Why is Speed so unpopular?

[Christopher]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I personally prefer a "Hard Cap" of 25. Having a hard cap of 30 makes STR of non-powered characters far too high. STR 25 is a far more realistic cap for campaigns that trend more toward realism. And because STR can't realistically reach a 30' date=' the other characteristics must fall into line with it.[/quote']

I think that is simply overfocussing on the Lifting Weight. If 30 STR wouldn't mean 1.6 Tons of lifting, it's just 6d6 damage that costs endurance.

I think the reason taht they didn't simply took STR 15 and 3 more Martial Arts DC, is that Martial Arts DC don't add to non-martial Maneuvers. And an experienced warrior, even if he lacks Martial Grab (and thus couldn't add the DC to his holding STR), should still be more able to hold someone more easily than a HTH-fearing EP.

[casualplayer]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I'm a much bigger fan of the 4 SPD Batman who has Aided SPD against anyone whose style he has studied. It's why he's always parked in front of the Batcomputer or skulks a fight before he jumps in IMO. It's also why random mook swarms can sometimes give him a good workout, why he doesn't do as well against things that surprise him, why unpredictable unpowered lunatics challenge him successfully and why he keeps files on everyone including his friends. Against the unknown Bats is a 4 SPD, against the known maybe a 6 or even up to an 8. Again IMO.

 

Daredevil is a "normal human" who got hit in the face with a chunk of radioactive material and suddenly got much more agile and could taste how many grains of salt were on a cracker. I don't think he's operating under any NCM constraints on SPD. A whole lot of characters that profess to be "normal humans" have a transitive event in their backstory that is pretty analogous to being belted by gamma rays.

 

But anyway one way I address one of the complaints about SPD, the predictability and repetitiveness, is that I don't start conflicts on Phase 12. I start them on Phase 2d6, meaning most often on Phase 7 but not predictably so. Not a lot of people go on Segment 7 (but SPD 7 does!) but a whole lot of commonly occurring SPDs go immediately afterwards on Segment 8: SPDs 3, 5, 6, 8 on up. It makes it harder for people to game the Post-12 REC, a game that usually looks something like no evasion and an alpha strike then use whatever END/STUN they have left for the rest of the battle. It means the person who invested a lot of character points into SPD likely goes first but doesn't assuredly go first, while still meaning that they will almost always get more actions/Turn than characters with lower SPD. Anytime there's a major resetting of the scene I reroll the starting Segment. If I'm able to get together a group comfortable with trimming the SPDs back to nearer-superagent levels I might start using 2d6/2 or 2d6-3. Don't know just yet.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I'm a much bigger fan of the 4 SPD Batman who has Aided SPD against anyone whose style he has studied. It's why he's always parked in front of the Batcomputer or skulks a fight before he jumps in IMO. It's also why random mook swarms can sometimes give him a good workout, why he doesn't do as well against things that surprise him, why unpredictable unpowered lunatics challenge him successfully and why he keeps files on everyone including his friends. Against the unknown Bats is a 4 SPD, against the known maybe a 6 or even up to an 8. Again IMO.

...

 

That could all be simulated with Limited CSL's/PSL's vs. Multiple Attack penalties. Having 2 levels of SPD is not necessary.

[Ice9]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Allowing 3 or more Overall Levels as a Framework slot can cover this in a little more defined way.

Just assign a roll to complete the task as fast as humanly possible and then every step down the Time Chart is -3 to that base roll.

Overall Levels can be applied to almost any roll skill or otherwise (Cramming is the only exception) so the only GM required handwave is allowing the levels in the Framework to begin with.

This is totally doable in HERO. Actions/skills that have a base time can still be performed in a shorter amount of time for a penalty of -2 (or -1 or -3 or whatever) per step on the Time Chart that a character attempts make it faster. Skill Levels could be purchased that counteract those penalties' date=' and thus allow a character to perform a skill or action much faster than normal.[/quote']

Not quite what I was getting at with my example. While a GM could fudge things a bit and say "if you make a good enough Systems Operation check, you can do this", it's certainly not how it would go strictly by the rules.

 

I'm talking about a situation where, in a single combat round, the Flash needs to:

* Enter several different rooms, with doors that may be closed.

* Type commands on a computer in each room.

* Close and lock the door behind him when he leaves the room.

 

This is certainly conceptually within his capabilities, but HERO does not generally let you do things as less than a half-phase action, or split your movement into more than two parts with actions between each part. The closest thing I can think of (without a special power to do exactly this) is allowing skill use in place of attacks as part of a Multiple Move-by - which would be an exception to the normal rules.

 

Now it's an exception many GMs may make - I would - but for those that don't, you get the "capability gap" phenomenon.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Not quite what I was getting at with my example. While a GM could fudge things a bit and say "if you make a good enough Systems Operation check, you can do this", it's certainly not how it would go strictly by the rules.

 

I'm talking about a situation where, in a single combat round, the Flash needs to:

* Enter several different rooms, with doors that may be closed.

* Type commands on a computer in each room.

* Close and lock the door behind him when he leaves the room.

 

This is certainly conceptually within his capabilities, but HERO does not generally let you do things as less than a half-phase action, or split your movement into more than two parts with actions between each part. The closest thing I can think of (without a special power to do exactly this) is allowing skill use in place of attacks as part of a Multiple Move-by - which would be an exception to the normal rules.

 

Now it's an exception many GMs may make - I would - but for those that don't, you get the "capability gap" phenomenon.

 

 

I really don't think this a GM Fudge required situation since it's a non-combat example that you are describing. I don't see the problem with defining how long it would take a normal (2 SPD) person to do and let a speedster like Flash first divide that time by how much more SPD he has (if a 6 SPD, divide by 3) then take that time and apply the -3 per step down the Speed Chart (It can only be reduced down to a Turn anyway). If the Speedster in question has a VPP (my starting version of Flash does) they could easily have a Cosmetic Transform or Change Environment slot that could be combined with their movement and levels to explain the fine detail stuff in your example as well.

 

...And then there is always the Enter The Speedzone ability introduced in Ultimate Speedster (5e).

[Christopher]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

...And then there is always the Enter The Speedzone ability introduced in Ultimate Speedster (5e).

The APG II 97 also has Speed Zone Rules for 6E.

But overall, since it's a non-combat thing and he is likely to not encouter anyone in those rooms (that could stop him), it's propably just using Megascale movement + the (Overall) Skill Levels as described by Hyperman.

[casualplayer]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

...And then there is always the Enter The Speedzone ability introduced in Ultimate Speedster (5e).

 

I would be fine with this horrible hammer of handwavium if characters using it had to buy Transdimensional for all the abilities they plan to use on the real world when they are in The Speed Zone. But then it might actually be costed equivalent to utility.... There's not many things I out-and-out oppose in HERO but this is one. It makes about as much sense as creating a power Enter the Krypton Zone, because I really want to play Superman but he costs too many points to emulate.

 

An imaginative speedster usually has a MP or VPP of Speed Tricks. Want to search a whole building in a second for the McGuffin? Detect McGuffin or Clairsentience, and lost things are always in the last place you look. Type on multiple keyboards? Indirect TK, Stretching that does not cross intervening space, Extra Limbs, many possibilities. Lots of speedster schticks are just levels to move things down the Time Chart. Anyone could disassemble the MegaCannon in 2 seconds, at -16 to their skill roll, and Hyperdrive does it without batting an eye.

[Lucius]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I would be fine with this horrible hammer of handwavium if characters using it had to buy Transdimensional for all the abilities they plan to use on the real world when they are in The Speed Zone.

 

They don't?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Enter the Palindromedary Zone

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I'm a much bigger fan of the 4 SPD Batman who has Aided SPD against anyone whose style he has studied. It's why he's always parked in front of the Batcomputer or skulks a fight before he jumps in IMO. It's also why random mook swarms can sometimes give him a good workout' date=' why he doesn't do as well against things that surprise him, why unpredictable unpowered lunatics challenge him successfully and why he keeps files on everyone including his friends. Against the unknown Bats is a 4 SPD, against the known maybe a 6 or even up to an 8. Again IMO.[/quote']

 

I think that "I'm a much bigger fan" and "IMO" is the key. This is the way you want the character to work, and the way you'll play him. Great. But don't tell the player whose vision is different that he's required to do it your way, any more than you should accept him deciding an 8 SPD is the minimum possible in a game where 6 SPD reflects the Fastest Man Alive. It's ab out a build that meets the player's vision as set in the GM's campaign.

 

Sometimes, that may mean disallowing certain concepts entirely. The EP example above is one example. "All normals are inferior" is another. A third might be "the strongest, most powerful Super known" in a game patterned on Irredeemable - that role is filled by the Plutonian, so it's not available to PC's. However, the more we need to disallow, the more the GM is stepping on the players' imaginations and desired characters.

 

I'd finally note that restricting Bats to a 4 SPD, then allowing him a much greater SPD if he's studied the foe/is familiar with the foe, seems like simply allowing the normal human a superhuman Speed anyway. And how does this work if Bats is fighting a villain he has studied, and his three hired thugs, who he has never seen before? Seems a lot of the elegance disappears in that scenario.

 

Are you OK with the GM telling you "Just give Bats a 6 SPD and buy skill levels that only work against targets he has studied" to impose his vision of how your character should work?

 

Daredevil is a "normal human" who got hit in the face with a chunk of radioactive material and suddenly got much more agile and could taste how many grains of salt were on a cracker. I don't think he's operating under any NCM constraints on SPD. A whole lot of characters that profess to be "normal humans" have a transitive event in their backstory that is pretty analogous to being belted by gamma rays.

 

Conceptually, the radiation affected his sense, not his physical characteristics, so if the rule is "concept must include artificially enhanced/superhuman agility", I don't see him as qualifying. Similaerly, Captain America has the Super Soldier Serum, but that concept says it augmented him to a peak human, not beyond, so not superhuman.

 

But I can solve the Batman/GA conundrum. Bats was a normal kid until the transitive events of his parents being killed in front of him, which so focused him on the desire to prevent such an event ever occuring again that it triggered his superhuman willpower and resolve, which has enabled him to train himself far beyond the limits of ordinary humans. [Whether that means he always has a 6 - 8 SPD or means he can achieve such SPD under limited circumstances, whether that's against opponents he's studied, or for a limited period per day, or only when fighting criminals with guns, I leave to the player's vision of the character). GA was full of alcohol and possibly other substances, dumped in the ocean (who knows what contaminants might coincidentally have been drifting by), washed up on a desert island (was it used to store nuclear waste, unknown to anyone) and had to survive on his own. Even without my fanciful additions, we clearly have a transitive event - at least, if one wishes to interpret it that way, which a player considering GA a 6 SPD character may wish to do in order to merge his concept with the GM's requirements.

 

But anyway one way I address one of the complaints about SPD' date=' the predictability and repetitiveness, is that I don't start conflicts on Phase 12. I start them on Phase 2d6, meaning most often on Phase 7 but not predictably so. Not a lot of people go on Segment 7 (but SPD 7 does!) but a whole lot of commonly occurring SPDs go immediately afterwards on Segment 8: SPDs 3, 5, 6, 8 on up. It makes it harder for people to game the Post-12 REC, a game that usually looks something like no evasion and an alpha strike then use whatever END/STUN they have left for the rest of the battle. It means the person who invested a lot of character points into SPD likely goes first but doesn't assuredly go first, while still meaning that they will almost always get more actions/Turn than characters with lower SPD. Anytime there's a major resetting of the scene I reroll the starting Segment. If I'm able to get together a group comfortable with trimming the SPDs back to nearer-superagent levels I might start using 2d6/2 or 2d6-3. Don't know just yet.

 

I don't find the alpha strike issue occurs in my games, so it's never been a problem. I find that's an issue of mechanics over role playing, exacerbated where Pushing is allowed whenever the characters feel like it, rather than being restricted to truly heroic and desperate actions. If the game group allowed pushing as an everyday (every combat) occurrence, then why not load up the END (it's cheap, after all) and Push your campaighn max DC powers as a matter of routine?

[Christopher]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I'd finally note that restricting Bats to a 4 SPD' date=' then allowing him a much greater SPD if he's studied the foe/is familiar with the foe, seems like simply allowing the normal human a superhuman Speed anyway. And how does this work if Bats is fighting a villain he has studied, and his three hired thugs, who he has never seen before? Seems a lot of the elegance disappears in that scenario.[/quote']

From his description I would say it only works if he knows all the enemies in the fight. For mooks, the person isn't that important, only his mook type counts (who those five nameless Joker Goons are is not really relevant; relevant is what powers/weapons they have - aka what sheet they use).

 

Conceptually' date=' the radiation affected his sense, not his physical characteristics, so if the rule is "concept must include artificially enhanced/superhuman agility", I don't see him as qualifying. Similaerly, Captain America has the Super Soldier Serum, but that concept says it augmented him to a peak human, not beyond, so not superhuman.[/quote']

That sounds like his brain was affeted, wich could easily give him superhuman coordiantion and reflexes.

 

But I can solve the Batman/GA conundrum. Bats was a normal kid until the transitive events of his parents being killed in front of him' date=' which so focused him on the desire to prevent such an event ever occuring again that it triggered his superhuman willpower and resolve, which has enabled him to train himself far beyond the limits of ordinary humans. [...'] GA was full of alcohol and possibly other substances, dumped in the ocean (who knows what contaminants might coincidentally have been drifting by), washed up on a desert island (was it used to store nuclear waste, unknown to anyone) and had to survive on his own.

For me Batman or Captain America are just as superhuman as Superman or Thor. City of Heros shows that good with the five origin types:

Science

Mutation

Magic

Technology

Natural (as in "Peak human traning")

 

None of them has any advantage or disadvantage, and that is how I think the comicbook and cartoon examples show it as well.

[casualplayer]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I think that "I'm a much bigger fan" and "IMO" is the key.

 

I know it's key. I included it because it's key. I leave out the things I determine are "off-key." Everything I put up here is my opinion, most often game-tested. Sadly I have to periodically remind people that what I put up here is In My Opinion because otherwise they get all persnickety about some perceived implied criticism of their game.

 

It's the GM's responsibility, if they are going to run a pot-luck game, to make the people bringing a dish aware of the tastes of the table and the theme of the party. If I'm hosting a wine tasting party don't bring scotch. If I'm hosting a Fourth of July party don't bring a cheese log in the shape of a giant upraised finger, not if you expect to stay. If I leave it open-invite I should politely welcome whoever and whatever shows up. It's the players' responsibility to pay attention to those expressed guidelines and try not to bring a dish poisonous or offensive to the host or other guests.

 

Whenever I put a house rule out there, I'm talking about "my house," my game. If I came to your house, I expect to play by your rules. I might make some suggestions along the way but I wouldn't be offended if you said "No" and I would try to stay on the right side of polite. I wouldn't try to sneak one past you or only comply when you're paying close attention. If I'm not comfortable or happy there, I'll think of somewhere else to be the next time I get an invite.

 

It's all relative. I've stepped into con games where the mean SPD was 7 and the 6 SPD Martial Artist I brought was a plodding fool. I've heard of games that loop the Speed chart allowing SPDs past 12. In a fantasy realm the serfs have a 2 SPD and the agile rogues have a 4. We probably should start talking Mean -2 to represent "slow" and Mean +2 to represent "cat-like reflexes" and leave determining Mean as an exercise for the student.

 

So anyway, I mentioned before that I use Normal Characteristic Maxima as a distinguishing feature in my games. It means that you have a likely range of capabilities, that you certainly can exceed but if someone witnesses you doing so is likely going to say "That thing's not human!" or "Unbelievable!" and will react accordingly. It also means that the average doctor who might be stumped entirely by your alien teammate's triple hearts will however be able to fix you up and have a good idea how you will react to most drugs. It also means that the power dampening technology that exists in my world fizzles entirely against you because you have no powers. Remember when the X-Men were trapped on Magneto's Island in X-Men #150 and think about how much even more badass Robin would have been if he would have been along for the ride. It's a feature and a flaw, a combination of Non-distinct Features, Physical Limitation and Prevalence, Social Limitation and Freedom. It's only for those who want to triumph over even greater odds than the other players because they are willingly forgoing the option of point build efficiency. It's not for everyone. Even among my players very few have opted for it: some superagents, some martial artists, some power armor guys.

 

I have found that if you let people both have all the benefits of being human, unrestricted interaction with the world, and free rein to play whatever they want that the humans disappear. Just like most fantasy groups, with maybe, grudgingly one unadulterated human (and they are usually some god's pet Paladin!) So I both play up the drawbacks of being non-human on Earth and ask my non-human players to have some complications related to their non-humanity. Being Kryptonian comes with a nasty allergy to an otherwise harmless rock.

 

But back to Speed. If you want, and I allow, your Green Arrow homage to have a flat 8 SPD, how is a kid with a switchblade ever a threat? Do I give the kid some PCP or Venom and ratchet his SPD up to 9? Do I attack you with 64 kids with switchblades? Do I look at you incredulously when you complain that you don't get enough street-level adventures? Sorry, but you have made yourself too high-class for the street. If you insist and make your Batman homage with a flat 7 SPD then I have to make my Joker homage with a SPD like Spider-Man, and suddenly my Joker can run a 1 minute mile. "Sorry boys, I'm giving up crime to play wide receiver for the Raiders."

 

It's

[Bloodstone]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I would be fine with this horrible hammer of handwavium if characters using it had to buy Transdimensional for all the abilities they plan to use on the real world when they are in The Speed Zone. But then it might actually be costed equivalent to utility....

 

But they DO need to purchase Transdimensional, as well as various perception powers so that they can perceive at Speed Zone speeds.

 

In game terms' date=' the speedster uses Extra-Dimensional Movement to “enter” this “dimension,” and abilities with the Transdimensional Advantage to affect targets in the “normal-speed world.” Since Extra-Dimensional Movement and Transdimensional are both “Stop Sign” game elements, the GM should examine these powers carefully before permitting them.[/quote']

 

This is also reiterated on p258 - under Ancillary Abilities.

[Martin2]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Is Bat Man a good example of maximum “normal” characteristics?

 

Firstly which Bat Man are we talking about? Recent film incarnations? His 1939 one or one of his many comic book incarnations since?

 

Also these are comic book characters and not limited by character points and can change from issue to issue.

 

Also the speed 7 Bat Man some people want are probably talking about a very experienced Bat Man that is no longer a starting “normal human” with a lot of just escaping from traps and lots of training and poisoning etc which the GM allowed as a reason to up his Speed to 7 with a logical SFX on training and possible mutate?

 

If we are talking about comic book characters these are bad examples for starting point examples as most are decades old and the interpretation of their first outing as a “normal human” who just puts on his suit and fights crime gets lost in the hero worship etc. Different writers will interpret his characteristics slightly differently from comic to comic and are not limited by limits.

 

Every hero has a super power that makes him different and why not a side effect to increase speed etc beyond the normal. Martial artist wants a speed of 6 and the max human is 4 and the GM allows it – SFX his martial arts teacher was a mystic and infused him with mystic energy or could teach him to be faster than your normal human etc.

 

In some comics Bat Man may also have 15, 20, 25 or 30 Strength (backed up with martial arts) to strike down foes. The fact that he doesn’t bench press a proportionate amount does not mean he did not get an equivalent strength for decking a tough villain or breaking out from / restrain a strong villain (Strength +10 only for dice damage and grapples and not lifting strength, limitation-?).

 

I personally limited my non-speedster players to speed 5, and no one picked a speedster SFX.

 

We are having a break and when we restart I will be allowing 2 characters with speed 4 to increase to 5 with EXP and character rewrites (now that I understand limitations etc better) to make the game flow more smoothly. This will be explained away by the slower characters are now more experienced in combat and they have reached the speed of the other character. They are faster than normal humans (Speed 4) as they are heroes (and all are mutants or mutates).

 

The GM should bench mark the speed and the players should fit in with their SFX. Characters brought in blind should be changed up or down to fit the GM's idea of speed not the player.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

From his description I would say it only works if he knows all the enemies in the fight. For mooks' date=' the person isn't that important, only his mook type counts (who those five nameless Joker Goons are is not really relevant; relevant is what powers/weapons they have - aka what sheet they use).[/quote']

 

So always have one Thug along and we depower Bats.

 

That sounds like his brain was affeted' date=' wich could easily give him superhuman coordiantion and reflexes.[/quote']

 

Perhaps to you. The comics have never suggested that Cap's brain was affected, to my recollection, and they have always classified his reflexes, agility and other abilities as "peak human", not "superhuman". They have also left him competitive with Supers, being able to battle the Hulk, Hercules, and many other Bricks, being recognized as incredibly skilled and agile by most opponents. This implies those opponents do not have "peak human" levels of SPD or DEX, much less Superhuman.

 

If the game establishes 23 DEX and 5 SPD as the minimum to not be a "slow Super", it must then follow either that:

 

- "well trained/peak humans" can reach even higher DEX and SPD, and commonly (for characters interacting with Supers on their level) do - so we can have Bats and Cap

- "well trained/peak humans" cap out well below even typical/slow Supers, so they cannot compete - Bats and Cap as they operate in the source material can't compete in this game.

 

For me Batman or Captain America are just as superhuman as Superman or Thor. City of Heros shows that good with the five origin types:

 

None of them has any advantage or disadvantage, and that is how I think the comicbook and cartoon examples show it as well.

 

For me as well. But that means I allow Cap or Bats to have a 30 DEX and 6 SPD, as a "peak human" and use the norms of the CU, or I cap them at 20 DEX and 4 SPD, establish that this is "peak human", establish that other Supers generally have lower DEX and SPD (with DEX 8, SPD 2 being viable, and DEX 11-15, SPD 3 being pretty common). [And CV's about 1/3 of DEX in 6e, with decoupling).

 

It's all relative. I've stepped into con games where the mean SPD was 7 and the 6 SPD Martial Artist I brought was a plodding fool. I've heard of games that loop the Speed chart allowing SPDs past 12. In a fantasy realm the serfs have a 2 SPD and the agile rogues have a 4. We probably should start talking Mean -2 to represent "slow" and Mean +2 to represent "cat-like reflexes" and leave determining Mean as an exercise for the student.

 

I find there are two issues. One is setting the mean, where I agree that Batman could have a 4 SPD and be perfectly in concept in some games, but have a 7 SPD and be woefully inadequate in others.

 

The second is where we allow "normal humans" to be in that scale. If the mean is 5 SPD, 23 - 26 DEX DEX, and we cap normal humans at SPD 4, 20 DEX, then I suggest we have precluded "normal humans" from being competitive in the game. If we set the mean at 3 SPD, 15 DEX OR we allow normal humans to achieve Mean +2 and Mean +12, then we make the Normal Human viable.

 

I have found that if you let people both have all the benefits of being human' date=' unrestricted interaction with the world, and free rein to play whatever they want that the humans disappear. Just like most fantasy groups, with maybe, grudgingly one unadulterated human (and they are usually some god's pet Paladin!) So I both play up the drawbacks of being non-human on Earth and ask my non-human players to have some complications related to their non-humanity. Being Kryptonian comes with a nasty allergy to an otherwise harmless rock.[/quote]

 

I find this depends on how you define "human" and how you set campaign parameters. If the campaign defines "human" as "cannot exceed NCM stats" or "must take NCM", and then sets the benchmarks such that human characters are uncompetitive, I expect they will be scarce or nonexistent. If it defines "human" as "lacking superpowers, but capable of very high DEX, SPD, CV, etc." it becomes more viable. I could play a "normal human" and bump all his characteristics with a limitation - Iron Man is a "normal human" whose armored suit bumps his physical stats at least to the level of other superhumans.

 

The most common archetype I saw NCM taken as a disadvantage for was mentalists. They had to abide by the 4 SPD restriction (but often had bonus speed only for mental powers - say 3 SPD, +3 SPD for mental powers), a DEX 18 or 20 was OK, and a 20 EGO was quite adequate to reliably target mental powers. If not, a couple of levels would do the trick. Normal human telepaths? Sure - the game easily allows it!

 

[This is without getting into absolutely any advantages or limitations on characteristics removing them from the ambit of NCM.]

 

But back to Speed. If you want' date=' and I allow, your Green Arrow homage to have a flat 8 SPD, how is a kid with a switchblade ever a threat? Do I give the kid some PCP or Venom and ratchet his SPD up to 9? Do I attack you with 64 kids with switchblades? Do I look at you incredulously when you complain that you don't get enough street-level adventures? Sorry, but you have made yourself too high-class for the street. If you insist and make your Batman homage with a flat 7 SPD then I have to make my Joker homage with a SPD like Spider-Man, and suddenly my Joker can run a 1 minute mile. "Sorry boys, I'm giving up crime to play wide receiver for the Raiders." [/quote']

 

I certainly agree this makes the switchblader no threat. So does 12/12 Combat Luck so he has the defenses to survive superpowered combat, or the CV that causes most Brick and Energy Projectors to be virtually unable to hit the character. Unless we ratchet everything down to the level a switchblade-wielding punk is a threat to all the Supers, he's a threat to none of them (or only to those whose tactical choices in superpowered combat are limited to "run and hide" or "bleed all over the enemy"). If the character is able to stand in superpowered combat, then his biggest challenge will be not reducing the punk to paste with a single attack, since the DC's the punk can take a few hits from are too low to be a threat to Super level defenses.

 

Practically, we need a whole pile of abilities that "only work in superpowered combat", or otherwise scaling abilities. This isn't limited to Bats and Cap. How else does Spider-Man struggle against the Kingpin one month, but was able to go toe to toe with the Hulk a few issues earlier? Daredevil can fight against Namor, but has trouble against the Owl? A villain has a weapon that can stun the Mighty Thor, but doesn't kill the other Avengers? Reletavistic power levels are a comics trope the game has difficulty matching.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Is Bat Man a good example of maximum “normal” characteristics?

 

Batman is a character who is prominent in the source material and is consistently described as lacking any form of superpowers. The game should be capable of handling such an iconic character, not telling players "Sorry, you have to start as the Fantastic Frog Man at 1st level and work your way up - maybe when you're 20th level you can be Batman!

 

Firstly which Bat Man are we talking about? Recent film incarnations? His 1939 one or one of his many comic book incarnations since?

 

As most RPG's are about Supers teams, the Batman who can credibly stand beside Aquaman, Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman as one of the Justice League's founders.

 

Also the speed 7 Bat Man some people want are probably talking about a very experienced Bat Man that is no longer a starting “normal human” with a lot of just escaping from traps and lots of training and poisoning etc which the GM allowed as a reason to up his Speed to 7 with a logical SFX on training and possible mutate?

 

If the player wants Batman, he wants a character who competes by drive, determination and training, not by mutation, superserums or any other superpowers.

 

If we are talking about comic book characters these are bad examples for starting point examples as most are decades old and the interpretation of their first outing as a “normal human” who just puts on his suit and fights crime gets lost in the hero worship etc. Different writers will interpret his characteristics slightly differently from comic to comic and are not limited by limits.

 

These are the icons of the genre. Would you suggest Conan, Elric, or the Fellowship of the Ring are "bad examples" of fantasy characters? I think they are precisely the kind of characters a new gamer has in mind.

 

Every hero has a super power that makes him different and why not a side effect to increase speed etc beyond the normal. Martial artist wants a speed of 6 and the max human is 4 and the GM allows it – SFX his martial arts teacher was a mystic and infused him with mystic energy or could teach him to be faster than your normal human etc.

 

Many superheroes in the comics have no superpowers. Why should the game be unable to accommodate such examples from the source material? If it cannot, I consider that a failure of the game to emulate the source material. Whether this is done by the CU approach (every Super, "normal human, highly trained" or not, can have DEX into the 30's and SPD of 6+) or by a different approach (Schtick must justify characteristics beyond basic human levels, and SPD 2-3, DEX 8 - 15 Supers are the norm, with highly trained normals able to achieve SPD 4 and DEX 18 - 20, and only Supers for whom superhuman reactions, speed and/or agility qualify to have a SPD of 5 or a DEX above 20, and are capped at, say DEX 5, with only the rarest SPD 6, and DEX 25, with only the most rare DEX 26 - 29 would be an example) is a different question. Both accommodate the "highly trained but nonpowered human".

 

Simply put, the source material indicates highly trained humans have superior DEX, SPD and CV to most Supers. Like Casualplayer says, the question isn't what DEX, SPD or CV that is - it is simply that they exceed the mean by a noticable, so significant, margin.

 

In some comics Bat Man may also have 15, 20, 25 or 30 Strength (backed up with martial arts) to strike down foes. The fact that he doesn’t bench press a proportionate amount does not mean he did not get an equivalent strength for decking a tough villain or breaking out from / restrain a strong villain (Strength +10 only for dice damage and grapples and not lifting strength, limitation-?).

 

I personally limited my non-speedster players to speed 5, and no one picked a speedster SFX.

 

We are having a break and when we restart I will be allowing 2 characters with speed 4 to increase to 5 with EXP and character rewrites (now that I understand limitations etc better) to make the game flow more smoothly. This will be explained away by the slower characters are now more experienced in combat and they have reached the speed of the other character. They are faster than normal humans (Speed 4) as they are heroes (and all are mutants or mutates).

 

The GM should bench mark the speed and the players should fit in with their SFX. Characters brought in blind should be changed up or down to fit the GM's idea of speed not the player.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Perhaps to you. The comics have never suggested that Cap's brain was affected' date=' to my recollection, and they have always classified his reflexes, agility and other abilities as "peak human", not "superhuman".[/quote']

 

Actually, Cap has claimed to "see faster" than normal, which is one of the things that allows him to doge bullets and such with greater ease.

 

How one interprets that statement is open to debate and probably not entirely relevant to the thread at hand...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

....

How one interprets that statement is open to debate and probably not entirely relevant to the thread at hand...

 

Aww come on... I wonder how long before the debate involves Spider-Man vs. Firelord.

 

I'll pre-emptively dive for cover now.

[Christopher]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

So always have one Thug along and we depower Bats.

No. I explicitly stated: Not the person behind the mook is relevant, but the sheet used for the mook. They all have the same weapon and training, so they are simply the same for game effects.

No matter if it is Generic Viper Agent #1, #12 or # 1042 - they are not considered different beings for this. Once you know how one generic Viper agent fights, you know how they all fight.

 

Perhaps to you. The comics have never suggested that Cap's brain was affected' date=' to my recollection, and they have always classified his reflexes, agility and other abilities as "peak human", not "superhuman". They have also left him competitive with Supers, being able to battle the Hulk, Hercules, and many other Bricks, being recognized as incredibly skilled and agile by most opponents. This implies those opponents do not have "peak human" levels of SPD or DEX, much less Superhuman.[/quote']

I am pretty sure that "got radiation in his face" was for Daredevil, so I was talking about him.

[Ice9]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I really don't think this a GM Fudge required situation since it's a non-combat example that you are describing. I don't see the problem with defining how long it would take a normal (2 SPD) person to do and let a speedster like Flash first divide that time by how much more SPD he has (if a 6 SPD' date=' divide by 3) then take that time and apply the -3 per step down the Speed Chart (It can only be reduced down to a Turn anyway).[/quote']Non-combat? I'm talking about doing it within one combat phase, and it may be something that has effects on combat (for instance, the computer commands de-activate the security around the villain's power generator, and locking the doors makes it harder for his henchmen to turn it back on). If the Time Chart only goes down to a Turn, that's far too slow. We're talking about something that - if it was punching people - the Flash could already do in a single phase, and conceptually, shouldn't take any longer.

 

...And then there is always the Enter The Speedzone ability introduced in Ultimate Speedster (5e).

But yes, that works. It's similar to more SPD in many ways though.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Aww come on... I wonder how long before the debate involves Spider-Man vs. Firelord.

 

I thought of, and deliberately ignored, that one as an outlier.

 

No. I explicitly stated: Not the person behind the mook is relevant, but the sheet used for the mook. They all have the same weapon and training, so they are simply the same for game effects.

 

No matter if it is Generic Viper Agent #1, #12 or # 1042 - they are not considered different beings for this. Once you know how one generic Viper agent fights, you know how they all fight.

 

My question stands - if Bats is facing off against a group of opponents, some of whom he is familiar with and some not, what is his SPD? If we assume he has SPD 4, 8 vs known opponents, can he use phases 3, 6, 9 and 12 as he sees fit (perhaps to engage the new opponents) and 2, 5, 8 and 11 to attack, or defend against, those foes he is familiar with? Can he Abort in 7 if attacked by an unknown foe? If he can, has he aborted phase 8 or 9? The cure seems worse than the disease.

 

He wants to close the distance between Unknown Enemy #27 and The Joker. Can he move on Phase 2 (being familiar with the Joker) or only on Phase 3 (being unfamiliar with the enemy standing beside the Joker)? What if he wants to throw an Explosive Batarang in ph 2 - can he target the space between them, or must he target the Joker since he's not familiar with how this new enemy fights?

 

Of course, it may not be a significant issue depending on how long he needs to become familiar with their style, but that comes back to "how significantly different is this to having a high speed".

 

I'd be interested in Casual Player's response, as the concept is his - we're likely deviating from it, possibly markedly. I suspect he has it defined much better to work more smoothly in game.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

So anyway' date=' I mentioned before that I use Normal Characteristic Maxima as a distinguishing feature in my games. It means that you have a likely range of capabilities, that you certainly can exceed but if someone witnesses you doing so is likely going to say "That thing's not human!" or "Unbelievable!" and will react accordingly. It also means that the average doctor who might be stumped entirely by your alien teammate's triple hearts will however be able to fix you up and have a good idea how you will react to most drugs. It also means that the power dampening technology that exists in my world fizzles entirely against you because you have no powers. Remember when the X-Men were trapped on Magneto's Island in X-Men #150 and think about how much even more badass Robin would have been if he would have been along for the ride. It's a feature and a flaw, a combination of Non-distinct Features, Physical Limitation and Prevalence, Social Limitation and Freedom. It's only for those who want to triumph over even greater odds than the other players because they are willingly forgoing the option of point build efficiency. It's not for everyone. Even among my players very few have opted for it: some superagents, some martial artists, some power armor guys.[/quote']'

 

I guess, for me at least, if I were forced to forego some major combat advantages based on my char concept, I'd want the benefits of doing so to be at least equal to the penalties. If we got into fights in every session where my lower-than-campaign-average SPD, CV, and DEX hindered me, I'd expect all the other PCs to be hindered roughly the same amount of the time.

 

But at the same time, "Sorry, AlienMan, you won't be able to participate in the next two fights because you're still laid up with injuries from the last battle, and there's not a doctor on this planet who knows how to stitch you up" doesn't seem very fair to the guy playing AlienMan.

 

Or "MutantGirl, you feel your powers fade as Professor Evil-O once again pulls out his patented Mutant Drain-O Cuffs." But that level of nerfing wouldn't be terribly fair to MutantGirl's player either.

 

Chances are in your campaign you've managed to figure out a way to balance this out -- giving NormalGuy challenges that only he can deal with, without nerfing everyone else. Or maybe your players just don't care. But it sounds like it would be a heck of a balancing act. If NormalGuy was less than effective in 4 out of 5 combats, I'd expect the other PCs to be equally hindered... but at the same time, I don't know if I'd be happy in a campaign where most of the time only some of the heroes were all that heroic. Unless, of course, superhero fights are vanishingly rare in that campaign. In which case, I'd be perfectly happy playing the guy with more points to spend on social or detective skills and perks.

[Christopher]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Non-combat? I'm talking about doing it within one combat phase' date=' and it may be something that has effects on combat (for instance, the computer commands de-activate the security around the villain's power generator, and locking the doors makes it harder for his henchmen to turn it back on).[/quote']

Where exactly are the limits here? Could he also disable the enemies power armor by simply dismantle it? His weapon?

 

Also keep in mind that trying to build every last thing a character did once in a single incarnation, is usually going to be a futile effort/not worth it. For Hero such things fall under using his Power Skill.

 

I guess, for me at least, if I were forced to forego some major combat advantages based on my char concept, I'd want the benefits of doing so to be at least equal to the penalties. If we got into fights in every session where my lower-than-campaign-average SPD, CV, and DEX hindered me, I'd expect all the other PCs to be hindered roughly the same amount of the time.

 

But at the same time, "Sorry, AlienMan, you won't be able to participate in the next two fights because you're still laid up with injuries from the last battle, and there's not a doctor on this planet who knows how to stitch you up" doesn't seem very fair to the guy playing AlienMan.

 

Or "MutantGirl, you feel your powers fade as Professor Evil-O once again pulls out his patented Mutant Drain-O Cuffs." But that level of nerfing wouldn't be terribly fair to MutantGirl's player either.

I think you are mixing "you are 1/4 less powerfull" up with "you are unable to participate in any fight". Yes it is an penalty, but not an "you can't do anything" penalty.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I think you are mixing "you are 1/4 less powerfull" up with "you are unable to participate in any fight". Yes it is an penalty' date=' but not an "you can't do anything" penalty.[/quote']

 

1/4 less powerful, in Hero at least, should generally mean 1/4 more character points to spend on other stuff. Does NormalGuy have a -1/4 limitation on all his stuff, or is he just more expensive/less effective, relative to the other PCs? If I deliberately build my character to be less combat effective than everyone else, it's because I have an expectation that my shortcomings will be made up elsewhere. If my character is forced to be less combat effective than everyone else due to the way the game world works, I still have an expectation that my shortcomings will be made up elsewhere.

 

"Elsewhere" could mean nerfing the other PCs as frequently as my character is nerfed, or it could mean a greater number of chances for me to shine in non-combat situations (although in that case, non-combat situations should, IMHO, come up at least as often and be as plot-crucial as combat situations).

 

I'm not trying to harsh on CasualPlayer's campaign. I'm just not sure how it would work out. It sounds like most people don't want to play NormalGuy in his campaigns, and I'm guessing that's because the shortcomings of doing so aren't balanced by the advantages. Which is fine. If everyone's having fun, game on.

[casualplayer]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

My question stands - if Bats is facing off against a group of opponents, some of whom he is familiar with and some not, what is his SPD? If we assume he has SPD 4, 8 vs known opponents, can he use phases 3, 6, 9 and 12 as he sees fit (perhaps to engage the new opponents) and 2, 5, 8 and 11 to attack, or defend against, those foes he is familiar with? Can he Abort in 7 if attacked by an unknown foe? If he can, has he aborted phase 8 or 9? The cure seems worse than the disease.

 

He wants to close the distance between Unknown Enemy #27 and The Joker. Can he move on Phase 2 (being familiar with the Joker) or only on Phase 3 (being unfamiliar with the enemy standing beside the Joker)? What if he wants to throw an Explosive Batarang in ph 2 - can he target the space between them, or must he target the Joker since he's not familiar with how this new enemy fights?

 

Of course, it may not be a significant issue depending on how long he needs to become familiar with their style, but that comes back to "how significantly different is this to having a high speed".

 

I'd be interested in Casual Player's response, as the concept is his - we're likely deviating from it, possibly markedly. I suspect he has it defined much better to work more smoothly in game.

 

It ain't that tricky, Hugh. You even mentioned the idea of mentalists buying SPD Only for using Mental Powers. Works the same way; SPD Only versus Studied Opponents is only usable against studied opponents, and segments in common can be used for either generic actions or versus studied opponents. Just like every other conditional SPD build. I guess if you made it SPD versus studied terrain as well then movement on the additional phases would make sense. A 4 or 5 SPD boosted to 8 works smoothest because there's complete or nearly so overlap in segments.

 

I use conditional SPD a lot. Pilots and drivers that have conditional SPD when behind the wheel, fliers that have conditional SPD for acceleration and turning, power armor guys who are norms outside the suit but have faster reactions while wearing it, gunfighters quick on the draw but not so quick on their feet. Heck, most of the real people I know have conditional SPD only for playing video games. It's not as simple as just topping off the tank but I like the nuance and feel of it.

 

I don't really want to talk about NCM anymore because it's turning the SPD thread into casualplayer's house rules thread. It does make for a balancing act to make sure it doesn't nerf or advantage the character unjustly, but I've found so does everything else. It's part of the joy of GMing.

[Martin2]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

These are the icons of the genre. Would you suggest Conan, Elric, or the Fellowship of the Ring are "bad examples" of fantasy characters? I think they are precisely the kind of characters a new gamer has in mind.

 

The point I was trying to get across is Batman / Captain America / Dare Devil are Icons on the "perfect" human with "no" super powers.

 

But they can do a shed load of things that super powered individuals can do (and also the stunt doubles in the films require wire work and camera tricks / CGI to reach the level expected and to stop injury).

 

It all Hero games specific.

 

Batman 1 clone in Campaign 1 will have speed 4 because the player / GM thinks that is the maximum human possible and so depicts the Batman they love.

 

Batman 2 clone in Campaign 2 will have speed 7 because the player / GM thinks that is the maximum in relation to the Batman they love (but infact the maximum for humans with no super powers is well below 7 in this campaign).

 

Batman 1 player hates Batman 2 player as they do not have the Batman they love .

 

These characters are loved by lots of people and they will all have different ideas of "normal" characteristics in relation to how they see there favorite character.

 

Some want low speed and some want high speed to bring in what they think is what they want "Batman" / "Conan" / "Elric" / "Frodo" clone to be.

 

That is why these are "bad" examples as the end point for "human maximum" is clouded by a lot of love for their character and no definate bench mark for the human maximum.

 

If we got a poll of 10 Champions games that have a Batman clone and if you take Batmans Speed and the actual human "maximum" speed from the GM I think you may get a good proportion as being a lot higher than the human maximum.

 

Some people do not count Batman as having the speed of the maximum possible without super powers and some do. It is all campaign specific.

 

As we know by this long discusion on speed .

 

 

I am a scientist. You can not quote a value of a result without the method in which it is measured.

 

Eg. The Speed of sound is not the same going through a gas and a solid.

 

So if you use one value in one experiment it can give you the wrong result in another.

 

Batmans Speed does not equal maximum human potential in all Hero Campaigns.