Ragitsu Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Be it tiger stripe, olive drab, snow MARPAT, or a full on ghillie suit, how does camouflage work in HERO 6th Edition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Re: Camouflage? First there is the "Contrast" Modifier to Perception Rolls (see 6E2) The next Step could be Skill Levels/Increased Skill with Stealth. Then there is personal Change Enviroment, to Impose Perception Roll Penalties (unlike the Stealth skill it is passive). And the ultimative Step is Invisibility to Sight, Only while not Moving Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Re: Camouflage? Bonus to Concealment through a focus would probably be the easiest way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhd Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Re: Camouflage? Once precedence is 6E2 178, Lion: camouflage coloration: +1 to Stealth; Only In Home Environment (-1) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Re: Camouflage? Bonus to Concealment through a focus would probably be the easiest way. Concealment is to hide things other than the Character, and find things others have hidden with Concealment. Hide/Search items basically. Stealth is the Move Silently/Hide in Plain Sight/Avoid Detection skill for Characters themself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Re: Camouflage? First there is the "Contrast" Modifier to Perception Rolls (see 6E2) The next Step could be Skill Levels/Increased Skill with Stealth. Then there is personal Change Enviroment, to Impose Perception Roll Penalties (unlike the Stealth skill it is passive). And the ultimative Step is Invisibility to Sight, Only while not Moving Good answer! This being Hero, there was never just going to be one answer to that question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted May 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Re: Camouflage? How about PS: Camouflage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Re: Camouflage? Bonus to Concealment through a focus would probably be the easiest way. Tigers can take their stripes as a Focus?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Re: Camouflage? How about PS: Camouflage? Where does a Camouflager work? How much is there to it? It sounds like it is a Skill built only for the Complimentary Bonus. If could see other PS being complimentary: Solider or Hunter. PS: Agent (from the Agent Sheet in Champions 6E). But most of them have Stealth anyway, so I doubt any of them has to be complimentary. Tigers can take their stripes as a Focus?! I think he might have been reffering to the OP, not the Tiger Stripes post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Re: Camouflage? I think he might have been reffering to the OP' date=' not the Tiger Stripes post.[/quote'] 1. I was obviously joking. 2. The OP was the "Tiger Stripe post"... EDIT: Be it tiger stripe' date=' olive drab, snow MARPAT, or a full on ghillie suit, how does camouflage work in HERO 6th Edition?[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Re: Camouflage? Since every other thing he mentioned was clothing, I assumed he was referring to a tiger-striped camouflage suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Re: Camouflage? Sigh. [ATTACH=CONFIG]43244[/ATTACH] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Re: Camouflage? Concealment is to hide things other than the Character, and find things others have hidden with Concealment. Hide/Search items basically. Stealth is the Move Silently/Hide in Plain Sight/Avoid Detection skill for Characters themself. Could you give me a rules quote for that? I don't have my books here at work, but I could have sworn that Concealment could be used to hide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted May 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Re: Camouflage? Where does a Camouflager work? How much is there to it? It sounds like it is a Skill built only for the Complimentary Bonus. It could be used to conceal objects/vehicles as well, or to construct/improve a ghillie suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Re: Camouflage? Could you give me a rules quote for that? I don't have my books here at work' date=' but I could have sworn that Concealment could be used to hide.[/quote'] No problem: Concealment (6E1 72): "This Intellect Skill represents a character’s ability to hide things and to find things others have hidden — important papers, weapons, jewels, artifacts, drugs, and so forth. [...] also [...] traps, security devices, bugging devices, and the like." The Concealment Skill Contest is "Concealment(hider) vs. Concealment (Seeker)". Stealth (6E1 89): "Characters with this Agility Skill can hide in shadows, move silently, conceal himself, and/or avoid detection in combat conditions." Stealth is also the one to stay hidden while/after using Obvious and Inobvious Powers (Sniping without detection; silent Movement). Stealth Skill Contest is "Stealth vs. Perception". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted May 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Re: Camouflage? Sergeant Benny is at the top of a low hill in the desert, leaning against a side not entirely within sight of a Taliban patrol that is moving from cover to cover. It is high noon, so lighting conditions are optimal, and they are twenty meters away. He is trying to observe the enemy before they get away. Fortunately, his anachronistic choco-chip battle dress uniform blends into the primarily yellowish peach colour scheme of the rocks around him. If he can avoid detection (the Taliban have PER 11), he should be fine. --- Assuming you are gaming out this scenario in a "realistic" fashion, how, in game terms, would the Sergeant's camouflage help him, and what would the numerical modifiers be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Re: Camouflage? Sergeant Benny is at the top of a low hill in the desert, leaning against a side not entirely within sight of a Taliban patrol that is moving from cover to cover. It is high noon, so lighting conditions are optimal, and they are twenty meters away. He is trying to observe the enemy before they get away. Fortunately, his anachronistic choco-chip battle dress uniform blends into the primarily yellowish peach colour scheme of the rocks around him. If he can avoid detection (the Taliban have PER 11), he should be fine. --- Assuming you are gaming out this scenario in a "realistic" fashion, how, in game terms would the Sergeant's camouflage help him, and what would the numerical modifiers be? How much atention are they actually paying? A partol is mostly about seing big troop concentrations (that are hard to miss) than to see a single person. It's easy to get distracted on patrol or guard. How does he hides his face? Has he painted it identical to his clothing? You have also established that he has a suiteable hiding place. And that it propably has Low Contrast (-1 PER; 6E2 12) What is his Stealth Skill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted May 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Re: Camouflage? How much atention are they actually paying? A partol is mostly about seing big troop concentrations (that are hard to miss) than to see a single person. It's easy to get distracted on patrol or guard. How does he hides his face? Has he painted it identical to his clothing? You have also established that he has a suiteable hiding place. And that it propably has Low Contrast (-1 PER; 6E2 12) What is his Stealth Skill? The Taliban are wary, but not actively looking for a specific threat. I wasn't sure if camouflage paint is within the resolution of HERO's mechanics. But, no, he didn't put any on (he came across them rather abruptly). His Stealth Skill is 11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Re: Camouflage? The Taliban: I think they are not actively Searching (no per bonus for Spending time). They might have a penalty for trying to be stealthy themself. The Sergant: He is actively hiding (Rolled Stealth) vs. Sight. Saying he "Fortunately, his anachronistic choco-chip battle dress uniform blends into the primarily yellowish peach colour scheme of the rocks around him." means he already made his Stealth Roll - he picked a place that makes him hard to Spot form the PoV of the Taliban. Not making his stealth Roll means normal Perception Rules apply (he only has range Modifier to go with). He might still have a Contrast Bonus (-1 PER) on his Side He is not moving (movement gives +1 to Sight Perception Rolls) and thus does not have to roll to move silently. Mostly it's how good he rolled + Range Modifier vs. Perception Roll of 11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted May 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Re: Camouflage? Is a Contrast Bonus of -1 PER huge? I've seen normal BDUs (battle dress uniforms) that matched the environment they were up against, and it can be damn difficult to spot the wearer even when they are in "plain sight". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhd Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Re: Camouflage? Am I the only one who's got the Stan Ridgway song stuck in his head now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Re: Camouflage? Is a Contrast Bonus of -1 PER huge? I've seen normal BDUs (battle dress uniforms) that matched the environment they were up against' date=' and it can be damn difficult to spot the wearer even when they are in "plain sight".[/quote'] That is the "not hiding successfull" penalty. A guy with white clothing standing normally for a (equally) white wall. And like all -1, it is -10% chance of detection. That means a -2 for D&D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barwickian Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Re: Camouflage? Am I the only one who's got the Stan Ridgway song stuck in his head now? No, you're not. So Camouflage in HERO terms (additions and suggestions welcome): - [table] [tr] [td=align: center]VAL[/td] [td=align: center]CHA[/td] [td=align: center]Cost[/td] [td=align: center]Total[/td] [td=align: center]Roll[/td] [td=align: left]Notes[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]30[/td] [td=align: center]STR[/td] [td=align: center]30[/td] [td=align: center]30[/td] [td=align: center]15-[/td] [td=align: left]HTH Damage 6d6 END [6][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]15[/td] [td=align: center]DEX[/td] [td=align: center]10[/td] [td=align: center]15[/td] [td=align: center]12-[/td] [td=align: left][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]20[/td] [td=align: center]CON[/td] [td=align: center]10[/td] [td=align: center]20[/td] [td=align: center]13-[/td] [td=align: left][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]10[/td] [td=align: center]INT[/td] [td=align: center]0[/td] [td=align: center]10[/td] [td=align: center]11-[/td] [td=align: left]PER Roll 11-[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]23[/td] [td=align: center]EGO[/td] [td=align: center]16[/td] [td=align: center]23[/td] [td=align: center]14-[/td] [td=align: left][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]15[/td] [td=align: center]PRE[/td] [td=align: center]5[/td] [td=align: center]15[/td] [td=align: center]12-[/td] [td=align: left]PRE Attack: 3d6[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]5[/td] [td=align: center]OCV[/td] [td=align: center]10[/td] [td=align: center]5[/td] [td=align: center][/td] [td=align: left][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]5[/td] [td=align: center]DCV[/td] [td=align: center]10[/td] [td=align: center]5[/td] [td=align: center][/td] [td=align: left][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]3[/td] [td=align: center]OMCV[/td] [td=align: center]0[/td] [td=align: center]3[/td] [td=align: center][/td] [td=align: left][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]3[/td] [td=align: center]DMCV[/td] [td=align: center]0[/td] [td=align: center]3[/td] [td=align: center][/td] [td=align: left][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]6[/td] [td=align: center]PD[/td] [td=align: center]4[/td] [td=align: center]6[/td] [td=align: center][/td] [td=align: left]6 PD (0 rPD)[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]6[/td] [td=align: center]ED[/td] [td=align: center]4[/td] [td=align: center]6[/td] [td=align: center][/td] [td=align: left]6 ED (0 rED)[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]5[/td] [td=align: center]SPD[/td] [td=align: center]40[/td] [td=align: center]5[/td] [td=align: center][/td] [td=align: left]Phases: 3, 5, 8, 10, 12[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]7[/td] [td=align: center]REC[/td] [td=align: center]3[/td] [td=align: center]7[/td] [td=align: center][/td] [td=align: left][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]40[/td] [td=align: center]END[/td] [td=align: center]4[/td] [td=align: center]40[/td] [td=align: center][/td] [td=align: left][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]15[/td] [td=align: center]BODY[/td] [td=align: center]5[/td] [td=align: center]15[/td] [td=align: center][/td] [td=align: left][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: center]40[/td] [td=align: center]STUN[/td] [td=align: center]10[/td] [td=align: center]40[/td] [td=align: center][/td] [td=align: left][/td] [/tr] [/table][table] [tr] [td]Movement[/td] [td]Combat[/td] [td]NCmbat[/td] [td]Notes[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Running[/td] [td=align: center]15m[/td] [td=align: center]30m[/td] [td=align: left]END [1][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Swimming[/td] [td=align: center]7m[/td] [td=align: center]14m[/td] [td=align: left]END [1][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Leaping[/td] [td=align: center]8m[/td] [td=align: center]16m[/td] [td=align: left]8m forward, 4m upward[/td] [/tr] [/table][table=width: 1024] [tr] [td]Cost[/td] [td]POWERS[/td] [td]END[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: right]140[/td] [td]An awfully strange Marine: Desolidification (affected by Things affecting ghosts), Persistent (+1/4), Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Selective Desolidification (+1 1/2) (140 Active Points)[/td] [td=align: right]0[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: right]16[/td] [td]Suddenly, I forgot my fears: Aid PRE 4d6 (24 Active Points); Only to Aid Others (-1/2)[/td] [td=align: right]2[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: right]13[/td] [td]He just swat it with his hand: Deflection (20 Active Points); Requires A Roll (DEX roll; -1/2)[/td] [td=align: right]2[/td] [/tr] [/table][table] [tr] [td]Cost[/td] [td]SKILLS[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: right]20[/td] [td]+2 with All Attacks[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: right]10[/td] [td]Marine Rifleman: +2 with firearms[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: right]3[/td] [td]Teamwork 12-[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: right]3[/td] [td]Tactics 11-[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: right]9[/td] [td]The boys just call me Camouflage: Stealth 15-[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: right]3[/td] [td]Concealment 11-[/td] [/tr] [/table][table] [tr] [td]Cost[/td] [td]PERKS[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td=align: right]1[/td] [td]Fringe Benefit: Corporal[/td] [/tr] [/table][table] [tr] [td]Cost[/td] [td]EQUIPMENT[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td] [/td] [td]Colt M16/M16A1: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Invisible Power Effects (Invisible to Sight; +1/4), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2) (67 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum (-1/2), Required Hands (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), 30 Charges (+1/4)+1 with any single attack (2 Active Points); OAF (-1)+1 to offset RMod; OAF (-1)[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td] [/td] [td]Colt M1911/M1911AI: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6-1 (Damage Class), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (34 Active Points); OAF (-1), 7 Charges (-1/2), STR Minimum (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4)+1 with any single attack (2 Active Points); OAF (-1)[/td] [/tr] [/table][table=width: 1024] [tr] [td]COMPLICATIONS[/td] [td=align: right]Value[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Psychological Complication: Save the lives of lost marines: (Very Common; Total)[/td] [td=align: right]25[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Distinctive Features: A big Marine, a giant (Not Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)[/td] [td=align: right]15[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Physical Complication: Dead (All the Time; Barely Impairing)[/td] [td=align: right]20[/td] [/tr] [/table][table=width: 1024] [tr] [td]QUOTE[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Don't worry, son, I'm here. If Charlie wants to tangle now, he'll have two of us to dodge[/td] [/tr] [/table] Base Pts: 400 Exp Required: 0 Total Exp Available: 0 Exp Unspent: 0 Total Character Cost: 386 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Re: Camouflage? No problem: Concealment (6E1 72): "This Intellect Skill represents a character’s ability to hide things and to find things others have hidden — important papers, weapons, jewels, artifacts, drugs, and so forth. [...] also [...] traps, security devices, bugging devices, and the like." The Concealment Skill Contest is "Concealment(hider) vs. Concealment (Seeker)". Stealth (6E1 89): "Characters with this Agility Skill can hide in shadows, move silently, conceal himself, and/or avoid detection in combat conditions." Stealth is also the one to stay hidden while/after using Obvious and Inobvious Powers (Sniping without detection; silent Movement). Stealth Skill Contest is "Stealth vs. Perception". There's nothing that says you can't use Concealment to help hide either. What you can do is use Concealment as Complimentary to Stealth, or in Tandem with Stealth - Find the place to hide (Concealment) and Actually hiding (Stealth). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Re: Camouflage? There's nothing that says you can't use Concealment to help hide either. What you can do is use Concealment as Complimentary to Stealth' date=' or in Tandem with Stealth - Find the place to hide (Concealment) and Actually hiding (Stealth).[/quote'] Not by RAW. The only Skill Complimentary to Stealth might be Contortionist - and only then if you hide it thight spaces (so it's complimentary to counter a penalty). Concealment eplicitly notices "things". Any skill "related to the item hidden" acts complimentary, both with hiding and searching. The objects you hide might be unconscious people (or even conscious ones, as long as they don't move). I think one of the APG's might have noted the idea to use concealment to "hide in general" - when there is nobody to directly oppose with the roll, but that is it. You would still need stealth when you want to attack from this hiding (without alerting the target to your presence). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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