Camouflage?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Camouflage?

 

screw RAW.

[Barwickian]

Re: Camouflage?

 

There's nothing that says you can't use Concealment to help hide either. What you can do is use Concealment as Complimentary to Stealth' date=' or in Tandem with Stealth - Find the place to hide (Concealment) and Actually hiding (Stealth).[/quote']

 

All of the Hero System Skills examples discuss hiding something else (and note that a human adult carries a +12 or more penalty to conceal).

 

It does note that Animals have Concealment as an Everycreature skill and in this case it represents only their ability to hide themselves, not other objects. By implication, that suggests the skill can normally be used to hide both oneself and others.

 

I guess it's down to GM ruling, really. I'd have no problem allowing a character to conceal himself, provided they keep perfectly still. The moment he moves it becomes a matter of Stealth, not Concealment. There's a difference between playing hide and seek or hunt the thimble and walking on tippy-toes.

[Barwickian]

Re: Camouflage?

 

There's nothing that says you can't use Concealment to help hide either. What you can do is use Concealment as Complimentary to Stealth' date=' or in Tandem with Stealth - Find the place to hide (Concealment) and Actually hiding (Stealth).[/quote']

 

All of the Hero System Skills examples discuss hiding something else (and the table says that a human adult carries a +12 or more bonus to spot).

 

It does note that Animals have Concealment as an Everycreature skill and in this case it represents only their ability to hide themselves, not other objects. By implication, that suggests the skill can normally be used to hide both oneself and others.

 

I guess it's down to GM ruling, really. I'd have no problem allowing a character to conceal himself, provided they keep perfectly still. The moment he moves it becomes a matter of Stealth, not Concealment. There's a difference between playing hide and seek or hunt the thimble and walking on tippy-toes.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Camouflage?

 

The point is - Concealment is used to finding hiding spots - to use or find an object in. Camouflage is the art of finding a hiding spot to use, and then staying very still to make use of it.

 

Concealment + Stealth.

 

And screw RAW. That's also the point. RAW is a great starting place, but the Rules ARE NOT your babysitter. Be creative.

[Christopher]

Re: Camouflage?

 

screw RAW.

You said there is nothing.

I said there are the rules.

 

You may choose to houserule, but that also means that most you have to say about this thematic becomes useless in any discussion about RAW. Because you don't use raw, but your personal version.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Camouflage?

 

I would have sworn I'd seen a character with Concealment (-1/2, Self Only), but maybe it was in a game, not an official book. I can think of a plenty of examples of why someone might be good at hiding yet not have good sneaking (Stealth) skills though.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Camouflage?

 

It's all over the Bestiary- pretty much every animal that hides has it.

[JmOz]

Re: Camouflage?

 

I tend to build it as

 

+2 to Concelament, Stealth & Shadowing, Only in appropriate terrain (-0 to -1/2 depending on how easy he can switch the terain: -0 a phase, -1/4 needs to change clothes,, -1/2 can't). Then probably a OIF as well

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Camouflage?

 

It's all over the Bestiary- pretty much every animal that hides has it.

 

Yep; it also was part of the 5e Size Templates for being smaller than human-sized. Also in 5e, the Concealment skill specifies that it can be used to hide yourself if you're stationary (aka 'finding a good hiding place').

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Camouflage?

 

Yep; it also was part of the 5e Size Templates for being smaller than human-sized. Also in 5e' date=' the Concealment skill specifies that it can be used to hide yourself if you're stationary (aka 'finding a good hiding place').[/quote']Which begs the question, was the change in wording in the skill description meant as an intentional rules change and the Bestiary and Size Template write-ups are artifacts of not re-writing those sections accurately enough (puting in Stealth instead) or does 6E Concealment still include "hiding ones self" by RAW? I would note that the Stealth description mentions "hidng in plain sight" which is arguably different than hiding in general.

[Christopher]

Re: Camouflage?

 

Yep; it also was part of the 5e Size Templates for being smaller than human-sized. Also in 5e' date=' the Concealment skill specifies that it can be used to hide yourself if you're stationary (aka 'finding a good hiding place').[/quote']

My 5E Character Creation handbook allows Concealment, but says you should use Stealth for "Active and short-time concealment". "Only use concealment if non-moving persons try to hide themself for a long time."

But it also uses Perception as Contering Roll in the Skill Contest.

Under Stealth it notices that "long term, motionless hiding is concealment"

 

All those passages are missing in 6E, so it is likely that now Concealment is only for hiding objects and finding stuff (see below). Stealth for hiding oneself.

Also the 6E Small Size Templates now use stealthbonus.

 

I've searched a little across the APG's:

APG I 21 lists common uses of Skills and the time they need. Concealment has "Hiding object, Search a Person, Search an Area" as use cases.

So maybe Concealment includes "Search everything".

[ghost-angel]

Re: Camouflage?

 

This is one of those places where I really think RAW is useless and the group needs to go with what feels right for the group.

 

Personally, Concealment is the art of finding and using hiding places - and even if the Skill description specifies "things" I see absolutely no logical reason "finding and using hiding places" cannot extend to anything you need to hide - including yourself. Stealth may be the art of not getting spotted, but if you're in a camouflage situation you still need a good hiding spot first, and that is definitely under the purview of Concealment's description. Hiding Places.

 

That RAW wants to narrow that down to "things" is pure bullocks.

[Christopher]

Re: Camouflage?

 

This is one of those places where I really think RAW is useless and the group needs to go with what feels right for the group.

 

Personally, Concealment is the art of finding and using hiding places - and even if the Skill description specifies "things" I see absolutely no logical reason "finding and using hiding places" cannot extend to anything you need to hide - including yourself. Stealth may be the art of not getting spotted, but if you're in a camouflage situation you still need a good hiding spot first, and that is definitely under the purview of Concealment's description. Hiding Places.

 

That RAW wants to narrow that down to "things" is pure bullocks.

Are you certain it is not just one of those "Name does not imply usage or special effect" situations?

 

Wher you think the name tells what the skill does, rather than the Skill Description?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Camouflage?

 

Thank you, Christopher.

 

I have one more example I need your adjudication on.

 

---

 

Marius is hurrying across a green field, it's various plants barely clearing two feet at their highest. It is also early morning, so, asides from the sun not having quite fully risen, there is a light mist across the land. Our relatively inexperienced guerrilla (Skill 10) is wearing a woodland ghillie suit with a number of native forest flora attached to it. If he can just make it to the forest on the other side of the road, he should be like a ghost.

 

The thing is, plans are made to go wrong.

 

Spotting an unfamiliar Armoured Personnel Carrier coming from the mist, and unable to take the time to really blend in, Marius quite literally hits the dirt some five meters away from the pavement. His colour scheme mostly matches that of the vegetation, but the suit itself is not tailor made for a field...

 

The two troopers atop the vehicle aren't rookies (PER 13), and are specifically on alert for any threats lurking near the road.

[Christopher]

Re: Camouflage?

 

Foggy weather is a -1 to the Per Roll

There will propably no range modifier involved at the point of closest approach.

Where the equipment stands is a big question: It's neither the Perfect (+3) nor totally wrong (+3). I would propably guess +1 or +2 for Stealth or a +1 little contrast modifer.

Stealth normally requires a half phase. If he was going carefull, he might just have had a held action ready. Otherwise he might have a -3 penalty for ruhsing the skill. However just "dropping prone" is a 0-phase action.

 

How much vegetation is between him and the others at the point of closes appraoch? What is the perception modifier for the Vegetation?

I have no values for this, but generally half meter high grass and tends to be pretty good at hiding things, espeically people who lie on the ground. When he is prone he might be simply "out of sight" or have so high per-modifers for being behind the grass that he is undetectable if he just stays still.

 

Propably let him make a Stealth Roll with +1 and give the foes a -1 and whatever the vegetation provides. If he makes it, he isn't detected.

 

If they find him, it might be that he stood up to early to look (just when one guard looked in that direction), that something in his equipment is reflecting the sunlight, or that one guy just randomly had to pee and went right towards him.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Camouflage?

 

By how much do unpainted/unconcealed metallic (shiny) weapons penalize wilderness camouflage?

[Christopher]

Re: Camouflage?

 

By how much do unpainted/unconcealed metallic (shiny) weapons penalize wilderness camouflage?

This is simply part of the of the "fitting Equipment" modifier for Stealth. A polished Breatplate and Two-Handed Sword is obviously the worst gear (-3).

But even with bad gear (up to -30% chance) a very good character can still pull it off.