"Realistic" gun damage

[Christopher]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Look' date=' let us take another example. I nail your hands to a plank (just to be clear, i'm not actually going to do this...) - have you taken Body damage? Probably: there is long term damage that will not heal in a minute, so in Hero it either has to be Stun or Body, long term heal = body. Then I take a hammer and, individually smash each finger and your thumbs. Again, Body damage, so you've taken at least 12 Body. Are you likely to die as a result? Probably not. The Hero Body damage model does not work 'realistically' when we are talking about 'minor/moderate injuries'.[/quote']

There is a sort of maximum damage you can take as Damage to a limb. I think it was somewhere under disabling/Imparing rules. That rule is mostly used for heroic games.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

I did look for that as I recalled something similar myself, but could not see it in 6e: I could have just missed it. The point stands though, because I could smash all someone's fingers and toes and they still would not be likely to be in any mortal danger, even though I clearly appear to be doing Body damage. My point is that a point of Body is quite a blunt tool, and actually represents something that should be cumulatively fatal with a limited number of repetitions.

[Christopher]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

I did look for that as I recalled something similar myself' date=' but could not see it in 6e: I could have just missed it. The point stands though, because I could smash all someone's fingers and toes and they still would not be likely to be in any mortal danger, even though I clearly appear to be doing Body damage.[/quote']

It's the "Breaking Limbs" Rule under under "Injury" on 6E2 207. It is a default Rule.

Fingers propably need a lot less body than a Full arm. I think one would be cut of at exactly 0-Body, so if your 20 Body KA is aimed at a finger the character looses 0-Body (but starts bleeding anyway).

 

But mostly things like "Breaking Arms" trades chance to kill against chance to cause permanent Complications. It's basically a "add hoc" Transform.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

It's the "Breaking Limbs" Rule under under "Injury" on 6E2 207. It is a default Rule.

Fingers propably need a lot less body than a Full arm. I think one would be cut of at exactly 0-Body, so if your 20 Body KA is aimed at a finger the character looses 0-Body (but starts bleeding anyway).

 

But mostly things like "Breaking Arms" trades chance to kill against chance to cause permanent Complications. It's basically a "add hoc" Transform.

 

107, but got it - thank you. Still means you could seriously smash all four limbs and it should be fatal, quite apart from any bleeding damage. OK, the shock may kill you, but people can and do live quite happily without limbs. Again, the point I'm making is that Body is a blunt tool and that makes realistic gun damage (or anything damage) difficult to pull off, because it is not just a matter of getting the damage right for the weapon, but also of applying that damage to the target 'realistically'.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Hero does a good job with some difficult abstractions, but there is a limit to how far you can take realism.

[phoenix240]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

We live in a world where people having been shot in the head with high caliber rounds and not noticed until someone told them they were bleeding while others have accidentally blown off a toe, went into shock and dropped dead. Interesting place to live in but difficult to game.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Amen to that, brother!

[Christopher]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

107' date=' but got it - thank you. Still means you could seriously smash all four limbs and it should be fatal, quite apart from any bleeding damage.[/quote']

Without prior damage, even 4/3 of your starting body is still not death (12 Body Character would be at -4; a 10 Body at -2).

 

I agree that body is a bit Blunt, but it seems to be good enough for Dramatic Realism

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

I agree that it is a good compromise, but I do feel that we could relatively easily come up with alternatives so that you can set the dial on where you want your level of realism* to be in combat. I think that would make a book that would sell well. I know there is a Hero Combat book already (which I do not have, and it is 5ed so I probably won't get it, unless I get some very strong recommendations) but I understand that is basically existing rules plus genre specific rules from other books.

 

I think that if we had a book specifically of options (multiple ways do do hit locations/damage/etc) then that could sell well. It does not have to be a long or expensive book, but I think there would be a lot of support. It could even cover things like using 'combat type' rules to cover other skill uses.

 

 

* that is, realism from a given perspective

[megaplayboy]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Maybe there could be an optional rule covering Shock. I'm thinking of something that might be analogous to the PRE attack chart...

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

There is, or was, a rule about having to make an EGO roll the first time you take Body in a combat, which is shock-y.

[megaplayboy]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

There is' date=' or was, a rule about having to make an EGO roll the first time you take Body in a combat, which is shock-y.[/quote']

 

That seems valid. I'd almost recommend something similar for the first time you get punched in the face(but only for the first couple fights a character ever gets into). There's nothing quite like a punch in the nose to put you off your game for a moment.

[Christopher]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

There is' date=' or was, a rule about having to make an EGO roll the first time you take Body in a combat, which is shock-y.[/quote']

There is teh "wounding" Rule ong 6E2 108. Everytime you take body, make a Ego roll at -1/2 Body taken. If you fail, you can't take offensive actions next phase (but still have youf full phase).

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

That's the baby.

[Zeropoint]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Still means you could seriously smash all four limbs and it should be fatal, quite apart from any bleeding damage.

 

If you just chopped off ONE leg with an axe or something similar, the victim would bleed out through the femoral artery very rapidly.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

If you just chopped off ONE leg with an axe or something similar' date=' the victim would bleed out through the femoral artery very rapidly.[/quote']In real life, not in Hero System, which is the whole point of the conversation...

[Christopher]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

If you just chopped off ONE leg with an axe or something similar' date=' the victim would bleed out through the femoral artery very rapidly.[/quote']

 

In real life' date=' not in Hero System, which is the whole point of the conversation...[/quote']

We are in a heroic games system, where people die from bleeding at the most dramatic speed possible, not the most realistic speed.

 

A 10 Body character would still be a -2 and roll 3d6 per Turn. enough to cancel out 10 stun recovery, a 50% chance to loose one body and only a 37,5% Chance to stop bleeding.

 

If you want it grittier you could reverse the damage multiplier for bleeding (when a arm has three body, you still beeld as if you'd lost 6) pushing this character up to 5d6 per turn.

Track each wound seperately (4 times 1d6; 16% chance to stop bleeding or take more body).

Or both.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

If you just chopped off ONE leg with an axe or something similar' date=' the victim would bleed out through the femoral artery very rapidly.[/quote']

 

 

Not if you tourniquet the leg first...er...or so I've read.

 

I agree though it is not always the case - people have lost limbs and the body has managed the bleeding, but generally that would be the effect.

[Toadmaster]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Through 4th Ed HERO clearly followed an each doubling of muzzle energy = +1DC, that changed in 5th ed onward. Steve clearly abandoned many of the math formulas assumed by the earlier editions. This is seen throughout the system, not just firearms.

 

What I came up with several years ago, was a chart that matched up very closely (85-90%) with then existing (4th ed) gun stats. DC1 (1 pip) = less than 100 joules, each doubling adds 1DC. To better match HERO d6-1 was considered the normal, at the 50% mark 1/2d6 is used instead. So >100j = 1 pip (DC1), 100-150j = 1/2d6 (DC2), 151-200j = 1d6-1 (DC2), 201-400j = 1d6 (DC3), 401-800j = 1d6+1 (DC4) etc.

 

Honestly, what are we arguing about here? Sure, given all the respective parameters for damage in the HERO system, there's a wide variety of in-system damage levels. And this isn't even including all the potential variety you could introduce with sundry ammo.

 

But disregarding all the various and plentiful additional parameters, disregarding likelihood of hitting something at an imaginary range and skill of the shooter, a singular bullet does a particular amount of damage to e.g. a lump of rock. This is what I'd like to talk about. No autofire, no armor piercing, no accuracy, no range modifiers…

 

And, once again, my initial issues with the damage column where the relatively low spread and the caliber issues. I wouldn't want to touch the accuracy (OCV/range) stats of all the weaponry involved with a ten foot pole…

 

But many of these things are linked, a fast light bullet like a 9mm Parabellum (1150 fps, 115 grain bullet, 463J) and a slow heavy bullet like a .45 ACP (880 fps, 230 grain bullet, 539J) both do similar damage because they have similar energy, but they have very different ballistics. The 9mm gets its energy from its high velocity (2x velocity = 4x energy), the .45 gets its damage from weight (2x weight = 2x energy). The higher velocity of the 9mm means the bullet travels further in a second, since both bullets drop an equal distance to do gravity, the 9mm has less "drop" than the .45 giving it better accuracy at range (less need to compensate). The .45 on the other hand has a big slow bullet that is supposed to transfer its energy more quickly (more surface in contact) which is where HERO throws in that +1 Stn to represent that superior "knock down" the .45 is famous for.

 

This provides for much more color as you get to choose between two similar guns, both doing 1d6+1, but one (the 9mm) holding more bullets, and being a tad more accurate (+1 Rmod), and the other (.45) has a better chance of incapaciting a living target. This carries over to the comparison between a large handgun like the .44 Magnum and a rifle cartridge like the 5.56mm NATO. Again both will do similar damage, but the details are different, the .44 will have a bit better "stopping power" (+1 Stn) but the 5.56mm has a significant edge at longer range even in a short barrel (TC Contender etc) due to its much higher velocity.

 

As you move into larger and larger weapons (cannon and such) if you want to have any variability you really need to explore options beyond raw damage, otherwise you end up with weird occurances like the M-4 Sherman (1.8 Mj = DC15, 5d6) doing almost the same damage as the Panther (3.3 Mj = DC16, 5d6+1). In the real world these two guns were in completely different classes, so you have to rely on the other rules such as AP, piercing, RMod etc to model the effect.

 

Unfortunately while HERO gave us a nice method to determine damage, it has never been so clear how they applied these other aspects. I came up with a system that I like, but it does not always match up with the HERO specs partculary as you get into the larger weapons.