Planting Mines and Bombs

[screamingtongue]

All right, I'm working on some NPCs for a campaign I hope to get going soon. These NPCs are bombers. They throw grenades, plant mines, and yes, even bomb (or attempt to bomb) buildings with high-tech explosives.

 

I'm not sure I need to, but I want to try to work out the mechanics of the mines and bombs so I can record exactly what they do, and how much they're worth in character points. The general idea of the mines is that they will be a somewhat low-powered explosive blast or killing attack, depending on the kind of mine used. The NPC needs to take a bit of time to set them, probably as a full phase action. These are meant as traps for the PCs, and not as a means of destroying buildings. They can be detonated remotely or by proximity.

 

I'm not sure how to build this. Obviously I need foci, probably obvious and inaccessible. Also charges to represent the number of mines carried. Assuming that the guerrilla force these NPCs belong to would be well-stocked, I probably don't need to make it so the charges "never recover," any more than I would need to do that for bullets. A multiple trigger advantage, one based on proximity/motion and one based on a radio signal would cover the two ways the mines can go off. Obviously, the explosive area of effect advantage is needed to disperse the damage. A demolitions skill roll would also represent the difficulty of planting such a mine. Would that cover it completely? Would that grant my NPCs the ability to plant these mines, and use the concealment skill to hide them as traps for PCs? Would this still count as an attack with an attack roll, or does placing the trigger make that obsolete?

 

More difficult is the issue of bombs meant for the destruction of buildings. A more powerful blast would be necessary, either with a standard AoE or another explosive one. These bombs would be bulky foci, and have only one charge. I want them to run on a timer set for a decent amount of time, probably 20 minutes. I think I can do this with the Extra Time limitation. Can I use the limitation twice, the second time to indicate that the bomb takes a long time to set? I'm thinking one minute or five minutes. As with the mines, I need to know whether or not planting something like this would require an attack roll. Also, should I take concentration and gestures limitations to indicate that for the time the character is planting the bomb, their hands and minds are busy focusing on only that task? Clearly, a demolitions roll is also necessary for this power.

 

I think that's all my questions. With the complexity of the bomb, though, I'm thinking that maybe it would be best to just skip it, since this isn't a piece of equipment that the PCs are going to be using (probably), just trying to diffuse or prevent somebody from setting. I do want to work out the mines, though, as they seem like something that it would just be good to be able to make and know exactly how they work.

 

Sorry for the long post, and thanks in advance for all the help.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

How would tamping work?

[Greywind]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

How does one go about planting mimes? And do you hear them when they go off?

[Christopher]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

Generally you ahve the right idea with Trigger, Focus and Charges.

Yes, Concealment allows them to hide the mines, but since the attack and the Focus are obvious they suffer the usual -1 per 10 AP penalty for "hidden power use" (6E1 125; but the environment can make Visual detection difficulty).

 

No, you can't use Extra Time twice, you simply use a trigger (set amount of time) and set it to 20 Minutes. Extra Time wouldn't allow the attack to still work, when the one setting it has gone K.O. (at any point between settign and the real activation). Trigger should allow this.

 

No, planting the mines (setting the triger) does not require an attack roll. With area of effect, afaik no attack roll is nessesary at any point.

 

Yes, Concentration, Extra Time, Gestures and Reuqires a Demolitions Roll (mind the AP penalty here) are a good idea. You could perhaps leave out the extra time and just asume they take their time to set the mine/bomb to not botch the Demolitions Roll.

Also, Side effects is an option (if you want them to blow themself up if they fail the Demolitiosn Roll).

[screamingtongue]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

For the purpose of explosives which destroy buildings, how do I know how much damage they need to do, and how large an area they need to cover? Do I need to do enough damage to take out all the outer walls of the ground floor (or at least enough to collapse the building), or should I figure a standard BODY and PD/ED for buildings and base the explosive devices on that?

[Christopher]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

For the purpose of explosives which destroy buildings' date=' how do I know how much damage they need to do, and how large an area they need to cover? Do I need to do enough damage to take out all the outer walls of the ground floor (or at least enough to collapse the building), or should I figure a standard BODY and PD/ED for buildings and base the explosive devices on that?[/quote']

Most buildings today (epsecially Skyscrapers) can loose their entire walls, ceilings and floors without falling. You need to destroy the few supporting beams/pilars. Knowing where to find them could be either demolitions and/or PS: Architecture (I would allow architecture as complimetnary).

The closest values we have, are on 6E2 171. No specific values for supporting parts, but I would at least put it a "Reinforced Concrete Wall".

[Lucius]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

Generally you ahve the right idea with Trigger, Focus and Charges.

Yes, Concealment allows them to hide the mines, but since the attack and the Focus are obvious they suffer the usual -1 per 10 AP penalty for "hidden power use" (6E1 125; but the environment can make Visual detection difficulty.

 

The Focus could be made Inobvious. And I don't think "Hidden Power use" applies. No one is actually trying to conceal the explosion when it occurs, and that is when the Power is "in use." A Trigger is normally visible with a Perception roll, but the rules for Trigger say nothing about bonuses or penalties related to Active Points.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Carrying a concealed palindromedary

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

Most buildings today (epsecially Skyscrapers) can loose their entire walls, ceilings and floors without falling. You need to destroy the few supporting beams/pilars. Knowing where to find them could be either demolitions and/or PS: Architecture (I would allow architecture as complimetnary).

The closest values we have, are on 6E2 171. No specific values for supporting parts, but I would at least put it a "Reinforced Concrete Wall".

 

Yeah, figure most skyscrapers load-bearing structures will be DEF 10, with a good amount of BODY - 20 to 30 or so, and doing 5 points of BODY is going to blow a "man-sized hole" through that wall / structure. I forget where this is outlined to be honest...

[Christopher]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

A Trigger is normally visible with a Perception roll' date=' but the rules for Trigger say nothing about bonuses or penalties related to Active Points.[/quote']

It's the best figure we have. It clearly differnetiates between a mine and atom bomb in mater of hiding ability.

 

Yeah' date=' figure most skyscrapers load-bearing structures will be DEF 10, with a good amount of BODY - 20 to 30 or so, and doing 5 points of BODY is going to blow a "man-sized hole" through that wall / structure. I forget where this is outlined to be honest...[/quote']

Doing exalty the beams Body will blow a man sized hole (and propably make the beam fail it's supportign job). Doing more body means a bigger hole (+1 man size per extra body).

[Lucius]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

It's the best figure we have. It clearly differnetiates between a mine and atom bomb in mater of hiding ability.

 

There is no reason to differentiate between a mine and an atom bomb in the matter of hiding ability.

 

There is a need to differentiate between a mine and an atom bomb in the matter of destructive ability.

 

In terms of concealment, there is a need to differentiate based on such matters as size, energy emitted (a ticking time bomb can be tracked by sound, a poorly shielded atom bomb by a geiger counter, etc) density (matters to radar and x ray) etc.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Concealing a carried palindromedary

[screamingtongue]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

So what I'm getting is that I need to focus more on explosives that deal high damage than a wide area. The NPCs will plant these on key support pillars rather than planting them on, say, the entire perimeter of the bottom of the building. So should I adjust the rules for explosive Area of Effect to scale it down, concentrating the blast?

 

Also, should this be a killing attack or a blast? I'm thinking probably a blast with armor piercing, but even then, based on the beam stats given in this thread, it'd have to be at least a 25d6 just to reach the lower limit and destroy a 10 PD, 20 BODY beam, and even this wouldn't be a sure thing if more 1s were rolled than 6s.

 

The problem is that the active points for this attack will become so inflated that the NPCs will almost always fail while planting it. The construct above gives it a bare minimum of (25d6 * 5 = 125, * [1 + 1/4 + 1/4] = 187) 187 Active Points, which, at the standard penalties for a power which requires a skill roll, imposes a -18 modifier on the roll, rendering it impossible without absurdly increasing the skill for the character. It could be half that for a lesser limitation, but that would still be a -9 modifier, which would make it nearly impossible to ever plant one of these bombs without blowing yourself up. This construct only includes a minimal cost for Area of Effect, as well as the armor piercing advantage. It completely ignores other advantages like Trigger, and potentially charges, which would rocket the AP cost even higher, making it even more difficult to set the charges.

 

I guess I could potentially buy the skill as a focus as well, buy the skill roll up to a really high positive modifier, and limit it to use only with these bombs, to represent that the bombs have been designed to be easier to use, or that the characters have a detailed instruction guide with them. I don't see how to build this bomb and make it usable by anyone other than someone who's got something like a 30- skill roll.

[Greywind]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

Keep in mind that a trained demolitionist will also get bonuses for architectural engineering as a skill. It helps to know where to place the charges in the structure. Such skill interactions can get you bonuses to the blast strength (with a good GM) or even advantages to the blast without requiring an ungodly large charge. Also to play quick and dirty, you could just use standard effect for the blast.

 

When a building is blown, the main load bearing members are targeted. Usually on the lower floors or in the basement. It isn't one massive blast that will bring it down, but a series of smaller, well-placed charges.

[Christopher]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

Also' date=' should this be a killing attack or a blast?[/quote']

It's inanimate, so Killing Attack is the answer. Blasts are only good at dealing Stun and at NOT dealing Body.

 

When your target is a focus, barrier/wall or automaton (wich takes no STUN) the answer is always KA, preferibly Armor Piercing or even Penetrating (against Foci).

[Lucius]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

So what I'm getting is that I need to focus more on explosives that deal high damage than a wide area. The NPCs will plant these on key support pillars rather than planting them on, say, the entire perimeter of the bottom of the building. So should I adjust the rules for explosive Area of Effect to scale it down, concentrating the blast?

 

Also, should this be a killing attack or a blast? I'm thinking probably a blast with armor piercing, but even then, based on the beam stats given in this thread, it'd have to be at least a 25d6 just to reach the lower limit and destroy a 10 PD, 20 BODY beam, and even this wouldn't be a sure thing if more 1s were rolled than 6s.

 

The problem is that the active points for this attack will become so inflated that the NPCs will almost always fail while planting it. The construct above gives it a bare minimum of (25d6 * 5 = 125, * [1 + 1/4 + 1/4] = 187) 187 Active Points, which, at the standard penalties for a power which requires a skill roll, imposes a -18 modifier on the roll, rendering it impossible without absurdly increasing the skill for the character. It could be half that for a lesser limitation, but that would still be a -9 modifier, which would make it nearly impossible to ever plant one of these bombs without blowing yourself up. This construct only includes a minimal cost for Area of Effect, as well as the armor piercing advantage. It completely ignores other advantages like Trigger, and potentially charges, which would rocket the AP cost even higher, making it even more difficult to set the charges.

 

I guess I could potentially buy the skill as a focus as well, buy the skill roll up to a really high positive modifier, and limit it to use only with these bombs, to represent that the bombs have been designed to be easier to use, or that the characters have a detailed instruction guide with them. I don't see how to build this bomb and make it usable by anyone other than someone who's got something like a 30- skill roll.

 

Well, I have two observations to make.

 

The first is that no rule says you MUST build the bomb with Requires a Skill Roll.

 

The second is that this is one area where the Current Dispensation actually took choice away. In 5th edition, I recall an option to take a Required Skill Roll that was NOT penalized by Active Points. As you noticed, the current rules are often ridiculous and unworkable.

 

If it bothers you to built a bomb without the required Demolitions roll, you have a couple of options. One is to take the Trigger Advantage with "Misfire" option and say they need to make a Demolitions roll (no penalty) to avoid the misfire. Another is to use an Activation Roll (funny how you can do that and NOT face the Active Point penalty and leave it to luck, but if you use an actual SKILL your character actually paid points for you get a crippling penalty) and allow Demolitions to be a complementary roll to that. Or you can just house rule the Active Point penalty away and ignore it.

 

You can also look at the Hit Location rules and think about how they apply to structures. I'd say it's reasonable to say that making a Demolitions roll, if you have time to analyze the structure and freedom to choose exactly where to place the charge, is like succeeding in a called shot to the "vitals" of the building and justifies doubling the damage, for purposes of bringing it down.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Letting a palindromedary gnaw away at the foundation

[Christopher]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

The second is that this is one area where the Current Dispensation actually took choice away. In 5th edition' date=' I recall an option to take a Required Skill Roll that was NOT penalized by Active Points. As you noticed, the current rules are often ridiculous and unworkable.[/quote']

There is the option to reduce the penalty to -1/20 AP, but that reduces the limtiation value (by 1/4).

 

Another is to use an Activation Roll (funny how you can do that and NOT face the Active Point penalty and leave it to luck' date=' but if you use an actual SKILL your character actually paid points for you get a crippling penalty) and allow Demolitions to be a complementary roll to that. Or you can just house rule the Active Point penalty away and ignore it.[/quote']

No, not in the Rules. Only a Skill Roll can get Bonuses for Complimentary Rolls/taking more time - anything that can affect a normal skill roll, can affect a "required Skill Roll". 11- flat is 11- flat, with nothing affecting it (even OSL a are GM descision thing).

 

Keep in mind that "Requires Skill Roll" mostly make sense in low powered games (low superhuman or heroic), where AP are low and AP derived penalties are accordingly low.

When your AP are high, it also means that you save a lot of point on the Limtiation and should have to pay for a high enough Skill Roll.

[Lucius]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

Here's one way to do it.

 

Bomb: (Total: 150 Active Cost, 17 Real Cost)

Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6-1, Area Of Effect (16m Radius Explosion; +1/4), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset, Misfire, Three or more activation conditions apply simultaneously; +1/2), Damage Over Time, Target's defenses only apply once (3 damage increments, damage occurs every Minute, +1 1/2) (81 Active Points); 1 Charge which Recovers every 1 Week (-2 1/2), Extra Time (20 Minutes, Assemble, transport, place carefully, etc; -2 1/2), IIF Bulky Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1), No Range (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) (Real Cost: 10)

plus

Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6-1 (standard effect: 4 BODY), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Force field, alien or difficult to analyze structure, perhaps others; All Or Nothing; +0), Area Of Effect (16m Radius Explosion; +1/4), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset, Misfire, Three or more activation conditions apply simultaneously; +1/2), Does BODY (+1) (69 Active Points); 1 Charge which Recovers every 1 Week (-2 1/2), Extra Time (20 Minutes, Assemble, transport, place carefully, etc; -2 1/2), IIF Bulky Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1), Limited Power Only vs structure (-1), No Range (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Requires A Roll (Skill roll, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; -1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 7)

 

This power represents access to explosives and bomb making materiels and, combined with Demolitions Skill, the ability to use them. Gathering resources and constructing one bomb takes about a week. Placing the explosives requires 20 min. (assuming one person) and a Demolitions roll to avoid a misfire. A badly failed roll means the bomber is caught in the blast with minimal damage to the building; a failed roll would be either the exposives fail to explode (perhaps requiring someone to re-enter and take the risks involved in re-setting them when it becomes obvious they didn't work) or perhaps they do damage the building but catch the bomber as well. A Demolitions roll made by 3 pts means that when the blast goes off, it takes an automatic 4 BOD from parts of the structure within 4 meters of ground zero, 3 BOD out to 8 meters, etc. that bypasses defense (unless there is a reason the building is especially resistant) but that only applies to structural damage. Simultaneously, a Killing Explosion at 2d6-1 hits the area, including characters. Then the building continues to collapse, taking damage over time and doing damage to anyone remaining inside. The bulding's defenses only count once (the first blast weakens the structure) so if it has DEF 10 and the first damage does 6 pts and the second 5 pts, it has taken 1 pt of BOD damage (not counting the 4 done automatically if the Demolitions roll succeeds by 3.) Characters DO get to apply defenses each time and should have ways to avoid it entirely (Acrobatics or Breakfall rolls, Danger Sense, etc) Obviously, a bomb in an open field leaves a crater and does no further damage. Ways to prevent the ongoing structural damage include: A strong or telekinetic character holding up the roof until someone can prop it up, a fast character getting beams and props in place quickly, a force wall used to reinforce a load bearing wall, etc. The subsequent damage rolls are randomized: Roll 3d6 on this table for the second increment.

 

3-5: Roll again twice, apply both unless they are the same.

6: Whenever it will be most inconvenient for the player characters.

7: Bomber makes another Demolitions roll; if succeeds, use result 6, otherwise, use result 8.

8: 3d6 Segments after first

9: 2d6 Turns after first

10-12: 1d6 Minutes after first

13: 2d6 Minutes after first

14: 5 Minutes after first

15: If any player has Luck, Danger Sense, or precognitive or probability manipulation powers, and makes the assciated roll if any, allow them to choose a time; no more than 3 minutes after first.

16-18: Fails to happen at all

 

After the second damage increment happens (or fails to happen) roll again for the third.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Required Skill Roll: Palindromedary Riding

[Lucius]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

When your AP are high, it also means that you save a lot of point on the Limtiation and should have to pay for a high enough Skill Roll.

 

I know I create a lot of complex builds, but it seems needlessly complicated to me to in essence require a power to be a compound power like so:

 

High Active Point Power: (Total: 120 Active Cost, 35 Real Cost)

Interesting, not unbalanced, but expensive power, Advantages that define the power and make it unique and special (+1) (100 Active Points); Limitations that define the power to make it precisely what is wanted and restrict it to keep it from being unbalancing (-2), Requires A Roll (Skill roll; -1/2) (Real Cost: 28)

plus

+10 Power Skill (20 Active Points); Limited Power Only with this particular Power, so as to allow a reasonable chance to ever use it as opposed to it being a useless point sink because the required roll is practically impossible (-2) (Real Cost: 7)

 

Especially if one can spend 2 points LESS for a more reliable power

 

High Active Point Power: (Total: 100 Active Cost, 33 Real Cost) Interesting, not unbalanced, but expensive power, Advantages that define the power and make it unique and special (+1) (100 Active Points); Limitations that define the power to make it precisely what is wanted and restrict it to keep it from being unbalancing (-2) (Real Cost: 33)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Appropriately complex palindromedary tagline

[Christopher]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

Frankly I fail to see why your build uses Area of Effect and NND. We already found out that you don't try to engulf the entire building in an explosion. You hit the few supporting parts with a few well palced explosives.

And buying the damage of the buildign collapsing on an enemy is even over the top for superhuman games "you only get what you pay for". If you start getting that extreme, everyone would have to buy the damage an enemy takes after falling

 

KISS approach:

4d6 KA (vs PD), Trigger (+1/4), 75 AP

That amout of explosive power reliably puts a man sized hole in a Reinforced Concrete Wall (8 PD, 6 Body = 14Damage needed). Asuming the default wall is 32 cm thick, even if we scale the wall up to 2m thickness, it only triples it's body (it's more aruond doubling).

So simply using three or four of those explosives will still get a 2m thick reinforced concrete support pilar down 99% of the time. No pilar -> no building.

 

I also noticed that APG I 184 has rules for collapsing buildings ([3d6]d6 Normal Damage plus likely being trapped).

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

The second is that this is one area where the Current Dispensation actually took choice away. In 5th edition' date=' I recall an option to take a Required Skill Roll that was NOT penalized by Active Points.[/quote']

 

That option in 5e reduced the value of RSR by 1/2, effectively making it a -0 Limitation (unless other options boosted it). The 6e method is to buy the power with an Activation Roll equal to the character's skill roll. (I also recall powers in Ninja Hero using that method, but that may have been for 4e.)

[Lucius]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

Frankly I fail to see why your build uses Area of Effect and NND. We already found out that you don't try to engulf the entire building in an explosion. You hit the few supporting parts with a few well palced explosives.

And buying the damage of the buildign collapsing on an enemy is even over the top for superhuman games "you only get what you pay for". If you start getting that extreme, everyone would have to buy the damage an enemy takes after falling

 

KISS approach:

4d6 KA (vs PD), Trigger (+1/4), 75 AP

That amout of explosive power reliably puts a man sized hole in a Reinforced Concrete Wall (8 PD, 6 Body = 14Damage needed). Asuming the default wall is 32 cm thick, even if we scale the wall up to 2m thickness, it only triples it's body (it's more aruond doubling).

So simply using three or four of those explosives will still get a 2m thick reinforced concrete support pilar down 99% of the time. No pilar -> no building.

 

I also noticed that APG I 184 has rules for collapsing buildings ([3d6]d6 Normal Damage plus likely being trapped).

 

Hm. Maybe you have a point there.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary reminds me that I don't require someone with Demolitions to actually buy "Dispel Explosives" to disarm a bomb

[Christopher]

Re: Planting Mines and Bombs

 

That option in 5e reduced the value of RSR by 1/2' date=' effectively making it a -0 Limitation (unless other options boosted it). The 6e method is to buy the power with an Activation Roll equal to the character's skill roll. (I also recall powers in [i']Ninja Hero[/i] using that method, but that may have been for 4e.)

One big problem with negating the the AP penalty might be that the character could end up with a 15- roll, wich is 95% rate of success, hardly worth any Limitation.

 

The table suggest that an overall roll "once per use" of 13- (83% CoS) or better is worth nothing, as is a roll of 15- (95% CoS) made "once per Phase" of a continous power.

And in superhuman levels, we often find skills on that level and few other modifiers might apply.