Anti Magic-Field

[lifo]

Let's consider Magic as a whole as a single special effect and assume that anti-magic is something that wizard can cast and create.

An Anti-Magic Field will be constructed this way:

Anti Magic Field: Suppress - Drain Magic 1d6, Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Magic Powers (+1/2), Expanded Effect (all powers simultaneously) (+3 1/2) (52 Active Points); Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2)

 

But that is just for 1d6. To be an effective Anti-Magic field we should probably raise it to the maximum AP in magic powers achievable in the campaign using the standard effect rule. Let's say the maximum in the campaign is 100AP. So we'd need about 33d6 of effect, making the field (at 4m radius) cost 1732AP/1155RP.

 

Is it not too steep as a price for, like, every campaign with that AP cap or am I missing something?

I understand that suppressing entirely all powers of a single special effect is a really powerful weapon, but that price seem too much.

[Folded]

Re: Anti Magic-Field

 

Well, turning off a character's entire power set is supposed to be expensive, and this would turn off every mage within a four meter radius, as well as any items or devices that relied on magic as their special effect. For a plot area in an adventure, I can see this being legitimate, but for a personal power, it's something that should be restricted to the Big Powers only. I certainly wouldn't want a PC running around being able to do this.

 

What might work better would be to work on the Limitations of spellcasting, such as Gestures and Incantations. A silence field or Entangle (Only to prevent spell Gestures) would have the same ultimate effect without being quite so expensive or unbalancing. Or you could create a Custom Limitation for all powers you wanted to affect - Doesn't Work in Anti-Magic Field, and then create a Custom Power for Anti-Magic Field with what you feel is an appropriate cost, depending on the campaign. You could base it on Change Environment, and then even give it a scaling effect, with some fields simply making magic more difficult/expensive, and others making it impossible. Increased END costs, penalties to RSR rolls, Side Effects, all sorts of things could happen.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Anti Magic-Field

 

Another option to consider is the 'Unified Power' Limitation (usually used by Supers).

You could allow magic users to take this limitation or house-rule that it is already in effect in the campaign as a 0-point Limitation.

 

Either approach would allow an Anti-Magic Field effect to built on character level points.

 

Here is an example of how a similar approach is useful in a supers game.

[lifo]

Re: Anti Magic-Field

 

Well' date=' turning off a character's entire power set is supposed to be expensive, and this would turn off every mage within a four meter radius, as well as any items or devices that relied on magic as their special effect. For a plot area in an adventure, I can see this being legitimate, but for a personal power, it's something that should be restricted to the Big Powers only. I certainly wouldn't want a PC running around being able to do this.[/quote']

Well, I wouldn't too. But in my campaign is, or should be, admissible that somebody could cast an AM field over an area - not only as a plot element - given time and other expenses, like if he was enchanting an item.

But with those AP/RP costs is nearly impossibile for everyone, whatever the enchanting item method may be.

 

What might work better would be to work on the Limitations of spellcasting' date=' such as Gestures and Incantations. A silence field or Entangle (Only to prevent spell Gestures) would have the same ultimate effect without being quite so expensive or unbalancing. Or you could create a Custom Limitation for all powers you wanted to affect - Doesn't Work in Anti-Magic Field, and then create a Custom Power for Anti-Magic Field with what you feel is an appropriate cost, depending on the campaign. You could base it on Change Environment, and then even give it a scaling effect, with some fields simply making magic more difficult/expensive, and others making it impossible. Increased END costs, penalties to RSR rolls, Side Effects, all sorts of things could happen.[/quote']

Yeah. I went through some of this options.

Altough they're fascinating as alternative suppress systems, they got the problem that they wouldn't stop player casting and magical item use at the same time. Spells are built around similar limitations that I can use to dampen them (they all have RSR, so I was thinking a CE giving -20 penalty to the roll), but magic item aren't.

 

Another option to consider is the 'Unified Power' Limitation (usually used by Supers).

You could allow magic users to take this limitation or house-rule that it is already in effect in the campaign as a 0-point Limitation.

 

Either approach would allow an Anti-Magic Field effect to built on character level points.

That's an interesting idea, but I fear it would reverse the problem, making AM too easy of a task for every caster. The problem in designing fantasy magic is that everyone with magic abilities could do the same at one point.

 

Oh, by the way. I think you'll better understand what I'm looking for if I reveal the fact that my campaign is actually a conversion of an old D&D campaign. Thus, I'm looking for that kind of impact of AM in the game.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Anti Magic-Field

 

Well if it's a D&D conversion you should really take a look at KillerShrike's work here:

http://killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/VancianSpells/ActiveSpellsList.aspx?EffectTypeId=8

(search page for keyword suppress)

Wizardry Abjuration Level 6 Selected:

 

Real Cost: 35 Active Points: 105 Provider: Shadowcat Source: New Content Keywords Anti-Magic Description The caster creates a small Anti-Magic field that lasts for up to a Minute. Note that with the Vancian Magic system, all effects include "contact with an Anti-Magic field with equal or greater Active Points" as part of the turn-off clause for their Charge. Thus, any Vancian spell of 105 AP or less will turn off automatically upon entering this Anti-Magic effect. Such spells also cannot be cast from within or into such a zone either. Effect Suppress 6d6, all Magical Spells simultaneously (+2), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (105 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)

The Vancian spell system is pretty cool conversion of D&D to HERO.

http://killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHero/MagicSystems/Vancian.aspx

[Ternaugh]

Re: Anti Magic-Field

 

33d6 of anything in a Heroic campaign is a lot, and should be expensive. In the campaigns that I run, an Anti-Magic field this strong would either be a plot device, or a known feature of the landscape. It wouldn't be something that was casually wielded by the typical caster. That said, there are some options I would probably consider to reduce the cost in my own games.

 

1. Rewind the costs for Suppress to pre-6Ed levels. When Suppress was its own power, it cost 5 points per die, and the Expanded Effect Advantage maxed out at +2. So, Suppress 33d6 All Magic Powers simultaneously with a 4m radius would be 536 Active. This is still costly for a power like this, but is probably the way that I'd go in my own campaign.

 

2. Use Hyper-Man's "Unified Power" solution. Treat all magic as a Unified Power. Plugging in our numbers, our Suppress Magic 33d6, 4m radius would be 577 Active. Wide-spectrum Dispels would be extremely cheap under this model, however. Figure that a Dispel 33d6 4m radius attack would pretty much eliminate all but the most powerful magic on a typical character, for 173 Active. For added effect, add Cumulative. Staying under the 100 Active limitation, we could have a Dispel Magic 12d6 4m Radius, Cumulative (x4, Maximum 288 Points). Magic items would be at risk with this, unless they had Difficult to Dispel.

 

JoeG

[Folded]

Re: Anti Magic-Field

 

Here's an alternative from another direction. I don't have access to 6e rules, so I won't bother with numbers, but this might work.

 

Transform (Volume of Normal Space into Same Size Volume of Space where Magic Does Not Work), Radius (4m), Healed by Decision/Death of Caster, Costs END to maintain, Affects Desolid.

 

This would eliminate the whole question of the AP of the Powers being affected, would affect both items and casters alike, would dispel pre-existing enchantments, et cetera. Not sure how many dice you'd want to buy, but I'd set this at 75-100 AP by GM Fiat. Don't get hung up on RAW if it doesn't fit what you want to do.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Anti Magic-Field

 

Yeah. I went through some of this options.

Altough they're fascinating as alternative suppress systems, they got the problem that they wouldn't stop player casting and magical item use at the same time. Spells are built around similar limitations that I can use to dampen them (they all have RSR, so I was thinking a CE giving -20 penalty to the roll), but magic item aren't.

 

Not sure you have fully thought through what Folded was saying because one of his suggestions does in fact give you the D&D flavour.

 

For example, each and every magic spell and magic item has the limitation "has no effect in an anti-magic field".

 

You make available the spell/ritual - anti-magic field to players and NPCs alike. I like the suggestion of basing it on Change Environment as that is, effectively what you are doing. When the Change Environment is in effect, nothing within that area that has the limitation of "has no effect in anti-magic field" will work....casting and items will have no effect.

 

That means you need to set out the rules of magic construction to follow this rule but it does make the cancellation of magic a much simpler proposition. The availability of anti-magic would define the nature of the campaign quite strongly though - you can manipulate that either by making it difficult to use or require components that are rare and/or expensive to obtain.

 

Doc

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Anti Magic-Field

 

In my campaign, all magic systems have "Requires a Roll" limitation, usually the "Power: Magic" skill which is based on either EGO or PRE depending on the nature of the caster (most wizards use INT to learn spells, EGO to cast; most priests or sorcerers, with more "innate magic" than "learned magic", use PRE):

 

Antimagic Field:Change Environment (-10 Skill or Char rolls to cast Magic, Alterable Origin Point), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4) (56 Active Points)

 

(This is a quick and dirty write up and does not include the other limitations inherent to magic spells in my setting.)

 

Note that this is a slightly different SFX than what you are mentioning; "Anti-magic" on my world makes casting harder, not impossible, so YMMV.

[Armitage]

Re: Anti Magic-Field

 

In my campaign, all magic systems have "Requires a Roll" limitation, usually the "Power: Magic" skill which is based on either EGO or PRE depending on the nature of the caster (most wizards use INT to learn spells, EGO to cast; most priests or sorcerers, with more "innate magic" than "learned magic", use PRE):

 

Antimagic Field:Change Environment (-10 Skill or Char rolls to cast Magic, Alterable Origin Point), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4) (56 Active Points)

 

(This is a quick and dirty write up and does not include the other limitations inherent to magic spells in my setting.)

 

Note that this is a slightly different SFX than what you are mentioning; "Anti-magic" on my world makes casting harder, not impossible, so YMMV.

 

The problem with that is that it would only inhibit spells cast within the area of effect. Most anti-magic fields (in D&D, at least) also prevent spells from entering the field from outside.

 

I had considered using Change Environment with an "anti-magic" effect costing x points per level of effect, and each level of effect blocking a number of active points of magic representing one "level" of spells.

Then, you can have Minor Globe of Invulnerability, which blocks spells up to 3rd level (70 AP), Globe of Invulnerability, which blocks spells up to 4th level (90 AP), and Antimagic Field, which blocks spells up to 9th level (190 AP)

[Folded]

Re: Anti Magic-Field

 

The problem with that is that it would only inhibit spells cast within the area of effect. Most anti-magic fields (in D&D, at least) also prevent spells from entering the field from outside.

 

I had considered using Change Environment with an "anti-magic" effect costing x points per level of effect, and each level of effect blocking a number of active points of magic representing one "level" of spells.

Then, you can have Minor Globe of Invulnerability, which blocks spells up to 3rd level (70 AP), Globe of Invulnerability, which blocks spells up to 4th level (90 AP), and Antimagic Field, which blocks spells up to 9th level (190 AP)

 

But Globe of Invulnerability doesn't affect items, nor does it dispel (IIRC) currently active spells on someone who moves through the globe. The OP is looking for something that will shut down ALL magic in a given area, regardless of AP, source or pre-existence. D&D only uses such things as plot points, not character abilities, unless things have changed a lot more than I remember.

 

I think Doc Democracy has it right, above. Build all magic powers with "Doesn't Work In Anti-Magic Fields" and then set up a base power that generates them. If they're to be common and easy, base it on Change Environment. If they're to be rarer and more difficult, base it on Darkness, Barrier, or some kind of Defense. There wouldn't be any levels of effect, only Advantages and Limitations such as AoE, END modifiers, Concentration/Gestures/Incantations, et cetera. Something like this, maybe:

 

Anti-Magic Field - Cancels all magic within the area of effect. Base effect only covers caster, who becomes immune to magical effects of any kind while the field is active. Secondary effects are not reduced unless they, too, are magical. (Example: The Fireball doesn't do any damage, but the flames caused by setting the room on fire with it certainly can). Magical effects on weapons are ignored by the caster, but not the effects of the weapons themselves (pointy is still pointy). Magical effects that come in contact with the field are disabled while in contact with it (for permanent termination of effects, link an appropriate Dispel or Transform to the field). Base cost - 20 points (2 END).

 

A-M Field, 4m Radius - 25 AP/RC

A-M Field, 4m Radius, Always On - 40 AP/27 RC

 

Seems a little on the light side, in terms of cost, but bumping the Base up will allow for fine-tuning the ultimate points that have to be paid.

[lifo]

Re: Anti Magic-Field

 

Thank you, guys.

You really gave me something to work on.

I have to say that Folded transform idea intrigued me a lot, but also the proposal of giving a "doesn't work in AM field" to every spell and then alter a base power to function as AM power could be a nice course of action (I didn't get it right the first time. Doc was right).

I'll put some more thoughts about the impact that I want AM have in my campaign and the I'll decide which to use.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Anti Magic-Field

 

Here's how I modeled it for my campaigns:

ANTI-MAGIC

 

Excerpt:

ANTI-MAGIC
This option is in effect in my campaigns
D&D source material has the concept of Anti-Magic, which is a very arbitrarily absolute effect only available at higher levels of Magic use and cautiously employed. Some GM's like this concept and would like to model it in the HERO System.
However, the HERO System does not recognize absolute effects by default, so it can be difficult to generate enough Active Points to achieve the same level of effect in the HERO System with Anti-Magic as is typical in the source material.
For GM's that wish to overcome this difficulty, the following recommendations are made:

   The term "Anti-Magic" or "Anti-Magic Field" refers to any AoE Continuous Uncontrolled Suppress or Dispel bought to affect All Magic Simultaneously (+2 3/4)
   All Magical Effects on Continuing Charges are deactivated by contact with an Anti-Magic Field that has equal or greater Active Points, expending the current Charge.
       This can also be expanded to include any Constant/Continuous Magical effect at the GM's discretion.
   Instant effects that cross or enter an Anti-Magic field that has Active Points at least double that of the Instant effect in question are nullified on contact.
       The effects of the Anti-Magic field are still applied to Instant effects that are not nullified.