Hero System 101: Comments sought

[Barwickian]

I'm working in a short series if introduction to Hero articles I'm calling Hero 101.

 

This one here is a draft of Hero In Play - the key concepts a player should grasp to understand what's going on at the table. I thought I'd seek some imput before I nobble the final version together.

 

I'm addressing success rolls, effect rolls, attack rolls and damage (normal and killing).

 

Does it read OK? Will it help a noob, or have I made it too complex? Is there anything else it should address? Have I cocked up the mechanics somewhere?

 

Subsequent essays will cover character creation, simple combat (with only standard manoeuvres and no optional rules), advanced combat with some of my favourite optional rules and perhaps campaign creation.

 

Emphasis on them will be heroic scale, rather than superheroic, as those are the games I tend to play.

 

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[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

Not to put a damper on what could be a very cool project, but you'll want to take some care about how much detail you get into lest you essentially give away the product.

[Folded]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

Excellent introduction. That's the clearest explanation of why they changed the Attack Roll wording that I've heard.

 

Two notes:

1) The examples you give for Resistant Defenses are all physical and are essentially forms of armor. This might result in a new player misunderstanding the concept. I'd recommend some other possibilities being listed (force field, inherent toughness, luck, all the usual suspects).

 

2) In the final example, the target's PD is not given (it is his ED that is given in the previous example), nor is it made clear that non-Resistant defenses count versus the STUN of a KA. Clarifying this would make this example work better.

[danbuter1]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

Not to put a damper on what could be a very cool project' date=' but you'll want to take some care about how much detail you get into lest you essentially give away the product.[/quote']

 

Seriously? That's what you come up with?

 

He's not giving the powers list or anything else...

[Barwickian]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

Two notes:

1) The examples you give for Resistant Defenses are all physical and are essentially forms of armor. This might result in a new player misunderstanding the concept. I'd recommend some other possibilities being listed (force field, inherent toughness, luck, all the usual suspects).

 

2) In the final example, the target's PD is not given (it is his ED that is given in the previous example), nor is it made clear that non-Resistant defenses count versus the STUN of a KA. Clarifying this would make this example work better.

 

Thanks. Essay amended.

[Barwickian]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

Not to put a damper on what could be a very cool project' date=' but you'll want to take some care about how much detail you get into lest you essentially give away the product.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I'm aware of that. I'm trying to explain the rules, rather than replace them. The main reason for it is that I want something I can give to new players to remind them of the way Hero works (yes, remind: I generally introduce new players with trial combats and pregen characters - but if I leave it a couple of weeks between trials, I find I have to run through the whole thing again).

 

I also hope it will encourage them to acquire the basic rulebook at least. In that regard, I've added a link to Hero Games' website and a recommendation to get a set of rules.

 

If a Hero staffer thinks I've crossed the line, please tell me and I'll amend or remove the essay.

[gojira]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

You know about Hero in Two Pages, right? Just pointing that out.

[Barwickian]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

You know about Hero in Two Pages' date=' right? Just pointing that out.[/quote']

 

Yes, got it and will be giving it to my players alongside this one. I find Hero in Two Pages a superb ready reference, but not so good on the explanation side of things.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

The description of Success roll resolution is very good; nice job

 

The damage and armor descriptions could be tightened up IMO. You might consider pairing damage types with armor types so that it is more clear what Resistant does, i.e. Defense stops both STUN and BODY damage. Killing attacks (knives, bullets, lasers) bypass Normal defenses for BODY damage. Normal defenses will stop BODY damage from Normal attacks (punches, clubs, and other blunt trauma). Resistant defenses stops BODY from Killing attacks but it otherwise just like Normal defenses.

 

(Okay, maybe that wasn't much more clear than what you had written, but hopefully you get the gist.)

 

You might mention that you get your REC score in STUN every turn (or PHA when resting), but REC score in BDY every month; that gives the mechanic and lets the players know just how different the recovery rates are.

 

All-in-all well done.

[Barwickian]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

The damage and armor descriptions could be tightened up IMO.

 

I think you're right, and you're on the right track with describing the effect. I'll work on it.

 

Something like: Normal Defence protects against Normal Attacks, but only stops the STUN of Killing Attacks. Resistant Defence protects against both Normal and Killing Attacks.

 

Some special attacks, designated No Normal Defence (NND), bypass both Normal and Resistant Defence, but every NND attack must have a counter which completely protects against it - for example, a garrote may be designated NND (protection is rigid protection around the neck). If a character has rigid neck protection, he takes no damage; if he does not, he takes full damage.

 

Addendum: Esay updated to include this change, and renamed HS101: Core Mechanics. I think there's a separate essay on Hero System In Play.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

Andy. Had comments on original, will read amended and see if they are still relevant.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

Two things.

1) Whoa whoa whoa. Been a while since I've played 6th. Normal Defense stops Killing STUN???

 

2) I don't know if this example is helpful to anyone, but often when I explain the difference between Normal and Killing Damage, I ask them to imagine me taking a baseball bat, winding it up, and hitting them as hard as I could across the ribs with it. Then imagine I'd used a sword instead of a bat. That's the difference.

[Folded]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

Two things.

1) Whoa whoa whoa. Been a while since I've played 6th. Normal Defense stops Killing STUN???

 

That's been true since at least 5th, which I know because I've never played 6th. We missed that detail for quite a while, and it changes the value of KA's significantly.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

1) Whoa whoa whoa. Been a while since I've played 6th. Normal Defense stops Killing STUN???

 

Had to go check. 6th does indeed get rid of the rule that you needed some resistant defence before you could add normal defence against Killing stun.

 

Will have to dig out my 5th edition book to check that. Very possibly a BBB truism that I have never checked up on....

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

OK - some suggestions from reading this over.

 

In the second example I would have the reference to the page numbers in a footnote - spoils an otherwise clean example.

 

In the third example I would provide the alternative scenario in a final sentence

"If she had rolled 14 or more the guard would have spotted her".

 

Your opening sentence for attack rolls says "An attack roll is a specialised kind of success roll..." Would that not suggest that the text would siot better after your success roll section?

 

In Hit Points and Armour, your second paragraph starts "There are also two kinds of damage sink..." I wpould have thought that prevention would be a better word than sink.

 

I was also thinking that in this section you began to get too much into SFX of defences in the text. I think it would be better to stick to mechanics in the text and use examples if you want to describe those mechanics in use.

 

In Damage Rolls you begin by stating that "Damage Rolls are a specialised form of effect roll". I would be inclined to put this at the end of the effect roll section with an additional sentence indicating that you come back to more the details later in the essay.

 

I would then be inclined to insert the text of the next three paragraphs into the hit points and armour section, in between the discussion of hit points and armour. That makes sense as you progress from your hit points, to what reduces those hit points and then to what can prevent that damage from happening. The fifth paragraph essentially repeats the defence text in the previous section because the preceeding paragraphs demand something about defence.

 

The damage rolls section can then focus purely on the rolls and how they work.

 

You also get on, in the Damage Rolls section, to the Effects of Damage. I would be inc lined to hive that off into a section of its own, called Effects of Damage funnily enough!

 

So, mostly structural comments. My inclination is for progressive text and small paragraphs with more headings!

 

Doc

[Barwickian]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's surprised by this KA STUN issue. Learning that I've been doing it wrong for several years is the most valuable thing I've got out of this so far, and demonstrates the value of going back to basics once in a while.

 

It also demonstrates the value of the combined wisdom of the board.

 

@ Doc: Thanks for the thoroughness - all of it very good advice. I started to realise when rereading the thing yesterday that it had growed and growed. Some restructuring is definitely in order. But it was pub night last night. Restructuring will come... later.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

That's been true since at least 5th' date=' which I know because I've never played 6th. We missed that detail for quite a while, and it changes the value of KA's significantly.[/quote']

Um, that was only true in 5th if you had at least some rDEF, it was not the default.

[Folded]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

Um' date=' that was only true in 5th if you had at least some rDEF, it was not the default.[/quote']

 

True, but none of us (nor NPC's we used) ever had zero Resistant Defenses. Except for civilians, but we generally ignored them except for flavor.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

True' date=' but none of us (nor NPC's we used) ever had zero Resistant Defenses. Except for civilians, but we generally ignored them except for flavor.[/quote']

Well, that's the experience of your group. Doesn't make it the rule.

EDIT: Obviously it's not everyones experience since someone up-thread showed surprise that it was now that way in 6E.

[assault]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

I'm pretty much sure it was the rule from day one. That's why very few superheroic PCs in the games I've played in have had no resistance defences.

 

I'd completely failed to check 6e to see if it had changed. Come to think of it, I don't think I checked it in 5th either! I just assumed it was the same...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

Um' date=' that was only true in 5th if you had at least some rDEF, it was not the default.[/quote']

 

True' date=' but none of us (nor NPC's we used) ever had zero Resistant Defenses. Except for civilians, but we generally ignored them except for flavor.[/quote']

 

Well, that's the experience of your group. Doesn't make it the rule.

EDIT: Obviously it's not everyones experience since someone up-thread showed surprise that it was now that way in 6E.

 

I'm pretty much sure it was the rule from day one. That's why very few superheroic PCs in the games I've played in have had no resistance defences.

 

I'd completely failed to check 6e to see if it had changed. Come to think of it, I don't think I checked it in 5th either! I just assumed it was the same...

 

Prior to 6th Ed, if you had any resistant defenses, your normal defenses also applied against Stun from a killing attack.

 

6e removed the requirement to have resistant defenses - normal defenses always reduce the Stun from a killing attack.

 

Count me among those who does not see this as a significant change, as virtually every credible combatant had at least some resistant defense. Combat Luck basically was created to allow characters who had a tough time justifying a bit of rDEF to justify a bit of rDEF.

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

Seriously? That's what you come up with?

 

He's not giving the powers list or anything else...

 

Hero's pretty good about things like this, but core mechanics are part of their IP so it's up to them, not us.

 

I mentioned it because it was a concern of mine while writing a series of blog articles (unfinished, I do need to get back to them some time soon) where I tried to do something similar. It's less of a summary (as this is) and more of a commentary for beginners. I PM'd either Darren or Steve (don't recall) to draw their attention to it and asked them to let me know if I was stepping on their IP boundaries.

[Folded]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

Prior to 6th Ed, if you had any resistant defenses, your normal defenses also applied against Stun from a killing attack.

 

6e removed the requirement to have resistant defenses - normal defenses always reduce the Stun from a killing attack.

 

Count me among those who does not see this as a significant change, as virtually every credible combatant had at least some resistant defense. Combat Luck basically was created to allow characters who had a tough time justifying a bit of rDEF to justify a bit of rDEF.

 

The significant change for us was when we realized that Normal Defenses applied AT ALL to Killing Attacks. We played for years with only Resistant applying. That does alter the value of KAs.

[torchwolf]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

Looking good.

 

Some quick nits picked:

 

You might want to put the use of modified dice (d6-1, d6+1, d6/2 or d3) at the top, so you have all that in one place.

 

Under Normal Damage:

If this is intended primarily for Heroic campaigns, odds are characters will end up with STR 13 or 18, so you'll get d3 of Normal Damage fairly often, and might mention that.

(same of course for Presence Attacks with PRE ending in 3 or 8)

 

Under Killing Damage:

According to RAW, the STUN multiplier is rolled before defenses are applied, not after - same if you use Hit Locations.

(as a House Rule, I've applied it after defenses when using Hit Locations in some of my campaigns, but that's not by the book)

[IKerensky]

Re: Hero System 101: Comments sought

 

Very good job. Tell me when you got a finished version so I can translate it into french for my players