just noticed the link you had at the bottom of at least one of your previous posts: "How to Build Hero System Characters and Evaluate their Powerlevels". WHAT A GODSEND!!! I wish I had seen this sooner! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! (bookmarked the blog page)

Gojira,

I agree completely: the complications are a big part of what makes HERO characters interesting (and what seems to be lacking in so many other game systems). It also usually tends to be a big part of a character's background.

Without trying to be overly critical of HERO 6E, as someone trying to learn the system, the one thing I have found disappointing is the lack of guidance in the way of "hard numbers" for different types of games / genres. The main books recommend implementing "effectiveness caps" but don't provide any real information on what that might look like nor any guidance on how to evaluate characters to ensure that they adhere to those caps. I've purchased most of the genre books, and read every one of them from cover-to-cover hoping to glean enough information on how to pull off the campaign I'm trying to run; but obviously, I've been coming up short (at least of my own expectations).

If someone could pull together a book/pdf of play-tested systems with guidance for setting up the effectiveness caps for various genres to help us noobs, I can guarantee at least one sale...and it would probably also make the system more accessible to gamers who are more familiar with more "fixed" (level-based) systems. It wouldn't have to go into great detail about a particular genre...maybe even simply providing 1 or 2 "generic" characters (like Tasha's gladiator) would be enough in some instances. Most useful would be guidance on how to evaluate the characters that the players create to make sure that they're "balanced" under each genre/system and at least some of the "gotcha"s to look for. (Like combining shields with martial arts / martial block which NuSoardGraphite referenced -- the type of thing a beginning GM is very likely to miss.

[gojira]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Thanks to everyone for their input. Many good suggestions and observations.

 

Christopher, you are correct: I and most of my players have very different play styles. When I'm not GMing, we typically play Pathfinder or D&D4e. I create backgrounds for all of my characters, even though they won't matter since they're running canned "adventure paths". One other player will typically come up with at least the outlines of some background. The others tend to plan out every skill point, feat, power, and spell they're going to pick from 1st level through 20th level. I, instead, wait to see how the campaign develops, and choose skills and abilities that make sense for the character, or to fill gaps in party capabilities (I often end up playing the characters with healing abilities, since they tend to not be as powerful in combat).

 

I've been gaming for over 30 years (I started when I was 10), and I guess I've been relatively fortunate with the gaming groups I've played in over the years. There have been some fantastic campaigns...and I've found that the quality of the campaign depended less on the talent/skill of the GM (though it's definitely a factor) than the quality of the players. Great players can carry a campaign when the GM is struggling...and the best and most memorable adventures (in my opinion) were not the ones where we completely outclassed our opponents and mopped the floor with them because we were so powerful. They were the ones where things went wrong, and we had to overcome adversity, injury, or long odds to eke out a victory, even if that victory was simply escaping with our lives.

 

I've been reading a thread on this board where everyone is posting "quotes of the week". I started at the beginning of the thread, and I'm somewhere in the neighborhood of post #2175 (out of about 11250 -- I plan to post some of my own great quotes when I get caught up to the current posts), and there's some GREAT stuff in there. One of the things I'm trying to do with my players is give them the opportunity to have THAT kind of gaming experience. I'd love for them to think back to "that gladiator campaign", and vividly remember those characters and some of the things they accomplished and the adventures they had! I look back on the Pathfinder and D&D campaigns / adventures over the past couple of years, and I can remember a couple of the characters that I've created and played, very few of the other characters, and very little of what we did (and I take notes during play to keep track of the NPCs and events so I know what's going on in the story).

 

Tasha,

 

The "generic gladiator" you provided is VERY helpful, and at a glance looks to be about the power level I was hoping for in the campaign. One thing I've noticed, at least among the players in my group is that they NEVER take anything but 2 or 3-point CSLs. I think this stems from the fact that 99.9% of the time, a character is going to have their weapon of choice available, so why spend the extra 2 points on a 5-point CSL when you'll hardly ever have call to use it? And a 10-point CSL? Forget it! With the min/max mentality, that's going to be a hard sell at best...and that's not a criticism of the build you provided! That's simply where my current expectations of my players are.

 

Also, I just noticed the link you had at the bottom of at least one of your previous posts: "How to Build Hero System Characters and Evaluate their Powerlevels". WHAT A GODSEND!!! I wish I had seen this sooner! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! (bookmarked the blog page)

 

Gojira,

 

I agree completely: the complications are a big part of what makes HERO characters interesting (and what seems to be lacking in so many other game systems). It also usually tends to be a big part of a character's background.

 

Without trying to be overly critical of HERO 6E, as someone trying to learn the system, the one thing I have found disappointing is the lack of guidance in the way of "hard numbers" for different types of games / genres. The main books recommend implementing "effectiveness caps" but don't provide any real information on what that might look like nor any guidance on how to evaluate characters to ensure that they adhere to those caps. I've purchased most of the genre books, and read every one of them from cover-to-cover hoping to glean enough information on how to pull off the campaign I'm trying to run; but obviously, I've been coming up short (at least of my own expectations).

 

If someone could pull together a book/pdf of play-tested systems with guidance for setting up the effectiveness caps for various genres to help us noobs, I can guarantee at least one sale...and it would probably also make the system more accessible to gamers who are more familiar with more "fixed" (level-based) systems. It wouldn't have to go into great detail about a particular genre...maybe even simply providing 1 or 2 "generic" characters (like Tasha's gladiator) would be enough in some instances. Most useful would be guidance on how to evaluate the characters that the players create to make sure that they're "balanced" under each genre/system and at least some of the "gotcha"s to look for. (Like combining shields with martial arts / martial block which NuSoardGraphite referenced -- the type of thing a beginning GM is very likely to miss.

 

 

I did some reformatting to make your post easier to read.

[gojira]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Now that I've been able to read your reply...

 

Without trying to be overly critical of HERO 6E, as someone trying to learn the system, the one thing I have found disappointing is the lack of guidance in the way of "hard numbers" for different types of games / genres. The main books recommend implementing "effectiveness caps" but don't provide any real information on what that might look like nor any guidance on how to evaluate characters to ensure that they adhere to those caps.

 

It's been commented here, even lately, that the Hero System could benefit from some advice on getting started for beginners. So you are not alone in that observation. OTOH, a way to get started is fairly obvious:

 

1. Buy a pre-made setting

2. Use that as-is

 

Really if you're new it's the best way. All the hard work is done for you, all you have to do is follow along. After you've seen a couple of planned out settings, and GM'd them for players, you'll in a much better position to make your own from scratch.

 

Tuala Morn is very full featured, and contains a lot of Do. It. This. Way. Which means it shows you how to balance things by setting limits, which gives you clues as to what sorts of things need to be limited (like Combat Luck).

 

The Valdorian Age is another neat setting. It's a little more free-wheeling than Tuala Morn, and might require more GM interpretation, so it might be better to tackle second. There's a debt mechanic for spell casters that leaves a lot of room for roleplay, it's very mechanics light, but might be a struggle along with new rules.

 

 

I've purchased most of the genre books, and read every one of them from cover-to-cover hoping to glean enough information on how to pull off the campaign I'm trying to run; but obviously, I've been coming up short (at least of my own expectations).

 

 

There's at least one class of Hero GM (and I myself at least partially fall into this category) that expects their homebrew stuff to look just as good as the premade settings. Which is kind of an unrealistic expectation. We're not doing this as our day job, we have to come up with ideas on a much more limited time budget. So I'm wondering if you think you might be in the same boat.

 

But a prefab setting is much easier.