GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

[Territan]

Sadly, I wish that was an exaggeration.

 

I'm running what I would now classify as a "long-running" Champions campaign. I'd tried to reason out a good bit of the campaign city (Baltimore, 'cos it's what I know), the changes from the event that started giving people superpowers (in 1961), a few organizations that might be working with or against the player characters, and establishing an ecosystem for the characters. And in most of the cases I've done a good job. Of the four regular players, three have settled into that ecosystem and interact with it on reasonably friendly terms.

 

Then there's that fourth. Or as he might be known, that player.

 

He's the one that has looked casually at what the game as I've created it has to offer, yawned, and is trying to sweep it aside for his own amusement, up to and including interplanetary travel in a spaceship/base (he hasn't brought up shag carpeting, mirrored ceilings, revolving beds, or naked lady mud-flaps yet) and a take on the "personal army" best described as a "misogynistic anime geek's wet dream." (Hence the future concerns about shag carpeting, mirrored ceilings, revolving beds, and naked lady mud-flats.) And he's not afraid to make things about him. What's more, he says that these decisions are because of things that happened in the game—it's hard not to ask him "Which, mine or the one you hallucinated?", and it may yet come to that.

 

Tempting as it is to give him what he wants good and hard, much the same way you might feed a six-year-old an entire bag of candy or force a 14-year-old to smoke a whole box of cigars in one sitting, I worry that doing so would be a scorched-earth response; the necessary damage it would do to his character would have repercussions in the game world. Decisions he's made already will have horrible consequences which he has yet to face. What he's planning next

 

And if there's anything I've learned, a good game world is not something you use once and throw away.

 

I think I can be a little more patient with him, trying to figure out where he got these hairpin ideas, but I can see that road running out in the near future. Has anyone else been in this situation? And how did you handle it aside from ending the game (don't wanna), kicking the problem player out (politically tricky), resorting to violence (legally sticky), or running a "Lost in Space" scenario on him (Conveniently forget to mention the Navigation (Space) skill while he's assembling all this, and let him push the button)?

[Cygnia]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

Why would it be politically tricky to kick him out? Seriously, life is too short to put up with jerks in games. And if the rest of the group is unwilling to back you up, oh well.

 

Geek Social Fallacies

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

I had one of those in my current campaign. And yes, I knew it would be "politically tricky" to kick him out.

 

I kicked him out very hard and very publicly, and made sure everyone knew exactly why I was doing it: his behavior was completely unacceptable.

 

Then I carried on with business as usual. That was just prior to game session #7; last weekend I ran #12, and I still have all the players who witnessed my ogrish behavior. I believe that if you run a good game and handle these things in an up-front forthright manner, it'll work out.

[Doc Samson]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

I can tell by what you wrote that you already know the answers. Games are supposed to be fun, if they aren't something is wrong. Don't be defensive, just run the game to the best of your ability while keeping everyone's fun (including your own) in mind. When situations arise where you can't give the players what they want because it will ruin the game, do what is best for the game and the group's enjoyment.

 

Short version, if it is best for the game and the group that a player has to switch characters then so be it. If it is best for everyone to switch players, then sometimes that has to happen too.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

Talk to him away from the other players. Ask him if he really wants to play in this game. Ask him what, in the game, made him come to these conclusions/make these decisions.

[Christopher]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

or running a "Lost in Space" scenario on him (Conveniently forget to mention the Navigation (Space) skill while he's assembling all this' date=' and let him push the button)?[/quote']

Unless he has some complication that says his character is overconfident/forgetfull this is a really bad idea. Players should always have transparent rules, doing that could seriously upset the other players. Perhaps even more than kicking him out.

[teh bunneh]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

I'd have a good, long talk with him, in private. Tell him what you expect in the game, and find out what he expects. Tell him, in no uncertain terms, that his playstyle/character is not fitting in with your vision of the game. Maybe there's a compromise you can work out. But in the end, it's your game. If he needs to change characters to have something a little more fitting, so be it.

 

And if you can't work something out, gently disinvite him from your game. I say "gently" and I mean it. Sometimes, a few years later, he'll have worked out his issues and maybe you'll want him back. Burning bridges is rarely good for anyone.

[dmjalund]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

..and if that doesn't work - kill him and take his stuff!

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

Sometimes you just have to sit this kind of player down and tell them straight out, "Look, if you want to do those sort of things, create your own campaign world and GM it. In the meantime, it would be best that you either abide by the ground rules we all agreed to at the beginning of all this or find something else to do with your Saturday nights."

[teh bunneh]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

..and if that doesn't work - kill him and take his stuff!

 

Sew his skin into a dice bag and carve his skull into a dice rolling cup!

[Orion]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

I agree with the "just talk to him" advice, if you think it would even work with this player.

 

When I first started playing Orion as a character, he wanted to track down some villain organization in his spare time. GM was okay with this. I assumed it would be part of the ongoing story, and in a few sessions we'd move on them as a group. But then I kept agitating to go after them and do stuff, and the GM really wasn't interested in it, and I never got anywhere. After a couple sessions of this, the GM takes his GMPC and Mary Sues the destruction of the entire villain base so I wouldn't have any reason to keep on gathering info on them. Torgued me off at the time.

 

I wasn't being a disruptive player, but I was disrupting his plans. Whereas I wanted to be proactive and go after my hunted, he wanted the campaign to be completely reactive in nature - hang around the mansion until someone attacks the city. We never had a document or session in which the world was laid out, playing style was discussed, or anything. If we had, it would have been easier on both of us.

 

But if after a good talk, in which the player fully understands the type of campaign the GM is trying to run, the player continues to disrupt? Kick him out on his butt.

[bluesguy]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

he wanted the campaign to be completely reactive in nature - hang around the mansion until someone attacks the city. We never had a document or session in which the world was laid out' date=' playing style was discussed, or anything. If we had, it would have been easier on both of us.[/quote']

 

This is absolutely key to a good gaming experience.

 

With the group I GM we have a very serious Fantasy Hero game with epic plots & bad guys; plots w/in plots and things are not always as they seem. As a GM that takes a lot of work. And for the players it takes a lot of work. There is a ton of role playing (50% role playing & 50% combat) involved and we have fun.

 

For the summer I am GMin our group in a Superhero setting based on the Champions Universe but taking place in the Twin Cities. I have told them it is a Silver Age comic style game. Role playing will take place in and around the combat (more like 25% role playing & 75% combat). As my wife says "Oh boy Champions... Lots of property damage!" This is our cut loose game and one where I as a GM can 'lay back' a bit more.

[Territan]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

For those following this thread, confounded by my silence, I hereby respond (yawn alert the media lol):

 

I did have a talk with him. It was, oddly enough, in the minutes before a session of Marvel (TSR Advanced edition) was about to start—and no, someone else was running that.

 

I specifically asked about that "personal army" he wanted. The reason he gave was that one of the other PCs, a wealthy industrialist in his secret identity, occasionally calls upon contacts in his family's company for assays and little bits of examination. And the player was watching anime recently. And the player got jealous.

 

Yes, it sounds logically like the character might be jealous (psych complications: Overconfident, Womanizing), but the player has complained about similar things in other games, how he has the weakest weapons, fewest hit points, and so on and so on ad nauseam, even when he's in the best position of anyone in the group. I need to make him understand that the point-based system is itself a balancing factor: he has things he's paid for (like the 60 STR, supersonic flight, the highest resistant defenses of the bunch, and more life support than even he's found a use for yet), and the other guy has things that he paid for (like 10 points in Wealth, 24 points for the organizational contacts in his family's business and 23 points for a personal Follower).

 

The group has a base (which most of them have bought into) It has some personnel (and given its size, perhaps it needs more). Maybe that's what he's jealous of? (Except the rich character paid 4 points into that. He paid 5. Someone else has paid 15. I may want to encourage more contributions.)

 

Meanwhile, the group's "Sniveler" (for those Cosmic Encounter fans) has the greatest damage potential and highest general defenses of the group. And still wants a personal army. Of women. In maid's uniforms. And the Resurrection adder in addition to his Healing power (which I said yes to briefly, but need to take away because the exception case he gave me is about as common as "the sun not rising in the east"). And the interplanetary spacecraft (and hoo boy, am I looking forward to the story behind that one. ).

 

This is what I've got to work with.

 

In fact, he's not the only one with competition issues. I'd mentioned the base rush earlier; they want private bases and the group's Paranoid wants to put deathtraps in his.

 

And kicking him out would be awkward because of the group's division. Of the four players I've got there, one followed me from a previous group (and among his issues there are some doozies, but that's for another rant). The other three started in a different circle and have stronger ties with each other than with me. Were I to kick the one out, the other two would likely follow.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

Sounds like you may need to talk to the entire group and tell them that it's not a competition. RPGs are cooperative.

[Cygnia]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

Are any of you legitimate friends outside of gaming? Because, if these are your players, no gaming is worth these headaches.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

I specifically asked about that "personal army" he wanted. The reason he gave was that one of the other PCs, a wealthy industrialist in his secret identity, occasionally calls upon contacts in his family's company for assays and little bits of examination. And the player was watching anime recently. And the player got jealous.

 

Yes, it sounds logically like the character might be jealous (psych complications: Overconfident, Womanizing), but the player has complained about similar things in other games, how he has the weakest weapons, fewest hit points, and so on and so on ad nauseam, even when he's in the best position of anyone in the group. I need to make him understand that the point-based system is itself a balancing factor: he has things he's paid for (like the 60 STR, supersonic flight, the highest resistant defenses of the bunch, and more life support than even he's found a use for yet), and the other guy has things that he paid for (like 10 points in Wealth, 24 points for the organizational contacts in his family's business and 23 points for a personal Follower).

 

The point system seems like the solution. Sure you can have a private army. All you need to do is invest your character points into it. How committed are you to this private army? The usual approach would be to invest your XP into these followers but, if you're set on it quicker, we could discuss repurposing some existing points.

 

It seems he is not getting the benefits of Life Support - maybe run some NND opponents before giving him the choice of ditching those points for his army.

 

The group has a base (which most of them have bought into) It has some personnel (and given its size' date=' perhaps it needs more). Maybe that's what he's jealous of? (Except the rich character paid 4 points into that. He paid 5. Someone else has paid 15. I may want to encourage more contributions.)[/quote']

 

Maybe it's time to tax xp of those who have not made adequate contributions, or lay down the law that the availability and functionality of the base will be reduced until it's paid for.

 

Meanwhile' date=' the group's "Sniveler" (for those [i']Cosmic Encounter[/i] fans) has the greatest damage potential and highest general defenses of the group. And still wants a personal army. Of women. In maid's uniforms. And the Resurrection adder in addition to his Healing power (which I said yes to briefly, but need to take away because the exception case he gave me is about as common as "the sun not rising in the east"). And the interplanetary spacecraft (and hoo boy, am I looking forward to the story behind that one. ).

 

Are his strengths highlighted in game? Maybe it's time for some of the other players to be jealous of his abilities. Resurrection? Were you planning on scenarios that kill off the fellow with Life Support and the highest defenses in the first place? If not, does it matter how uncommon the fail condition is? And there's nothing wrong with telling the player, first, that the condition he has selected is too infrequent (and, if you allowed that, you'd also have to allow similarly likely items as an NND defense - for villains as well as PC's). For that matter, I would discuss the fact that the points drive events in the game. If the character has Resurrection, the player is basically asking for his character to be killed so he can show off his Resurrection. If he has Regeneration, he should take BOD so he can show off his Regen.

 

In fact' date=' he's not the only one with competition issues. I'd mentioned the base rush earlier; they want private bases and the group's Paranoid wants to put deathtraps in his.[/quote']

 

So let them all spend XP on private bases. A discussion of super HERO vs super VILLAIN may merit some discussion in regards to the deathtraps. Maybe a iscussion of WHY everyone wants private bases might be in order. Do they expect the game to become player vs player? Do they expect to have a bunch of solo adventures? The answer may be as simple as "guys, you will never see value from those points in play".

[GoldenAge]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

Sounds like you may need to talk to the entire group and tell them that it's not a competition. RPGs are cooperative.

Or... Take a chance and give them what they want. Turn your game into an episode of Paranoia. Pit them against each other until they destroy the game all together. Then you'll have a chance to reboot and use the previous game as a deterrent for that kind of behavior in the future. Could be fun bein' devious.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

It definitely seems like a discussion of the kind of game each player (GM included) expects and desires would be a good idea.

[Bengalelf]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

I have brought over three Dungeon and Dragons players to my current Champions game. I do not play much D&D but what I have noticed, it always seems like a competition to be the strongest. There seems to always be a problem with switching people's mental image from Kill'em and take their stuff, to a more Champions point of view, which is to be the hero, do what is right intead of just killing the bad guy. Superheroes arrest the bad guy because everyone deserves a second chance rather just kill them.

 

One thing I have learned, there is always other players out there. You just have to go find them. If you lose all three players that could be exactly what your game needs. One of the hardest jobs a GM can do is ask one of their players to leave, but the end result of that desicion can save a campaign that would of otherwise destroyed itself.

 

I hand pick the players in my group. And still I have had players almost destroy the campaign. Players I have had to get rid of because their play style seriously did not fit my world.

 

I am most comfortable with a group of 5-6 players, but right now I have 7. Before we went to 7, I talked to party before a session. We descussed their concerns (Not every character would get as much face time) and mine (Combat would be longer and villains teams would need to be befed up) with the large party. In the end we decided, as a group, to go up to 7 players and so far we are still managing to have fun. Every decision that effects the game, be it a change in night, addition of a new player, removal of a player, I take to the party and descuss it with them. Open communcation is very important in any gaming group. About every three months I also start a session by asking the party is everything going okay? Is there any concerns that we need to address. And whatever they are even if they do not like something I did, I listen and try to find a common place to start from again. I do this becaue as much as the world is my baby, my creation, it also belongs to the players. It would not exist without them.

 

The first thing I would suggest is talk to the whole party about your concerns and listen to theirs. From there you can find a solution that hopefully all are happy with.

[Zen Archer]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

I have brought over three Dungeon and Dragons players to my current Champions game. I do not play much D&D but what I have noticed, it always seems like a competition to be the strongest. There seems to always be a problem with switching people's mental image from Kill'em and take their stuff, to a more Champions point of view, which is to be the hero, do what is right intead of just killing the bad guy. Superheroes arrest the bad guy because everyone deserves a second chance rather just kill them.

 

I've seen or played in plenty of Champions games where the goal is to be the toughest, even if it meant competing against the other team members. I've played with folks who think the goal of fighting bad guys is to beat up bad guys, never mind rehabilitation. I've seen and played in plenty of D&D games where killing things and taking their stuff is not the primary goal. Or even the secondary. I think it comes down to the qualities of the players and GMs.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

I've seen or played in plenty of Champions games where the goal is to be the toughest' date=' even if it meant competing against the other team members. I've played with folks who think the goal of fighting bad guys is to beat up bad guys, never mind rehabilitation. I've seen and played in plenty of D&D games where killing things and taking their stuff is not the primary goal. Or even the secondary. I think it comes down to the qualities of the players and GMs.[/quote']

 

Absolutely correct. System does not determine playstyle or RP quality. That's 100% on the group.

[Orion]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

I've played with folks who think the goal of fighting bad guys is to beat up bad guys' date=' never mind rehabilitation.[/quote']

 

I think that pretty much sums up every campaign I've been a player in, and most of the campaigns I've created. Then again, it also perfectly describes every comic I've ever read. Spider Man exists to beat up on bad guys, not give them counseling. The writers need the villains to return, so the heroes never try to make them better people. And then there are people like me that firmly believe retribution should be the primary purpose of our justice system, not rehabilitation (I believe most cannot be rehabilitated, either because it was a singular momentary impulse, or the have a differing value system).

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

I think that pretty much sums up every campaign I've been a player in' date=' and most of the campaigns I've created. Then again, it also perfectly describes every comic I've ever read. Spider Man exists to beat up on bad guys, not give them counseling. The writers need the villains to return, so the heroes never try to make them better people. And then there are people like me that firmly believe retribution should be the primary purpose of our justice system, not rehabilitation (I believe most cannot be rehabilitated, either because it was a singular momentary impulse, or the have a differing value system).[/quote']

 

I have to disagree. I think the reason the heroes fight the badguys is to stop them. They aren't fighting just to be fighting, they are fighting for a reason. As for trying to rehabilitate the bad guys, most superheroes are woefully unqualified for that. Stop the nad guys, turn them over to the police, and let the justice system take it from there. If the villain returns, then thet either have been released and the hero has no right to interfere with them until/unless they commit another crime; or they have escaped, in which case the hero is obligated to try and help bring the villain in again.

[Zen Archer]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

As for trying to rehabilitate the bad guys' date=' most superheroes are woefully unqualified for that. [/quote']

 

They often still try, though. Batman's tried to reform Two-Face and Catwoman more than once. Occasionally it sticks.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: GM Help: That Player I Want to Strangle

 

They often still try' date=' though. Batman's tried to reform Two-Face and Catwoman more than once. Occasionally it sticks.[/quote']

 

I suppose it depends on the continuity, but it's most often those two because he has a personal connection to them. He's often responsible for Two-Face's condition, and, well, Catwoman wants in his batpants.