VPPs and Variable SFX

[Ice9]

Just a thought I had about VPPs - how much flexibility in SFX / meta-SFX is already included, and when would an advantage be required?

 

Case #1: The Collector

Let's say you have a character with effectively a Bag of Holding, represented by a VPP. In this storage space, he has magical, technological, and biological devices gathered from the many worlds he's visited. So for example, if he's facing a mage who can counter any spell, he pulls out a neutron pistol. If he's facing a technokinetic, he pulls out a wand of firey doom.

Is this something that would require a Variable SFX advantage (on the control cost, presumably), or is it subsumed in not buying Limited Class of Powers?

 

Case #2: The Poison Master

Now consider a similar character, but his bag contains only poisons, still in a wide range of types - magical, chemical, living, nanotech, and so forth.

Given that he does have Limited Class of Powers, would he need Variable SFX?

 

Finally, if you answered "no" to the previous two questions, could a character whose VPP only had powers of a given "meta-SFX" take a limitation for this, in addition to Limited Class of Powers if applicable?

I'm not sure if there is a definitive answer, but I'm curious what people think.

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

VPPs should have a fairly broad, but still definable, Special Effect. Given that it's often very wide "technology" or "poisons" or even "magic" they don't, technically need Variable Special Effects. And in my opinion shouldn't need it at all, ever, on the pool.

 

However, a Power in a Slot might want it, otherwise you have to stop and reconfigure your VPP to get a new slot with the correct Special Effect in it. Or purchase the appropriate Advantage, 1/2 Phase, 0 Phase Action to Change Slots, to do it more quickly or instantly, respectively.

 

If, for instance, you have "Can Only Be Changed In Lab" on your Gadget VPP and want a vari-blaster with a fire setting, lightning setting, and laser-beam setting, you'll probably want a form of Variable Special Effects on that Slots Power.

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

There is a discussion of "The Power Cosmic" in Champions 6E and it's ability to produce everything (inlcuding every special effect):

Variant 1: The SFX is Cosmic, no matter what the power looks like (a Fireball is Cosmic SFX, not Fire)

Variant 2: Variable SFX at highest level for all "Cosmic" powers

Variant 3: use a VPP, "because it can create any special effect".

 

So I would say by RAW, a magic VPP without limitations can create any special effect - inlcuding Fire, Firearms and Hard Light Constructs.

But:

The Source SFX is always Magic. So a "Drain Magic" will always work against the powers created in that VPP

Most VPP's tend to be limited to equal the +1/4 Variable Special Effect in broadness. Some only exclude a few Special effects for a -0 Limitation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

It is a difficult question because it is perfectly possible to build a book-legal VPP that does use many sfx 'for free'; your standard gadget pool might have any number of items that are all broadly 'technology', but could include a flamethrower and a projectile weapon and a gas grenade.

 

You can not compare directly, but a VPP that allows you to build any gadget is effectively cheaper than a simple Blast with Variable SFX and Variable Advantage, making the VPP (for certain builds) a cheaper option and undermining the point of having those advantages separately in the system.

 

You CAN decide that everything in a VPP only has a specific SFX, but that seems a bit odd when Gadget Boy uses his flamethrower on Melting man and does not trigger the 'Double Damage From Fire Based Attacks' Complication whereas Flamethrower Girl (using ostensibly the same sort of item) does.

 

For adjustment powers, I always take the view that a negative adjustment power can affect ANYTHING with the relevant SFX (after all if you are draining fire attacks, there is something to drain, and if you are draining technology or gadgets, there is also something to drain) but a positive adjustment power would have to be looked at more closely: generally only something that boosts the 'final' sfx will positively affect it, not the underlying sfx - so a Fire Aid would increase Gadget Boy's flamethrower damage, but a Gadget Aid would not - unless it has been built to cover multiple sfx, in which case it might.

 

All a bit ad hoc and I usually avoid VPPs unless there is no other option.

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

You can not compare directly' date=' but a VPP that allows you to build any gadget is effectively cheaper than a simple Blast with Variable SFX and Variable Advantage, making the VPP (for certain builds) a cheaper option and undermining the point of having those advantages separately in the system.[/quote']

There are still upsides to using Variable Special effect: You can switch to any Special Effect as 0-phase action.

A VPP with Skill needs a Full Phase + Skill Roll - and if you fail the roll, you just wasted a Full Phase.

 

On the other hand VPP has the better efficiency:

DC adds better without advantages, the AP/Damage ratio is better, the Endurance Cost is better. But it also costs more points and is more difficutly to change.

[JmOz]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

I would say this comes up because Hero does not do a good job of distinguishing between effect and source. What I mean by that is that "Magic" would be the source but "Fire" would be the effect. IMO adjustment powers should decide to effect one or the other, and not be able to modify the other.

 

So a Drain Fire would be able to drain a wizard's firebolt spell, but not ALL of the spells (Even if they took unified power), but a drain magic could. However that drain fire power does not care if it is a spell, a gun, pyrotechnis, or any other source.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

I would say this comes up because Hero does not do a good job of distinguishing between effect and source. What I mean by that is that "Magic" would be the source but "Fire" would be the effect. IMO adjustment powers should decide to effect one or the other' date=' and not be able to modify the other.So a Drain Fire would be able to drain a wizard's firebolt spell, but not ALL of the spells (Even if they took unified power), but a drain magic could. However that drain fire power does not care if it is a spell, a gun, pyrotechnis, or any other source.[/quote']I aggree with all of thos except the "even if they took Unified Power" part. I mean, that's the entire function and purpose of the Limitation. Could you explain why you think that? Seems like a rather extreme case of SFX trumping Mechanics.

[JmOz]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

The main reason is a sense of internal logic. I feel unified power is a victim side of being able to drain multiple powers simultaniusly. As such, just as with drain it should go along one of the axises mentioned above. Furthermore, it prevents a drain which logicaly works along one axis from affecting a power alongside the other.

 

Ok, let me see if I can explain this via a extreme example

 

A character takes a Magical Firebolt spell. he also has the winds of flight, the water of healing, and Earth Skin. All are magical

 

 

He took unified power: Elemental Magical spells

 

When he fires his firebolt spell at a villain, he finds out that the red cylinder he is carrying is a super fire extinguisher, Drain Fire by build

 

It does not make sense that it would affect his three other powers

------------------------------------------------

Second, character is hit by a drain magic. Of cource all of his powers would be drained

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

If it would not be reasonable for a single Drain to affect all the powers, then they should not have been Unified. The problem is with the VPP, not the Drain.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Actually, it's just a good example of why drain shouldn't be used as a defense. Dispell would not have such an issue.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

If it would not be reasonable for a single Drain to affect all the powers' date=' then they should not have been Unified. The problem is with the VPP, not the Drain.[/quote']

 

If they shouldn't all be drained together than they shouldn't have been built with Unified. Perhaps a Drain aimed at the SFX Magic (instead of at a specific mechanic, like Blast) would Drain the VPP itself. Or perhaps the Drain should have to have the "Affects all Powers with X SXF simulataniously. Either way, the problem isn't Unified.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

The main reason is a sense of internal logic. I feel unified power is a victim side of being able to drain multiple powers simultaniusly. As such, just as with drain it should go along one of the axises mentioned above. Furthermore, it prevents a drain which logicaly works along one axis from affecting a power alongside the other.

 

Ok, let me see if I can explain this via a extreme example

 

A character takes a Magical Firebolt spell. he also has the winds of flight, the water of healing, and Earth Skin. All are magical

 

 

He took unified power: Elemental Magical spells

 

When he fires his firebolt spell at a villain, he finds out that the red cylinder he is carrying is a super fire extinguisher, Drain Fire by build

 

It does not make sense that it would affect his three other powers

------------------------------------------------

Second, character is hit by a drain magic. Of cource all of his powers would be drained

 

 

Like I said, the extinguisher should probably be built as a Dispel instead of a Drain. These types of inconsistencies can sometimes be an issue with how Unified was used but just as often it can be an improper (lazy?) use of Drain instead of a more accurately fitting mechanic.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Let's take the Human Torch for example. He's probably the poster child for the original Elemental Control and its successor the Unified Power Limitation. Let's say he runs up against Graviton who wants to increase the gravity around Torch to make it difficult/impossible for him to fly. The quick & easy method to build such an ability is Drain vs. Flight but there is no good sfx reason why Graviton's power should directly affect any of Torch's powers. Ergo, Drain vs. Flight is not the correct mechanic. Some form of Telekinesis or Flight UAA (with a 'nnd' defense other than having Flight) are probably the better methods to avoid such a paradox situation.

 

The basic rule to follow is "if you're going to allow complex & realistic builds for ONE character in a game as a GM you probably need to make sure ALL the characters are constructed to a similar standard".

[bigbywolfe]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Let's take the Human Torch for example. He's probably the poster child for the original Elemental Control and its successor the Unified Power Limitation. Let's say he runs up against Graviton who wants to increase the gravity around Torch to make it difficult/impossible for him to fly. The quick & easy method to build such an ability is Drain vs. Flight but there is no good sfx reason why Graviton's power should directly affect any of Torch's powers. Ergo, Drain vs. Flight is not the correct mechanic. Some form of Telekinesis or Flight UAA (with a 'nnd' defense other than having Flight) are probably the better methods to avoid such a paradox situation.

 

The basic rule to follow is "if you're going to allow complex & realistic builds for ONE character in a game as a GM you probably need to make sure ALL the characters are constructed to a similar standard".

 

Fair example, perhaps I should not be quite so definite in my opinion stating. I do think that a lot of how SFX and certain Limitation (such as Unified) are used will vary not only between groups, but between campaigns as well. I think part of the problem is that by RAW Unified Powers all have to have the Limitation. I think it should have been possible to have one-way Unified. Thus his Flight could be Drained with the draining of other fire powers but other fire powers not be Drained if his Flight was. I have a feeling this has the potential to devolve into a SFX vs Mechanics argument.

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

About Unified:

At least regarding the Human Torch regarding as example for Unified: The example for Unified uses "the Human Flambeu". that sounds kind of similar

 

Let's take a look at the a text part of Unified: "As a good guideline for whether two abilities should be Unified, ask yourself: does it make sense that all of these abilities would be Drained at once by a single use of Drain? Are they that closely related? Can you conceive of a special effect for a Drain that would affect all of the Unified abilities

at once (for example, a fire extinguisher or lack of oxygen for Fire Powers)? If the answer to any of these questions is “No,” then associating the abilities together with Unified Power might not be a good idea."

 

It clearly notes to only take this limitation if you can think of a Drain SFX that can effect all powers the same. And usually the "Unification Group" has a name Clearly noting the special effect (Unified "Fire Powers"; -1/4). So saying that "Drain Flight" based on gravity isn't affecting you is not that wrong.

But I also noticed that Drains either Target only one Power or a Specifc SFX. It's not even possible to build a Drain that affects RKA and Blast at one power - if you want to affect more than one Power, this only works along an SFX axis. So it's really only a problem with Single Power Drains.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Fair example' date=' perhaps I should not be quite so definite in my opinion stating. I do think that a lot of how SFX and certain Limitation (such as Unified) are used will vary not only between groups, but between campaigns as well. I think part of the problem is that by RAW Unified Powers all have to have the Limitation. I think it should have been possible to have one-way Unified. Thus his Flight could be Drained with the draining of other fire powers but other fire powers not be Drained if his Flight was. I have a feeling this has the potential to devolve into a SFX vs Mechanics argument.[/quote']

 

The only way to do this would be to allow a finer grain of limitations (-1/8). I think Christopher's on the right track. The way I look at Unified is to ask if a character's power set could be affected as a whole by a 'drain-mimic' character like DC's Parasite or Marvel's Rogue. Using Unfified not only saves the original character points but makes creating an effective drain-mimic on near PC points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

I do think that a lot of how SFX and certain Limitation (such as Unified) are used will vary not only between groups' date=' but between campaigns as well. I think part of the problem is that by RAW Unified Powers all have to have the Limitation. I think it should have been possible to have one-way Unified. Thus his Flight could be Drained with the draining of other fire powers but other fire powers not be Drained if his Flight was.[/quote']

 

Then you'll be unhappy when the Pacifism Field that Suppresses all attack powers, including the character's Blast and RKA, also Suppresses his Flight, won't you?

 

That said, I agree with a one way Unified. In your example, the limitation would apply to powers that are Drained together. It would not apply to Blast, since Blast would not be drained when only Flight is targeted, but Flight would get the limitation for being Drained when my Blast is drained.

 

Of course, if I have half a dozen unified Fire powers already, why should I add "and they're also drained if my Blast is", when I already get my -1/4 limitation on the other powers, and the cost of my Blast won't change? Sounds like a SFX based limitation that I apply for no point savings because it's in character.

 

It also seems like a hole in Unified Power. If I take it on only two powers, say 5 points of Life Support and my Blast, each saves -1/4. How limited is my Blast, really? Who Drains Life Support? If I Unify a bunch of other powers, my Blast and Life Support are way more likely to suffer, but I save no extra points. However, it would be ludicrous to give each of five powers a -1 limitation because they get a -1/4 limitation for each other power they get Drained with. Even -1/8 adds up to -1/2 in that case, which still seems like a lot.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Perhaps Unified Power should be either SFX based or Mechanics based at the time of creation, just like Drains?

[Sean Waters]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Drain is not SFX based although you can make it effectively sfx based with an advantage: it actually targets a named power or powers. Also, although Dispel is not technically an adjustment power, you can apply the same advantages, making it SFX based. Oh the humanity.

 

IMO if you have taken a cost discount, you have to live with the consequences, whether or not they make sense. If that, understandably, bugs you, then don't build the powers that way, or agree a lesser limitation value to reflect the way in which the power 'should' work. Taking 'unified Power' on your flight means that when it is adjusted negatively, so is the power (s) that it is unified with.

 

It is a problem because it makes sense to be able to say 'I want all my powers to be adjusted by a Fire Drain, but not necessarily a drain that logically only works against one of the unified powers'. I suppose in this instance you could argue that hitting the target with a gravity field means that their Blast has to work harder to hit something, reducing effect, so you COULD see a form of logic there, I suppose.

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Mostly for myself, let's take a look at the Drain builds we might encounter.

 

There is the core Drain:

Either the pure Single Power/single Characteristics Drain

Or the Drain that splits it's total effect between different game elements at a set Ratio

If one of them works only against a specific SFX, that is a Limitation

 

There is Expanded Effect:

It has full power against a set group of Powers

If it only works against a specific Special Effect, it is a Limitation

 

Variable Effect:

Character Defines a List of Game Elements and he can affect one of them at a time.

It is automatically Limited to one Special Effect

 

Variable + Expanded Effect:

You define a list of Game Elements (Variable Effect) and can affect N of them at a time (Expanded Effect).

It is automatically Limited to one Special Effect

 

 

About Gravity Based Drain Flight:

It is cleary a single Power Drain. It is also clear that it can affect Gravitic Flight as well as Fiery Flight as well as Flapping Wings.

The Question that come into my mind are:

Why does it not affect Running, Jumping or Lifting?

How can it still affect all the special effects?

 

I personally only use the Unlimited Drain in one Situation: The power can be adapted on the Fly to work against very different ways of flight.

It can disrupt your Gravitic Controll Ability (in your Body), Disrupt your ability to Control Flames to propel yourself or weaken your Wing Muscles, all without affecting any other game element (asuming no Unification).

I would apply the same to Gravity Drain Flight: It does not "nails you to the ground". That would be the special effect of a Telekinetik Grab. It uses a gravitic manipulation in a very specific way to affect your power to fligh using Special Effect X.

And since it does it's interference in a way that is very specific way designed for powers special effect, it should (indeed) affect your other Gravity/Flame/Bestial Powers as well, if you have unified them.

[Ice9]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

I personally only use the Unlimited Drain in one Situation: The power can be adapted on the Fly to work against very different ways of flight.

It can disrupt your Gravitic Controll Ability (in your Body), Disrupt your ability to Control Flames to propel yourself or weaken your Wing Muscles, all without affecting any other game element (asuming no Unification).

I would apply the same to Gravity Drain Flight: It does not "nails you to the ground". That would be the special effect of a Telekinetik Grab. It uses a gravitic manipulation in a very specific way to affect your power to fligh using Special Effect X.

And since it does it's interference in a way that is very specific way designed for powers special effect, it should (indeed) affect your other Gravity/Flame/Bestial Powers as well, if you have unified them.

I feel similarly - in fact, I usually house-rule adjustment powers to work on a somewhat different basis:

* The default is "any one power of the specified SFX"

* Expanded Effect works normally, from that starting point

* To affect other SFX, get the Variable SFX advantage

* Affecting only a specific power, or small set of powers, is a -1/4 limitation

 

Characteristics are a bit funny. It hasn't come up, but I think I'd say that "all characteristics" is more than a single SFX for this purpose, thus requiring an advantage. But related characteristics, like a Temporal Acceleration Boost improving Dex/OCV/DCV/Speed, seems reasonable.

As does, for example, a "Drain Electronics" power draining cybernetically-enhanced characteristics. For which reason, I like to distinguish how much of a character's stats are from which SFX, even if there's no specific advantages/limitations on them.

[torchwolf]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

The only way to do this would be to allow a finer grain of limitations (-1/8). I think Christopher's on the right track. The way I look at Unified is to ask if a character's power set could be affected as a whole by a 'drain-mimic' character like DC's Parasite or Marvel's Rogue. Using Unfified not only saves the original character points but makes creating an effective drain-mimic on near PC points.

 

Proportionally Linked can be used instead of Unified Power to simulate* a one-way Unified Power build... but it still runs into the issue of being at the same (-1/4) Limitation value, even though Proportionally Linked is less restrictive.

 

*simulate, rather than having the exact same game effect, since the Linked Power is not actually reduced, just the Active Points that are available for use.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Hmmm. This is, on the face of it, either a very simple or a very complex issue.

 

It is simple because the rules are quite explicit. You choose the mechanic and live with it. However, the downside of that is that it can lead to inconsistency in play that ruins the 'feel' of a character.

 

It is complex because you want to make the game feel 'real' and thus are adjusting on the fly. The downside of this being that you need a complicated mix of mechanics that reflect the costs of how the GM might adjust the system to reflect game reality in the future.

 

Personally I think that the purpose of unified power is to reflect a pool of energy that can be used in a variety of ways. Even if the SFX of the powers are unrelated pulling at one aspect of that power means that it affects everything sourced from there.

 

That means that MagicMan decides that his powers are linked because they draw from a magical pool. When he is using his magical fire and someone seeks to drain that power then the GM looks and decides that this is a magical power with fire SFX, not a fire power. As such, the power is not drained but, using the long standing bit on SFX being able to give minor bonuses or penalties, would dampen the effectiveness of the magical fire - telling the person draining it that this in not normal fire - it is magic and that is hampering the effectiveness of the power they chose.

 

So to me - it is simple - give a bit and fall back on the rules...

 

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

One think about the usage of Unified:

The afaik only example of this Limitation in 6E1, 6E2 and Champions 6E is "Firebrand" on 6E1 18 and it is intersting:

All his powers have the Fire SFX. Most of them even have them exaclty same AP Value (we have 4 with 60 and one with 52). But only two of them are Unified and it are the ones outside the Multipower. And two don't even belong in the same Power Categories (Flight and Resistant Protection).

The 3 Attack Powers (2 blasts, 1 HKA) in the Multipower are completely un-unified.

 

I personally often decide against using Unified even if it is justified (single Special Effect/Power source), simply to simulate the power being "robust" against Drains.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

That is an interesting observation. Would be a good idea to look at any recent villains to see what the use is as it was there to provide usage after the EC framework was removed in sixth edition. If it is not getting used it is evidence that the EC was indeed an unnecessary framework and used simply as a point saving vehicle...

 

 

Doc