MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

[Steve Long]

Howdy Herophiles!

 

I'm proud to announce the launch of my first HERO System-based Kickstarter project: Mythic Hero!

 

 

You can go to Kickstarter and pledge your support here: Mythic Hero Kickstarter.

 

 

My goal is to raise $33,000 in pledges by April 2 to write, lay out, and publish the book. (You can visit my website [see link below] for a precise cost breakdown, if you're interested.) I'd really appreciate any support you can offer!

 

 

For those of you who are unfamiliar with Kickstarter, here's how it works. Kickstarter is a form of "crowdfunding," in which people such as yourselves offer their financial support for a creative project to see it completed. You can pledge as much as you want, from $1 up to any amount. At certain pledge levels (such as $10, $25, and $50), there are special "rewards" you get for backing the project. For example, for the MH Kickstarter, pledging $25 gets you a PDF of the book and thanks in the credits, while pledging $75 gets you all that and a copy of the hardcopy printed book.

 

When you pledge to back a Kickstarter project, no money is taken from you unless the project reaches its full funding level. If it fails to reach its goal (in the case of MH, $33,000), then no money is taken from anyone and the project doesn't see the light of day.

 

To find out more about Mythic Hero. please visit the Mythic Hero page on my website.

 

Thanks!

[jeffkmills]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

I really need something to pique my interest before I'll contribute. Why in all these years, has no one done any material for the Turakian Age past the initial worldbook? I'd love to see Aarn, Valecia, and the Drakine Realms fleshed out...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

There is quite a bit of support for the Turakian Age past the initial worldbook. Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers (5E book of NPCs), Fantasy HERO Battlegrounds (5E multi-adventure volume with a variety of maps), Monsters, Minions, And Marauders (5E creature/race compilation, folded into the 6E HERO System Bestiary), two 5E Fantasy HERO Grimoires (spell compilations, folded into the 6E HERO System Grimoire), Enchanted Items (5E book of, well, you know...), and the Book Of Dragons (many variations on dragons and other big, powerful monsters for 5E), were all written to be compatible with The Turakian Age, and often refer to it specifically.

 

As for expanding on the TA setting itself, according to Hero Games reps none of the company's house setting books sold particularly well, so there wasn't a great deal of financial incentive for developing them further. Given Hero's current situation, adding more to the TA line is likely well down the priority list.

 

That, however, is not germain to the topic of this thread. Mythic HERO translates the myth and folklore from a host of real-world cultures into 6E HERO stats, including religions rarely or never researched for gaming before, and including broader background info such as myth-specific cosmologies. The purely fictional cultures and religions of the Turakian Age are beyond the scope of the book, as it's intended to be multi-genre-applicable and not tied to any particular fictional setting.

 

You can follow the links embedded in Steve Long's post at the top of the thread for detailed info as to what MH will cover.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

Why in all these years, has no one done any material for the Turakian Age past the initial worldbook?

 

I'm certainly pleased you like the setting! Unfortunately it was never popular enough to justify any further development. Hero gamers, for better or worse, tend to be the sorta folx who like to create their own settings.

[Hierax]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

Come on guys, Mythic Hero looks to be an amazing book full of wholesome Hero-y goodness but more support is needed to make this actually happen -- Pledge Now!

 

- http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2144376073/mythic-hero

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

Looking at Mythic, one issue may be the enhanced rewards. $75 for the book may scare off non-Hero players to begin with (it's a big book...) and doubling that to move to a numbered bookplate is a lot. Beyond that - one has to be pretty committed to being a partial writer to spend an extra $225, then moving into thousands. Mind you, that one guy pledging $1,000 covers a dozen book-buyers!

[megaplayboy]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

Even if that price point were dropped to 50 bucks, you'd still need more than 400 more buy-ins at that level, in the next 3 weeks. I wanted to buy in at 300 but the resources just weren't there for me. Hopefully some folks will use some of their tax refund money to get this thing rolling. If it gets down to the wire, I wonder if we could either extend the deadline or lower the price point slightly.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

If it gets down to the wire, I wonder if we could either extend the deadline or lower the price point slightly.

 

No and no. Once you create a project, you cannot change its deadline or the amount requested. Nor can you change a specific reward tier once one person has pledged for that reward. You can add different reward tiers, but you can't change existing ones.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

Looking at Mythic, one issue may be the enhanced rewards. $75 for the book may scare off non-Hero players to begin with (it's a big book...) and doubling that to move to a numbered bookplate is a lot. Beyond that - one has to be pretty committed to being a partial writer to spend an extra $225, then moving into thousands. Mind you, that one guy pledging $1,000 covers a dozen book-buyers!

 

If the price scares them off, so be it. That's the price the book has to have for me to cover the cost of goods and make a little money for my effort and skill.

 

Similarly, if people are concerned about the reward levels, so be it. I put a lot of thought into them and think they're arranged the way they need to be if the project's going to succeed. I don't have the capacity to offer extra stuff for the higher level tiers; I'm already offering what I can. I'm always pleased to get a good ol' $25 or $75 pledge in any event.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

If the price scares them off, so be it. That's the price the book has to have for me to cover the cost of goods and make a little money for my effort and skill.

 

Similarly, if people are concerned about the reward levels, so be it. I put a lot of thought into them and think they're arranged the way they need to be if the project's going to succeed. I don't have the capacity to offer extra stuff for the higher level tiers; I'm already offering what I can. I'm always pleased to get a good ol' $25 or $75 pledge in any event.

 

I don't disagree with any of these comments. It's a bit project, and it's going to carry a significant cost to bring about. The real question comes down to whether potential pledgers value the book enough to pony up enough to cover its cost. It's been mentioned, along with some other kickstarters, on Enworld, I imagine similar posts show up on other sites. Hopefully, it gathers enough steam over its remaining term to make the goal.

 

Like a lot of other posters, I'm pledged and I'm hopeful we'll get the book.

 

As to reward tiers, there seems to be a lot of different approaches on kickstarter, with no real science. If people value the reward, they'll pledge the extra cash. If not (or at least, if not to the price point), then they don't pledge that high, and hopefully they still pledge to the level of a copy of the book.

 

I also note the few lkickstarters I've really looked at generally have comments about international shipping, which has been a bone of contention to some posters. Fact is, shipping isn't cheap.

 

At least if a kickstarter goal isn't reached, the months of research and costs of production don't turn into a pile of inventory in the warehouse., so if there's only 100 or so people prepared to buy the physical book (and maybe the same again prepared to buy the .pdf), ultimately it may be a project best avoided from a business standpoint. Hopefully, demand for MH will pick up.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

The real question comes down to whether potential pledgers value the book enough to pony up enough to cover its cost.

 

Aye, there's the rub, as the Bard would say. And I definitely agree it's better to know now than after I've put in all the work!

 

So far the new thread over on ENWorld has done a good job; it's brought in three backers. That's triple the numbers and about double the money brought in from mentions on RPG.Net or RPGGeek. I don't know what, if any, statistically valid conclusions can be drawn from that, but it makes me glad the ENW thread was started.

[thewomble]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

I've got to say, regardless of what is the appropriate level of compensation for such a project in an ideal world, that the target for this Kickstarter is very ambitious compared to similar projects in today's market place. SL's talents may make him worthy of being put on a substantial salary to write the good stuff, but unfortunately that might not be realistic. Fingers crossed...

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

Well, I don't know how much of it is SL's "substantial" salary because it's going to take longer to write this one than might be true of other books because of its size.

 

A related question though, if this kickstarter doesn't go through, does that mean the book is sunk, or could the book be released in a series of cheaper volumes that would spread out the costs over time a little more? If Mythic Hero, Vols I-n each had a relatively easy price point and goal, I'd think it would be easier to get them done. Now, it wouldn't mean one great big glorious book, and you might need to put, say, the popular Greek, Norse, and Egyptian pantheons in different books to make the books more marketable, but I think this kind of book is worth pursuing in some form even if the market isn't big enough to absorb the costs all at once.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

I've got to say, regardless of what is the appropriate level of compensation for such a project in an ideal world, that the target for this Kickstarter is very ambitious compared to similar projects in today's market place. SL's talents may make him worthy of being put on a substantial salary to write the good stuff, but unfortunately that might not be realistic.

 

Realistic or not, it's a minimum value I place on my work given the time and effort involved, my skills, and similar factors. If anything it's too low; assuming a book the size of the HSB it comes out to a mere 6 cents a word, which is roughly the same as what I made freelancing 12-15 years ago. If that's going to keep the project from succeeding, c'est la vie; I'm not going to work for free or for substandard earnings.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

A related question though, if this kickstarter doesn't go through, does that mean the book is sunk, or could the book be released in a series of cheaper volumes that would spread out the costs over time a little more? If Mythic Hero, Vols I-n each had a relatively easy price point and goal, I'd think it would be easier to get them done. Now, it wouldn't mean one great big glorious book, and you might need to put, say, the popular Greek, Norse, and Egyptian pantheons in different books to make the books more marketable, but I think this kind of book is worth pursuing in some form even if the market isn't big enough to absorb the costs all at once.

 

Generally speaking, it almost certainly means the book is sunk, for a variety of reasons. First, I'm not really interested in doing it in pieces; it's less fun and is likely to lead to inconsistencies in the long run. Second, I'm not sure the backers' enthusiasm (and thus pledges) would remain over multiple smaller projects. Third, aside from perhaps eliminating the printing costs, breaking the book up into pieces isn't going to do much to reduce costs. I still want to pay myself a reasonable salary, want to pay the artists a reasonable amount for their work, and so on. If anything, I think splitting the book up into multiple volumes will man more work for me, not less, and thus more expense for the end customer.

 

I still very much want to do the book, and if the Kickstarter fails and I later think of some way to do it, I will. But aside from some wealthy fan subsidizing the whole thing I'm hard-pressed right now to think of what that "other way" might be. The sad truth is, if enough people don't want to pay for the book, enough people don't want to, and not much can be done to change that. It'd be a shame... but if that's the ultimate outcome, better to learn that now than after doing all the work.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

Well, I don't know how much of it is SL's "substantial" salary because it's going to take longer to write this one than might be true of other books because of its size.

 

You can find a full breakdown of the costs here:

 

Mythic HERO Cost Breakdown

[megaplayboy]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

That's helpful to know that, Steve. Your labor costs are going to be the same regardless of whether you were to divide the work up into mini-books or not(and then, the total publication costs would probably increase). I suppose we could have an art-free book(or you could copy and paste public domain art) but that would kinda suck. I hope, at least, that we can pass 50% funding in the next week. I think if we could get to that point, with two weeks to go, there could be a rallying cry to get it over the top.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

I suppose we could have an art-free book(or you could copy and paste public domain art) but that would kinda suck.

 

Agreed -- and in fact I'm not sure how much print-quality public domain art is available for most of these mythologies. Greek and Norse I have covered in that respect; and I have clip art of Egyptian gods taken from tombs and Aztec gods taken from the codices. But Hawaiian? Yoruban? Finnish? Maori? All of that stuff, and more, not so much. And even if I did that, stylistically it'd be all over the map (literally! ), which wouldn't make for a very attractive book.

 

Furthermore, even if I eliminate the art costs entirely, that only reduces the amount needed for the book to about $25,000... and the project's still a far cry even from that number.

 

 

I hope, at least, that we can pass 50% funding in the next week. I think if we could get to that point, with two weeks to go, there could be a rallying cry to get it over the top.

 

Seconded. Making 50% this week would be a big step.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

I think some Kickstarters incorporate some spec (eg. "Once I get it in the can, I can print more hard copies and/or sell more .pdf's") But I also don't see $3,000 a month as an exorbitant salary, and as you note, a number of your expenses are on spec as well. I think laying the costs out up front may be an eye opener for some consumers, but the reality is that small print run publications carry a pretty high per unit cost.

 

I appreciate the desire not to break the book up, or only include the popular mythoi as well. I suppose one approach would have been Goal A gets these mythoi; Goal B gets these added, etc., but that comes with the same problem of splitting the book and/or compromising the vision. And, frankly, there's lots of Greek, Norse and Egyptian material out there. The less known mythoi have more room for real stimulation of the imagination.

 

If the result is that the demand doesn't cover the costs, I'll be sorry the book won't be produced (perhaps in a few years if the market matures to realistic price points), but at least Hero and you won't be out a bunch of investment for a product that doesn't generate a realistic return. Here's hoping the pledges start rolling in!

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

I think laying the costs out up front may be an eye opener for some consumers, but the reality is that small print run publications carry a pretty high per unit cost.

 

If nothing else, hopefully explaining the costs will prove educational... or perhaps I should say, "foster some debate on the subject," knowing the way the Internet works.

 

 

I suppose one approach would have been Goal A gets these mythoi; Goal B gets these added, etc., but that comes with the same problem of splitting the book and/or compromising the vision.

 

Exactly so. I thought about that approach briefly, but I discarded it because I want to write this Big Book of All Mythologies. I don't want to end up writing a Short Book of Just a Few Mythologies simply because an early goal was reached and later goals weren't.

[djkester]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

If this kickstarter fails I believe its 100% based on the size of the Hero System community. There is no lack of support from this community and Steve's made his position very clear and he's done the work to promote the product. I do not believe it will fail but if the final support does not come in it means we the community need to turn our attention at attracting people to this system. And products need to be focused on growing the consumers of the products.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

Actually, I had a small epiphany yesterday - the nature of this book is such that it should have appeal broader than the Hero System players.

 

A discussion on building a Pantheon should be useful to any fantasy world-builder, at a minimum.

 

All that data on all those mythoi would make it much easier to incorporate them into another game (say, as a Supers team pantheon, or assigning d20 Domains - in fact, I wonder how much interest just offering d20 domains for all the deities might create - not a likely add-on, I know, especially at this late date).

 

And let's be realistic - at $75 for 300 - 400 pages, does the price point really depart that much from other Kickstarters? You're getting a lot of book for your buck.

 

The question is how to spread that word to potential buyers who don't currently realize how useful such a book might be to non-Hero system gamers.

[megaplayboy]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

Steve, will there be a short blurb anywhere addressing deities as superheroes? It's a pretty common genre trope.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

the nature of this book is such that it should have appeal broader than the Hero System players.

 

Agreed. I made sure to mention early on the KS page that "The information in it is useful for any roleplaying game[,]" but unfortunately by and large that doesn't matter. While some gamers will buy just about anything useful and convert it to other systems as needed, most seem to want only books specifically set up for the game they prefer. Such is human nature, I s'pose.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO Kickstarter

 

If this kickstarter fails I believe its 100% based on the size of the Hero System community. There is no lack of support from this community and Steve's made his position very clear and he's done the work to promote the product. I do not believe it will fail but if the final support does not come in it means we the community need to turn our attention at attracting people to this system. And products need to be focused on growing the consumers of the products.

 

I'd be less inclined to blame the size of the HERO System community (though that's certainly a factor). Instead I think it's the nature of the HERO community. Almost by definition the HERO System tends to appeal to gamers who like to do a lot of their own work, who are comfortable with nuts-and-bolts "tinkering," and thus who aren't necessarily interested in buying supplements (particularly settings and scenarios). They're iconoclastic and sometimes quirky customers, but such is part of their enduring charm.

 

As I've often said, in some respects the HERO System, as a commercial thing, contains within itself the seeds of its own destruction. Its devoted followers tend to be the sort of gamers who are veeerrry picky about what they buy. Indeed, a significant percentage of them are attracted to HERO precisely because it requires no purchases beyond the rulebook.

 

There are something like 1,000 "active" users of these message boards (or there generally used to be -- the number may go up and down periodically, I haven't tracked it recently). In theory if each of those "actives" were willing to pledge let's say $25, virtually any HERO System Kickstarter would succeed on that alone, and many would succeed by a significant margin. But the fact is that getting that sort of 100% participation is impossible. Some of them never learn about the Kickstarter (even in the Internet age, getting the word out is tough, even to a dedicated community), some of them don't like or trust the Kickstarter process, some of them only want Champions-related material, some of them don't care of the subject of any given supplement regardless of its other merits, some of them don't have $25 to spare at that particular time, and some don't want the book for another reason. That's just the way it goes, same for any other product in our society.

 

Edit/follow-up: according to the front page there are currently 1,688 active users. Obviously some of those may be bots or what have you; I have no idea how that number's determined. That means the MH Kickstarter currently has backers equal to almost exactly 10% of the current active users. I can't say what percentage of those two groups overlap, though. The Hero Games website is only directly responsible for 40% of the MH backers (and 38% of the dollars), but I have no doubt that many of the remaining 60% are among the 1,688 and just got to the KS through some other portal.