Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I believe the genre books are their best non-Champions sellers. For example, they noted that (for 5E) Star Hero far outsold any of the Star Hero supplements, Pulp Hero far outsold any of the Pulp Hero supplements, etc. Precisely how they compare to the sales of Champions supplements, I'm not sure (except that Champions itself was the highest-selling Supers supplement).

 

The trouble with this argument is that you'd be hoping to attract new customers to the detriment of your existing customers. Yes, it would give non-Hero System gamers a way to buy genre books that didn't necessitate buying a second book. But it would also mean that Hero System gamers were essentially "buying a second book" (or more precisely, part of a book that they already owned) over and over and over again.

 

I feel absolutely sure that if they did this, you would hear plenty of howling from Hero System players complaining about buying the rules over again just to get a genre book.

 

Now, that doesn't automatically mean it's a bad idea. I think it just means you have to be thoughtful about which books get that treatment and how. In a perfect world, it would be nice if both "stand-alone" and "supplement-style" versions of each genre book could be made available, so buyers could choose the one appropriate for them. But I'd suspect that might not be economically feasible...

 

The "buy the same rules over and over again" issue is a significant one, in my view, especially when the rules are of a significant size (and even the Basic Rules are a big volume). "Standalone" might be a boxed set for Supers gamers with the Champions Sidekick and Basic Rules included. It seems like the larger game companies are producing the "intro game in a box" model again.

 

Okay' date=' sure, if you like. My point wasn't about how the business deal should go. It was a point about the potential for success for licensed systems.[/quote']

[phoenix240]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Returning to an approach more similar to 4th edition would hardly be "gutting" the system.

 

And I didn't say it was. Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm not looking for another edition war. Unless you're advocating some of the things I mentioned in my post or some other radical "simplification" then we really have nothing to argue about.

[The Main Man]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I agree that HERO's problems more likely than not stem from the crappy economy, but if it's going to survive solutions need to be considered based on the situation at hand. I know that our solution ideas are all unsolicited, but I think we are all discussing such so that the powers-that-be figure out something and get us more of the game we all love.

 

Now, what if genre books came with the Basic HERO rules weaved into them? Perhaps the rules could furthermore be modified to more specifically emulate the genre at hand?

[Vondy]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

And I didn't say it was. Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm not looking for another edition war. Unless you're advocating some of the things I mentioned in my post or some other radical "simplification" then we really have nothing to argue about.

 

You're the one who responded to my comments about granularity and implementation differences between 4th and 6th edition with an utterly irrelevant list of radical suggestions I never referred to.

 

That you don't want to have an "edition war" doesn't preclude my advocating the approach of a previous edition with some good ideas from 5th and 6th back-ported into it.

[phoenix240]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

You're the one who responded to my comments about granularity and implementation differences between 4th and 6th edition with an utterly irrelevant list of radical suggestions I never referred to.

 

When did I respond to any of your comments and implementation and granularity? My original post was referring to my aversion to the radical suggestions given in others threads (often by those outside the "community") for drastic alterations to Hero System in what I feel would be a doomed effort to court a market that is already being seen too. The only time I have quoted you was to try to explain what appeared to be a misunderstanding since you claimed I made some sort of assertion that I did not.

 

My point/mini rant in the post you first responded was about the chorus of voices (usually from outside the HS "community" that call for much more radical simplification than rolling back an Edition or two. These people have been calling Hero too complicated for years. That's fine, its not for them but I'd hate to see panic or desperation cause the implementation of drastic changes in name of "simplification". Most/All of them would wreck the game for me and HS is one of the "crunchy" games left that I enjoy playing. And there are plenty of rules light options (including Mutants and Masterminds) so its not like its wide open market waiting to be exploited.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Now' date=' what if genre books came with the Basic HERO rules weaved into them?[/quote']This "punishes" your core customers for already owning the rulebooks. I think we need to find ways to make Hero System products more appealing to new players, that don't also make them less appealing to existing players.

Perhaps the rules could furthermore be modified to more specifically emulate the genre at hand?

If the rules are going to change from genre to genre (not just different option settings, but actual changes), then why play the Hero System (or any other universal system) at all? Being able to stick with one rules engine is an enormous part of the appeal of a universal RPG...

[The Main Man]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

This "punishes" your core customers for already owning the rulebooks. I think we need to find ways to make Hero System products more appealing to new players, that don't also make them less appealing to existing players.

If the rules are going to change from genre to genre (not just different option settings, but actual changes), then why play the Hero System (or any other universal system) at all? Being able to stick with one rules engine is an enormous part of the appeal of a universal RPG...

I think I need to rephrase that. When you read genre books, they put the rules in a certain context. For example, STR is more important in Fantasy than it usually is in Sci-Fi. I didn't mean that the rules literally change from genre book to genre book; just that the core text of the basic rules is sharpened for genre context.

 

As for your first counterpoint, how would it punish core players? I said they would have the basic rules, as opposed to the complete rules. I suppose it could be argued that that means that players who buy the core rulebooks are getting some condensed, reprinted text, but I'm looking at it as a means to make genre books stand alone with the implication that a pair of books greatly expand upon the material presented within

[phoenix240]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

 

As for your first counterpoint, how would it punish core players? I said they woyls have the basic rules, as opposed to the complete rules. I suppose it could be argued that that means that players who buy the core rulebooks are getting a but if condensed, reprinted text, but I'm looking at it as a means to make genre book s stand alone with the implication that a pair of books greatly expand upon the material presented within

 

I think he's referring to the idea that printing the rules in each genre book would require page count that would either reduce content or bump up the price. For instance, if I wanted have the corebook I might resent having to pay for the base rules "again" to get the Fantasy or Cyberpunk genre books. I can see his point. It was a complaint directed at the old World of Darkness books too.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

As for your first counterpoint' date=' how would it punish core players? I said they woyls have the basic rules, as opposed to the complete rules.[/quote']Even the basic rules are over 100 pages long. If you include them in a genre book, you're either making the book 100+ pages longer than it would otherwise have been (making it cost more), or you're providing 100+ pages less genre material in order to make room for the rules (giving the player who already owns the rules less for his or her money).

[The Main Man]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I understand your concern to a degree, but do you feel cheated for buying HERO System Equipment only to find a chunk of weapons reprinted in Fantasy HERO and HERO System Martial Arts? What about Lucha Libre HERO?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I understand your concern to a degree' date=' but do you feel cheated for buying HERO System Equipment only to find a chunk of weapons reprinted in Fantasy HERO and HERO System Martial Arts? What about Lucha Libre HERO?[/quote']Equipment builds are different, IMO, because they vary from genre to genre, and including them in a given genre book, etc. (even if they've been elsewhere too) is a matter of convenience. And yes, for me, Lucha Libre Hero would have been a better value if the rules were not included. It didn't bother me that they were, because I understand the reasoning behind it in that case (and in the case of PS238). But as an existing player, both books had less value for me than they would have if either the book was the same length, but with the rules removed and more genre material added, or the book was shorter and with a lower price point.

 

EDIT: And I should add, I'm not (just) being crotchety old Hero player, either. Because remember, this effect would happen to "new" players too, after their first book. Once they've bought, say, Fantasy Hero (and gotten the basic rules along with it), now any other genre book they buy, they're re-buying the basic rules too...

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

If I were going to suggest a product, it would probably be the complete rules in a 4E sized volume. Say, 256 pages. All of the Powers, Skills, Advantages, Limitations, etc. Cut way back on the commentary; that can go into a free downloadable doc, or a separate saleable product. Maybe put out a free "how to play" document like I mentioned elsewhere (Narf's document built up to 16 pages, let's say) that doesn't really give you the rules.

 

Part of me wants to say, just make the core rules OGL; Paizo could tell you how well that's working out. (Pathfinder seems to be neck and neck with D&D 4E for biggest seller in RPGs.) People who want to take a look can do so, with no obligation. You attract audience, and people do buy the books. (I have another suggestion that's only slightly more radical than that: give away the Basic Rules PDF to anyone who gives you their name and address and marketing info; tell them they're honor bound to delete the PDF if they don't like it, or buy the books from their FLGS or direct from Hero if they do.)

[djkester]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

A friend of mine and I had an interesting conversation yesterday about the entry point for gamers. The discussion was around Path Finder but I think it applies here as well. I think that whom ever can solve the entry point problem can make it work. There is certainly enough stuff already developed by DOJ to provide a valuable up sell. In our discussion we were simply talking about money but I think equally you have to consider the time you have to invest before game play begins.

 

I think that the problem that people have been talking about is not the, make 5 games that have all of the rules but make one that new players can get into. So I hope that if the new open license of HS appears then someone will be able to put forth a starter game in a genre they love. The possibilities are at least an intriguing discussion.

[JmOz]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Well I know it won't happen now, but I always liked my 2 book basic idea. Basically it was a line of Genre supplements meant to be used with the basic book, that would be about the same size. So Champions Basic would include a small description of super heroes and genre conventions, a new setting (half the 96 page book), some sample powers, a group of sample heroes, and about 3 times the number of villains, and a small adventure (3-4 page long), and a page of adventure seeds. With it and the basic book you would be ready to start. Put one out for each genre, and make sure you advertise the big books in it.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Well I know it won't happen now' date=' but I always liked my 2 book basic idea. Basically it was a line of Genre supplements meant to be used with the basic book, that would be about the same size. So Champions Basic would include a small description of super heroes and genre conventions, a new setting (half the 96 page book), some sample powers, a group of sample heroes, and about 3 times the number of villains, and a small adventure (3-4 page long), and a page of adventure seeds. With it and the basic book you would be ready to start. Put one out for each genre, and make sure you advertise the big books in it.[/quote']

 

I kind of like this idea. A basic setting could focus on a city or town, and go over the surrounding area with some detail, and paint the region/world in broad strokes. Aside from giving a starting point for entry-level gamers, it could also be useful to the grognards, who now have to create one less city in an established Hero game world from scratch.

 

I don't know how many games I've been drawn into because they offered a free quick start and/or a cheap basic intro rule/setting book.

[gojira]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Even the basic rules are over 100 pages long. If you include them in a genre book' date=' you're either making the book 100+ pages longer than it would otherwise have been (making it cost more), or you're providing 100+ pages less genre material in order to make room for the rules (giving the player who already owns the rules less for his or her money).[/quote']

 

Well I know it won't happen now' date=' but I always liked my 2 book basic idea. Basically it was a line of Genre supplements meant to be used with the basic book, that would be about the same size.[/quote']

 

 

While a neat idea, Jm, I think Derek's objection here would still apply. Buying a set of rules that is "basic" while knowing the full rules are out there and might be needed eventually is a non-starter for a lot of people. Especially if those people are new. I can't see the value of "buy all the rules twice" myself.

 

I still think the best bet is to trim down the physical size of the rules, then build on that. One system to rule them all, and no "extra" books needed. Once you've got the core rules, you've got them. There's no other "advanced" rules that half (or more) that the product line uses. That's value for the customer, and one they will appreciate.

 

If Hero had a lot (a lot, lot) more customers, this might be feasible. As is, I think the best Hero could hope for is to convert some gamers who wanted a smaller system, and obtain slightly more profitability that way. Two product lines, one basic and one full are just not going to work financially.

[Shiva13]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Hello people. I am the "hater" with the 8 year plus history over on RPG.net. Surprised that I am here? You shouldn't be.

 

My history with the Hero System goes back into 3rd edition. I've had a love/hate relationship with the game system since that time. Partly because of what I saw as system exploits, part of because of the behaviour of people out to abuse the system Itself. That created quite a bit of fatigue as a GM. If not outright dread in dealing with the whole thing.

 

What I love about the system is the fact you can make a character just the way you want to make it. That an honest player who is not looking to be exploitive can make a character they are happy with playing from the outset, and be a credit to whatever campaign they are a part of. I'm a big fan of the good times that can be had, without misbehaviour.

 

Then there were the encounters with actual negative elements of the community itself. Caused by individuals engaged in acts of absolute zealotry regarding the game system itself. Zealotry I do not condone or excuse in any form. They leave a stain on the gaming community as a whole.

 

So why am I here? I still follow the system. And as any company rep here can tell you, I buy Hero System products directly from the company. I played in chatroom run Hero System campaigns on this very site. And I have a right to my opinions. Just as other people have a right to disagree with them.

 

Everybody has a history. Everybody also grows and evolves other time. As do their opinions.

[Beast]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I asked Steve about a book 4E sized He said it would confuse the public

I think he was wrong

I have heard way too many gripe that 6E is waaaaay to big

 

What I would like to know is how well did the 4E Hero System book do compared to the BBB

 

If I were going to suggest a product, it would probably be the complete rules in a 4E sized volume. Say, 256 pages. All of the Powers, Skills, Advantages, Limitations, etc. Cut way back on the commentary; that can go into a free downloadable doc, or a separate saleable product. Maybe put out a free "how to play" document like I mentioned elsewhere (Narf's document built up to 16 pages, let's say) that doesn't really give you the rules.

 

[lemming]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

I asked Steve about a book 4E sized He said it would confuse the public

I think he was wrong

I have heard way too many gripe that 6E is waaaaay to big

 

What I would like to know is how well did the 4E Hero System book do compared to the BBB

The 4E book did exactly the same as the BBB, since they are the same. Did you mean 5th edition for one of the comparisons?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

While a neat idea' date=' Jm, I think Derek's objection here would still apply. Buying a set of rules that is "basic" while knowing the full rules are out there and might be needed eventually is a non-starter for a lot of people. Especially if those people are new. I can't see the value of "buy all the rules twice" myself.[/quote']

 

I see no value to buying the basic rules when I have and play by the full rules. That said, how many people have purchased the Basic D&D boxed set, or the new Pathfinder boxed set? These were entry level products. Many people buy game systems whose rule systems are "the basic rules", then buy supplements that add to the rules. Even Hero has 6e, plus HSMA (if you want to build maneuvers) and 2 APG's for just the latest iteration of the rules. The question is how much to strip down to create "basic" rules.

 

The 4E book did exactly the same as the BBB' date=' since they are the same. Did you mean 5th edition for one of the comparisons?[/quote']

 

The BBB combined Hero 4e rules with a Champions product and adventure. The 4e rule book was a separate softcover with only the rules, no genre, etc. I think it had three characters, including a viking, on the cover.

[lemming]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Every edition has gotten larger and more detailed. Both 5th & 6th have had more basic rules available.

 

I think we're never going to hit upon the perfect formula. The big complaint about 4th edition was that it didn't clear up enough of the ambiguities. Now that Steve cleared up a lot of them, the complaint is that the rule book is too detailed.

[lemming]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

The BBB combined Hero 4e rules with a Champions product and adventure. The 4e rule book was a separate softcover with only the rules, no genre, etc. I think it had three characters, including a viking, on the cover.

 

Oh that's right. Though the softcover followed the BBB in publication.

[Beast]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

No

there was never a system only book for 5th ed(5th ed and FREd where the equals to the BBB)

And that was the point

 

I started back in 1985 I got the BBB when it came out

I got the 4E HS because it was smaller and easier to take to the games I played in at Caltech and the Gaming House

Others got it ,because it was a better investment and did not have the fluff they did not need

 

4th ed was what 20$ vs 35-40$ for BBB(some had Hero maker included)

 

Sidekick and HSB are tiny compared to FREd and 6th ed for newcomers

people look at that and go you have got to be losing a lot of content(rules)

what we as old timers know is that Sidekick and HSB where boiled down and trimmed to the bare minimum and no fluff

 

4th ed was the happy medium ,all the rules in a not scary size for newbies, while having all you need in ONE BOOK

 

 

 

The 4E book did exactly the same as the BBB' date=' since they are the same. Did you mean 5th edition for one of the comparisons?[/quote']

[Beast]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Yet Steve was able to do Sidekick and HSB in under 150 pages and get around 85% of all the rules into those books

I'm sure somebody can add the rest of the rules(only) in an extra 100 pages

 

Every edition has gotten larger and more detailed. Both 5th & 6th have had more basic rules available.

 

I think we're never going to hit upon the perfect formula. The big complaint about 4th edition was that it didn't clear up enough of the ambiguities. Now that Steve cleared up a lot of them, the complaint is that the rule book is too detailed.

[phoenix240]

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

 

Every edition has gotten larger and more detailed. Both 5th & 6th have had more basic rules available.

 

I think we're never going to hit upon the perfect formula. The big complaint about 4th edition was that it didn't clear up enough of the ambiguities. Now that Steve cleared up a lot of them, the complaint is that the rule book is too detailed.

 

 

Yeah, its like the game can't win.