Ninja-Bear Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? That depends. If you think Hero=Champions and only want to play or run superheroes who are so mighty that ordinary people all pale into insignificance, you probably don't care if there is no effective distinction between Aunt May and Lois Lane and Sgt Rock. All they're supposed to be is helpless mortals. If, like me, you're not really that into comics and want to play at the heroic rather than superheroic level, then yeah, you'll care about a lot of finer grained distinctions that would be too small to measure from the point of view of Superman or the Hulk. Lucius Alexander Introducing Palindromedary and Superpalindromedary by George Burnart Pshaw I'm just wondering where you want to make the gradations. I would love to see strength broken down for the Heroic level. i had in my mind something where each 5pts wouldn't double but only 1 1/2 in power. (If I'm doing my math right) Then 15 STR would be equvilant to 13 STR in lifting. The only way I could see doing it right now without a major overhaul would be giving the character 15 STR and a phy. lim. only to lift at 13 STR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamstreamer Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? If' date=' like me, you're not really that into comics and want to play at the heroic rather than superheroic level, then yeah, you'll care about a lot of finer grained distinctions that would be too small to measure from the point of view of Superman or the Hulk.[/quote'] Isn't this very subject addressed in the "Toolkitting: The Strength Table" section on 6EV1:43? Of course, that does require a measure of work to rewrite the strength table... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamstreamer Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? why dont we make turns 24 segments long' date=' and then just double speed[/quote'] I can't tell if this is a serious question, so forgive me if it isn't. Would the turn be the same amount of time? Or are you thinking that a phase should take a 1/2 second? 1/2 phase would be 1/4 second then, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? I've seen this complaint before' date=' about gradations at the lower level. I'm curious though, how much gradations do we need, or want?[/quote'] I don't consider it so much a complaint as an observation. If we want more gradations, change the human maximum. This can easily be done game by game. If we want to differentiate a slow normal, a normal, a fast normal (say beat cop or soldier out of boot camp), an experienced combatant (say an experienced cop or soldier), elite forces (SWAT team; trained Navy SEAL), experienced elite forces (experiences SWAT team; experienced Navy SEAL), top notch elite forces (team leader for SWAT or SEAL team) and the "best of the best", that's eight possible levels. With options limited to, say, 1 - 4 SPD, or primary stats of 3 - 20, we get 4 gradations in SPD, and 4 different base rolls for primaries, so some of these have to be the same. Since we've established Normals have an 8 stat and a 2 SPD, that leaves three gradations for seven categories of characters. We could certainly decide a "fast normal" has a 2 SPD and a 13 DEX, and create gradations of 3 SPD/DEX 13-15; 3 SPD, DEX 18, 4 SPD DEX 18-20, but that's still four gradations for 7 categories. How many categories do we need, and how much difference need there be between them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? So everyone that isn't a PC or fairly important NPC should be a small child? Well, no, obviously small children have an INT higher than 5. My slightly fuzzy point is that the characters we play in games will tend toward the exceptional, and I would rather have space above the 'normal mark' than below it. STR 5 means that a character can lift 110 lbs. That is quite a lot, depending on how you lift it. A character with an INT of 5 spots things 50% of the time. That is really quite a lot. A 1d6 bullet can kill a person with Body 5 even if they are not shot in the head! Forget what we have always thought to be true and look at what the numbers actually mean. STR matters in 2 or 3 point jumps. Every point of DEX, PRE and EGO and CON count in some way and INT only matters in 5 point increments. Skills are a bit blocky too, with current normals having a 62.5% success rate for most skills they possess. Which is pretty worryingly impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? ...and, to drag it back on target, SPD 1 gives you plenty of room to be better. Yes, you could use PRE rules to decide that being shot at means you choke and lose an action but, well, that would take forever if we applied it to characters (I'm not saying it is an unrealistic approach, just not one that will speed up the game). SPD is a kind of shorthand for how someone reacts in a crisis or pressure situation. A SPD 1 normal probably has the physical ability to act more than once in a turn, but does not do so, or spends their other actions cowering and ducking. Like I would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torchwolf Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? Well, no, obviously small children have an INT higher than 5. My slightly fuzzy point is that the characters we play in games will tend toward the exceptional, and I would rather have space above the 'normal mark' than below it. STR 5 means that a character can lift 110 lbs. That is quite a lot, depending on how you lift it. A character with an INT of 5 spots things 50% of the time. That is really quite a lot. A 1d6 bullet can kill a person with Body 5 even if they are not shot in the head! Forget what we have always thought to be true and look at what the numbers actually mean. STR matters in 2 or 3 point jumps. Every point of DEX, PRE and EGO and CON count in some way and INT only matters in 5 point increments. Skills are a bit blocky too, with current normals having a 62.5% success rate for most skills they possess. Which is pretty worryingly impressive. "Average: [...] The normal people characters interact with during the game tend to have Characteristics of about 5-8; heroes start with 10s because they're exceptional persons' date=' destined for greatness."[/quote'] The chart on page 48 gives "Average" Primary Characteristics of 6-10; CVs (all) 2-3; SPD 1-2; PD/ED 3-4; REC 2-4; END 11-20; BODY 6-10; STUN 12-20; Running 7-12; Leaping 3-4; Swimming 3-4 (it says 30m in my book but I kind of suspect a typo). The "Average" category (and to a lesser extent the Skilled and Competent categories) of these benchmarks is fairly broad. I think this is the greatest source of Characteristics inflation and non-granularity in at least Heroic genre games - most players will want their character to end up at least one or two categories above "average" in several (or most) respects. So, to increase granularity without having numbers shooting through the roof, I agree with Sean* - redefining "Average" is the way to go. A Skill Roll of 10-** seem perfectly reasonable for an average person. For my own purposes, I added more categories and put my "Average" as being at the lower half of the official "Average" (Char 5-6), and the upper half as "Above Average" (Char 7-8), with some other Characteristics (mainly the combat-related) in even higher Categories. I'd say most average healthy children would have Characteristics of 3-4, not 3-5 as the Comparison Table claims. It may seem nitpicky but I want Characteristics of 8 to be "healthy, strong, able" individuals rather than having those value at 10 or higher. *assuming of course that I understood Sean correctly **Skills and Skill Rolls - oh boy, that would fill a thread in itself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted January 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? Well, no, obviously small children have an INT higher than 5. My slightly fuzzy point is that the characters we play in games will tend toward the exceptional, and I would rather have space above the 'normal mark' than below it. STR 5 means that a character can lift 110 lbs. That is quite a lot, depending on how you lift it. A character with an INT of 5 spots things 50% of the time. That is really quite a lot. A 1d6 bullet can kill a person with Body 5 even if they are not shot in the head! . Isn't a Head shot x2 Body? A Body 5 person dies at -5 so a 5+ roll kills them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice9 Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? A 1d6 bullet can kill a person with Body 5 even if they are not shot in the head! I'm with you on this. I feel like the normal 8 BODY is ok for some genres - even "normal" people tend to be more durable in a lot of comics and pulp - but if you want gritty, then the standard should be more like 4 (or else weapon damage should be much higher). Skills are a bit blocky too' date=' with current normals having a 62.5% success rate for most skills they possess. Which is pretty worryingly impressive.[/quote']That's pretty dependent on which skills you mean. Jump a motorcycle over a flaming truck? Sure, that should probably have less base chance. But for normal job skills, having even a 10% chance of failure can be unreasonably high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted January 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? Isn't a Head shot x2 Body? A Body 5 person dies at -5 so a 5+ roll kills them? Err, sorry misread you there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? I don't consider it so much a complaint as an observation. That's a better wording of what I was thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? ...and, to drag it back on target, SPD 1 gives you plenty of room to be better. Yes, you could use PRE rules to decide that being shot at means you choke and lose an action but, well, that would take forever if we applied it to characters (I'm not saying it is an unrealistic approach, just not one that will speed up the game). SPD is a kind of shorthand for how someone reacts in a crisis or pressure situation. A SPD 1 normal probably has the physical ability to act more than once in a turn, but does not do so, or spends their other actions cowering and ducking. Like I would. Well I was thinking of not so much using the PRE rules but just a rationale of why the NPCs act the way they do. And if someone asks, you say well they failed the PRE attack Like I said the PC's shouldn't have to roll-they're heroes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? I can't tell if this is a serious question' date=' so forgive me if it isn't. Would the turn be the same amount of time? Or are you thinking that a phase should take a 1/2 second? 1/2 phase would be 1/4 second then, right?[/quote']No - a turn would last 24 seconds and a starting spd of 4 allows you to act four times that turn. the increased gradiation means that you can have characters of SPD 5 which would be the equivalent of SPD 2.5 in the 12 segment version Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? No - a turn would last 24 seconds and a starting spd of 4 allows you to act four times that turn. the increased gradiation means that you can have characters of SPD 5 which would be the equivalent of SPD 2.5 in the 12 segment version Great idea. But needs more explanation. Lucius Alexander SPD 13 palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? No - a turn would last 24 seconds and a starting spd of 4 allows you to act four times that turn. the increased gradiation means that you can have characters of SPD 5 which would be the equivalent of SPD 2.5 in the 12 segment version What about END usage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? What about END usage?either double END and REC, or allow for both segment 12 and segment 24 recoveries Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? What about END usage? Have a post segment 12 recovery as well as a post segment 24 recovery. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary breaks for half time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? why dont we make turns 24 segments long' date=' and then just double speed[/quote'] It's a little more complicated than that. I made some 15- and 20-Segment Speed Charts during the 6e discussions, and making sure there weren't any anomalies (slower SPDs going first or unevenly distributed Phases) was tricky. (I'm still not sure that I got SPDs 13-14 right.) You also need to adjust the cost of SPD, to keep characters from being priced out of the higher end. (You may also need to change the price of Movement Powers to keep relative mobility the same, but I didn't explore that.) And, as others have indicated, you need to account for there being relatively fewer end-of-turn Recoveries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? Remeember this would be for a heroic game, so higher speed would not occur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? Remeember this would be for a heroic game' date=' so higher speed would not occur[/quote'] If you don't change the price you're going to wind up with SPDs in the 3-5 range, same as with the standard chart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Paranoia I just want you all to know I'm feeling a little freaked out at present: several people have agreed with me or at least not substantially demurred, all in one thread. Am I losing it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? I don't like the idea Sean. Your wrong, it could never work. You'ld have to be crazy to try that. You're overthinking this.... (There, does that feel better? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Re: Paranoia I just want you all to know I'm feeling a little freaked out at present: several people have agreed with me or at least not substantially demurred' date=' [i']all in one thread[/i]. Am I losing it? Well it is the end of the world. At least says the Mayans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Re: Paranoia I just want you all to know I'm feeling a little freaked out at present: several people have agreed with me or at least not substantially demurred' date=' [i']all in one thread[/i]. Am I losing it? Sean Waters! What are you doing still on the loose? Hey everybody! That's the guy who keeps making the system more and more complicated! He's the reason we have a 6th edition in two volumes! GET 'IM! Lucius Alexander Giving chase on a palindromedary, as soon as I get the palindromedary to stop laughing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Re: Why is Speed so unpopular? Just had a brain wave - would we see more diversity in SPDs if it was cheaper? Time for a thought experiment. Let's start with a character with SPD 3, normally 10 points. Dropping the cost to 8 probably wouldn't change anything, but if it was 6 the player might buy SPD 4 for an additional 2 points. The character with SPD 4 (20 points) has more options. At 8 points he might go for a 5 SPD (additional 4 points). At 6 points he would definitely buy SPD 5 (saving 2 points), and might even go to SPD 6 (24 points total). I'm starting to think that SPD may be overpriced in a heroic game, even without considering NCM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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