Cinniuint Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 I played in a campaign many years ago where a couple of the GMs defined transforming a locked lock to an unlocked lock as a cosmetic transformation. I agree with them from the standpoint of feel/sfx/definition, but I disagree from the position of game balance. I am ultimately inclined to hang game balance and just accept that this is a really cool bit of power gaming, well reasoned, and worth rewarding the creativity of the idea. I should also note that my groups tend to be about story and roleplaying. Game balance of little import, and vastly different characters play side by side with no problems. Well, sometimes. My question is this: What do you think? Generally, and for your campaigns specifically? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinniuint Posted November 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform Oops! I didn't select that icon. Perhaps I am subconciously trying to censor my self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform I think that it depends on how broadly you define the effects. I think that it is indeed a cosmetic transform if you are talking about your standard 5 lever locks and padlocks etc. You should be able to gain entry to houses, offices, steal bicycles etc. If you extend that to other more complicated mechanical locks and electronic ones, then you are talking a much broader power which is less cosmetic. You say that you agree from an SFX standpoint. The application of HERO mechanics are nothing to do with SFX - they are all about balancing the game. The SFX are a layer inform the choice of mechanics and come after the mechanics are in place, during gameplay. If SFX are your only point of agreement then you are not really agreeing on the mechanics at all. Locked to Unlocked could represent a few different mechanics depending on what you are talking about - not necessarily just transform (cosmetic or not). Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escafarc Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform I wouldn't allow it as a Transform. This an example of a Skill(Lockpicking) bought as a Power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform It is also a prime example of a wizard's Knock spell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arc Esu Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform I'm with Escafarc on this one. I'm pretty sure Transform specifically says it shouldn't be used to replace another power, and in this case, the "power" it is replacing is Lockpicking. I mean, would you allow someone to use Transform to turn a "computer" into "a computer that is giving me all the information I want?" No, because that's clearly a use of Computer Programming. Or Transform "myself" into "myself knowing about wine?" No, that's KS: Wine. Similarly, I wouldn't let you use Transform to unlock a lock. You could use Transform to turn the lock into cheese or something so you could just rip it off, but at that point you're clearly talking a Major or Severe Transform, which is priced similarly to a Killing Attack. That's balanced because you could just use a killing attack to blast off a lock anyway. Now if a character was focused around Transforms and hadn't thought to buy various skills for it, I might allow it once as a Power Trick. But if you want to regularly transform locks from locked to unlocked, but Lockpicking to a high level and add "costs END" or other appropriate limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform My only problem with using lockpicking is that the skill is based on DEX (from memory) and how dextrous the character is should have no influence on the success of this power. It is also not likely that the transform power need be restrainable which the skill obviously is.... Now, perhaps we could look at other things to substitute for DEX or we could just say that Invisibility and Stealth Skill step on each others toes. A wizard opening a door with Knock and a thief picking the lock are two different things in my mind and that can be represented through the difference between a power and a skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escafarc Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform My only problem with using lockpicking is that the skill is based on DEX (from memory) and how dextrous the character is should have no influence on the success of this power. It is also not likely that the transform power need be restrainable which the skill obviously is.... Now, perhaps we could look at other things to substitute for DEX or we could just say that Invisibility and Stealth Skill step on each others toes. A wizard opening a door with Knock and a thief picking the lock are two different things in my mind and that can be represented through the difference between a power and a skill. I believe there are rules for this. You buy it at a base roll of 9- and increase it as normal. EDIT: 6E1 page 283 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform I'm with Escafarc on this one. I'm pretty sure Transform specifically says it shouldn't be used to replace another power' date=' and in this case, the "power" it is replacing is Lockpicking. [/quote'] Lockpicking isn't a power, it's a skill. The use of Transform: Locked to Unlocked is used in official HERO books. IIRC, it's a Minor Transform rather than a Cosmetic one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escafarc Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform Lockpicking isn't a power, it's a skill. Lockpicking bought as Power is a Power 6E1 page 283 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform I believe there are rules for this. You buy it at a base roll of 9- and increase it as normal. EDIT: 6E1 page 283 Will have a look at what it says. Seems bad to start at 9 or less though when the normal skill would under usual circumstances start at 11 or less. Does it say anything about restrainable etc? Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escafarc Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform Will have a look at what it says. Seems bad to start at 9 or less though when the normal skill would under usual circumstances start at 11 or less. Does it say anything about restrainable etc? Doc No, but you can add Modifiers just as if it was a Power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikModi Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform On the idea of Transforming a locked lock into an unlocked lock, I'm suddenly flashing back to an old TV show called Roswell. . . If you didn't see it (and I'd actually be surprised if many did, or remember it) the aliens on the show (who are actually alien/human hybrids, so look completely human) have the power to alter molecular structures. One of the many spiffy uses for this power is to simply hold their hand over a lock and unlock it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform Watch what you're calling old there, junior. And stay off my lawn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Folded Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform The Skill Lockpicking is just that, a skill. If I want to represent someone carefully working the tumblers and unlocking a door based on knowledge and ability, then I say, buy the skill. But skills can fail, and not every character concept includes that possibility. With the right justification, I would be perfectly willing to allow a Transform of this type, especially in a genre that does not include widespread knowledge of exactly how locks work. Probably not as a Cosmetic Transform, mind you, but a Transform of some sort. For that matter, you could just buy a KA Only vs. Locks and get a similar effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform For the cost of a 5d6 Minor Transform (and I would, if allowing it at all, call this a Minor or Major Transform) you could buy Lockpicking at 23-. Which would make a Bank Vault with Retinal Scanners and Voice Recognition and a DNA based Biometric device (which I'm randomly assigning as an ungodly difficult -10) open on a 13-. Alternately, it would open a standard combination bank vault (-3) while standing on your head in a rainstorm and covered in ants (another -8) open on a 12-. Keep in mind "Knock" was not an automatic open of any lock, IIRC the lock got a saving throw based on the quality of the lock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform Depends on the edition. Knock wasn't for locks, necessarily, but anything that could be opened that was bound shut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform I would think about Dispel. But it is hard to judge the Active Points of a Lock. I would propably go with Escafarc's ideas and use the Simple Lockpicking. For hard to break magical locks, I would go with barrier (because you can't Lockpick a Barrier, only break it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform VPP Access? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform VPP Access? (Just giving you trouble ) I have many times overrode the "Hey, that doesn't belong in a VPP" but can't really see "Access" as "Opening a Lock." The Access perk means you have a "membership card" and the right to be in a place that could benefit you (like the CIA's computer systems), as well as a "key to the door." I really do think lockpicking (plus maybe security systems) at a ridiculously high roll is the best bet. But then I've been known to be "wrong" about things before, and will be again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform VPP Access? Not really. While some Perks are okay in a Framework, thoses are usuable "tangible" and moveable things: Computer, Vehicle, Robot companions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform "Hold on... I've got to go back to the Bat-Cave and get my Bat-Skeleton Key." (Bat-God) [edit]: "What was I thinking? I've got my Bat-Skeleton Key on me at all times!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinniuint Posted November 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform For a character with Telekinesis and the ability to sense the tumblers in a lock, a very high lockpicking, bought as a power, seems appropriate. For a character who just makes a lock be not locked, transform seems to me the way to go. Thanks for all the responses. It seems the concensus is IF transform is used, it should be more than a cosmetic transform. And I agree generally, but probably not for my group. Game balance is just less important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Folded Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform Alternatively, a Transform bought to affect a key might be a good way of describing it as well. Or, The Janitor has his Mighty Ring Of Keys, which always has the right key on it, somewhere, if he can find it. There's also the Keymaker from the Matrix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Re: A powerful cosmetic transform For a character with Telekinesis and the ability to sense the tumblers in a lock' date=' a very high lockpicking, bought as a power, seems appropriate. For a character who just makes a lock be not locked, transform seems to me the way to go. Thanks for all the responses.[/quote'] How is Lockpicking not apropirate for the later chase? Nobody says a character has his Skill because of Knowledge/Training: Opened a Thousand Locks: Lockpicking, 13- Thieves Guild Lock Training: Lockpicking, 13- and Can open locks by laying his hand on them: Lockpicking, 13- are equally in Function, but totally different in SFX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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