The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

[Escafarc]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Regardless of which way you build this power it comes down to "genre conventions". I've been pretty lucky that most of the people I game with understand the concept. If this power becomes a problem Ragitsu should talk to the player and work something out.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

I was getting the vibe that Megascale was either not allowed in combat' date=' or much slower in combat (oddly enough).[/quote']

 

My recollection is that nothing prohibits it. However, it is a full phase action, and imposes all the usual non-combat penalties. Given that, the character needs to:

 

First Phase - close in and Grab the target (could fail to hit; target gets casual STR to break free; target may get a later phase to break free; all penalties for Grabbing apply)

 

Second Phase - Megascale T Port (0 OCV, 1/2 DCV, takes full phase - IIRC, Teleport takes an extra phase to use for non-combat movement; I'm assuming that is correct; target can keep trying to escape)

 

Third Phase - POOF - Teleport away - still 0 OCV, 1/2 DCV, but on the asteroid

 

Fourth phase - prepare to 'port back - still 0 OCV, 1/2 DCV, but on the asteroid

 

Fifth phase - 'port back - still 0 OCV, 1/2 DCV, now back in the fray

 

So, effectively, this requires about full turn with no failed rolls. That doesn't seem like a gamebreaker to me.

 

Nor do I. The issue is specifically concerning having the teleporter send someone away that would quickly die in space' date=' as a sort of tactic to dissuade over-teleporting.[/quote']

 

The unfair strategy, to me, would be the target both looking like he has LS (he's identical to those well-known targets you mention) and having some debilitating weakness that means he dies before the hero can do anything about it ("Explodes if teleported into a vacuum" rather than taking standard environmental damage, for example, or having LS with a 1 minute fuel charge so the target dies after the hero leaves). I wouldn't consider using characters who are not immune to environmental damage, or even setting the hero up so he uses this tactic against a vulnerable target and then has to rescue him (he sees the target suffering environmental damage; he returns and one of the opponent's teammates blurts out "My God, he's only got another thirty seconds of air") as being dirty pool - now it's a challenge.

 

It is allowed in combat (regardless what the others say). But with two full phases at 1/2 DCV (normal NCM penalties) it is just a miserable tactic to beginn with. Double so when you do it while holding a Traget (he has two phases to Stun you or break out).

 

I re-read: The gm has the leeway to allow "Grab and Teleport with you", asuming the extra mass is suficcient. But considering that this is a common tactic (not some fringe use), I think Bloodstones Linked UAA Teleport is the best choice.

 

I'd allow the Grab and Teleport assuming the extra mass is there. I wouldn't require Flight UAA to grab someone and fly away, certainly a common tactic to enhance a teammate's mobility, so I wouldn't require UAA on teleport to achieve the same effect. But I would enforce the penalties to forcing this movement on an unwilling target.

[Bloodstone]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Regardless of which way you build this power it comes down to "genre conventions". I've been pretty lucky that most of the people I game with understand the concept. If this power becomes a problem Ragitsu should talk to the player and work something out.

 

I don't know that it's all that rare in genre though.

 

Villains MegaTeleport heroes across galaxies to compete in Secret Wars, Superman threatens to fly people into the sun with Megascaled Flight (and has actually almost done so with Wonder Woman), hulk MegaThrows opponents into Orbit and the Flash runs people out of town in the blink of an eye so that they are safe from explosions or so that he can do battle with them with no threat to innocents.

 

The key is, if it always works and is used to much, the stories are boring.

 

It's the Voltron blazing sword problem in a way...

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Is there a way to make the Megascale teleportation faster/just as fast as other movement powers? What comes to mind are superheroes or cosmic entities bipping and bopping out of combat at rapid speeds.

[Escafarc]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Is there a way to make the Megascale teleportation faster/just as fast as other movement powers? What comes to mind are superheroes or cosmic entities bipping and bopping out of combat at rapid speeds.

 

Extra SPD only for Teleporting. Not cheap but it shouldn't be.

[Bloodstone]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Is there a way to make the Megascale teleportation faster/just as fast as other movement powers? What comes to mind are superheroes or cosmic entities bipping and bopping out of combat at rapid speeds.

 

Well, officially, I'm pretty sure it always takes extra time, but if that isn't appropriate to the campaign you could easily houserule it away.

 

Barring that, you could create an advantage for Teleport, using the various Improved Acceleration/Deceleration advantages.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Is there a way to make the Megascale teleportation faster/just as fast as other movement powers? What comes to mind are superheroes or cosmic entities bipping and bopping out of combat at rapid speeds.

 

I think that this is far more likely to be another power with that SFX...

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

My recollection is that nothing prohibits it. However, it is a full phase action, and imposes all the usual non-combat penalties. Given that, the character needs to:

 

First Phase - close in and Grab the target (could fail to hit; target gets casual STR to break free; target may get a later phase to break free; all penalties for Grabbing apply)

 

Second Phase - Megascale T Port (0 OCV, 1/2 DCV, takes full phase - IIRC, Teleport takes an extra phase to use for non-combat movement; I'm assuming that is correct; target can keep trying to escape)

 

Third Phase - POOF - Teleport away - still 0 OCV, 1/2 DCV, but on the asteroid

 

Fourth phase - prepare to 'port back - still 0 OCV, 1/2 DCV, but on the asteroid

 

Fifth phase - 'port back - still 0 OCV, 1/2 DCV, now back in the fray

 

So, effectively, this requires about full turn with no failed rolls. That doesn't seem like a gamebreaker to me.

 

 

 

The unfair strategy, to me, would be the target both looking like he has LS (he's identical to those well-known targets you mention) and having some debilitating weakness that means he dies before the hero can do anything about it ("Explodes if teleported into a vacuum" rather than taking standard environmental damage, for example, or having LS with a 1 minute fuel charge so the target dies after the hero leaves). I wouldn't consider using characters who are not immune to environmental damage, or even setting the hero up so he uses this tactic against a vulnerable target and then has to rescue him (he sees the target suffering environmental damage; he returns and one of the opponent's teammates blurts out "My God, he's only got another thirty seconds of air") as being dirty pool - now it's a challenge.

 

 

 

I'd allow the Grab and Teleport assuming the extra mass is there. I wouldn't require Flight UAA to grab someone and fly away, certainly a common tactic to enhance a teammate's mobility, so I wouldn't require UAA on teleport to achieve the same effect. But I would enforce the penalties to forcing this movement on an unwilling target.

 

Yep, seems like the appropriate solution is to just rule it takes an extra phase on each side of the tactic--1. grab 2. port 3. arrive 4. leave 5. back--so that doing so each time effectively takes the teleporter themself out of the fight for a turn as well. If they've just been grabbing and porting, then porting back, without extra time enforced, then it's hideously effective, taking only a couple phases at a time. I suspect, if the t-porter is required to be off the battlefield for a turn at a time, you may see the use of the tactic decline. Be sure to give the bad guys their escape chances, too. One easy way to deal with this is to have one more bad guy than there are heroes. That bad guy's job is to attack the teleporter to free comrades, whenever the porter tries this stunt.

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Be sure to give the bad guys their escape chances' date=' too.[/quote']

 

Here's an idea: a villain being found and picked up by a previously unknown alien race, and making their way back to Earth with plans for revenge.

[Christopher]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Is there a way to make the Megascale teleportation faster/just as fast as other movement powers?

Tricky

 

Two things come in mind:

- Invert the Limitations. NCM/Megascale Teleport seems to have a combination of Extra Time (Extra Phase; can't take other actions, -1) and Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4). So propably at least a +1 1/4 Advantage to get it up to Zero-Phase Action.

- Trigger. It's for me the perfect way to deal with "shorter than the rules say". Downside would be that he has to spend time to reset it manually (possibilly the time he saves while activating) or pay a lot for it to be ready again automatically (but after all ,that is a powerfull thing).

 

Overall I would advise agaisnt it. That Teleport NCM take an extra Phase is a very important balacing factor. Otherwise the enemies have difficulty "using" that 1/2 DCV.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

If you want to overcome the slowness of Megascaled teleportation, just buy it flat out without the advantage. Way too costly to get to the asteroid belt, but you don't actually need a heck of a lot of teleport to effectively remove most people from a fight (100m straight up should do the trick in most cases; that is 4 segments they are out of the combat at the end of which they take 20d6 falling damage if they can't fly). You still have the limitations of the Grab to contend with, but whatever solution you come up with should take into account that the Megascale is only part of the problem, so its limitations can only be part of the solution.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Barring that' date=' you could create an advantage for Teleport, using the various Improved Acceleration/Deceleration advantages.[/quote']

 

This is the route I would go. Still a house rule, but it seems fair and balanced. You want to NC teleport faster? That's okay, but you pay a bit extra for the privilege.

[phoenix240]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

I was getting the vibe that Megascale was either not allowed in combat, or much slower in combat (oddly enough).

 

As far as I know, its allowed in Combat. Generally I don't for various reasons but there's no official house rule against it.

 

 

Nor do I. The issue is specifically concerning having the teleporter send someone away that would quickly die in space, as a sort of tactic to dissuade over-teleporting.

 

I don't think it would be unfair to have the possibility be there if the PCs are careless in how they use the tactic. A particularly malicious opponent might even try to set them up or make it look like it was their fault.

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Some simple remedies:

 

Really strong robots with extra STR to resist grabs (or extra limbs to pummel the grabber with multiple attacks) or very heavy robots would probably solve everything. It's always funny to watch an overconfident hero get a hernia. Clinging would work well too (xtra limbs to resist being left behind).

 

I've had players use regular teleport as an attack since we started playing Hero back in 19ahem (yah, I'm old). Grab an opponent, teleport straight up, let go, teleport down. The tactic began to be more difficult when those heroes developed reputations for the attack and villains started holding on or adding short-term jet packs to their equipment list.

 

Teleporting people up into the air to fall to their deaths sounds abusive at first (assuming the opponents can't fly), but it's not much different from (and less effective than) a strong guy throwing opponents straight up (something my character did just a few games ago).

[Christopher]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

[...]but whatever solution you come up with should take into account that the Megascale is only part of the problem' date=' so its limitations can only be part of the solution.[/quote']

It's an advantage that is balanced by the build-in limitations. The same way AVAD is balanced by the need for "Does Body". if you wan't an Avad that does body, you spend the extra Advantage. So this would logically also apply to a Megascaled T-port that can be done faster/less risky than normal NCM Teleport.

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Y'know... It'd be quite fun to have one of the unfortunate villains destined to be left behind on an asteroid have a good concealment skill and a small bomb. Sure, he gets dropped off deep in space, but when the hero returns to his fellow heroes... BOOOOOOM!!!!!

 

(I must be channeling Bomb Voyage from the Incredibles... Or maybe the Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight... YAH BABY!!!)

[Martin2]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

What is all this about needing to grab the target to teleport them?

 

Power in Champions power book.

 

Aportation, Teleportation 20m usable as an attack, one character, Instant, range 200m End cost 5. Teleports target within 200m up to 20m.

 

Teleportation 20m, UAA (defence is teleportation, extra-dimentional movement or barrier +1 1/4) ranged (+1/2) total cost 55

 

Option to teleport target into outerspace MegaScale (1m = 100km) total cost 85 points.

 

Obviously his power sounds like more megascale but slap on limitations (or change to 1m teleport the mega scale cheat).

 

This sounds like a target 100kg gets sent into space (or to asteroid set as focus point)with a sucessful to hit roll. No grabbing no need to return. Possibly a bit longer for the mega scale.

 

I think we need the exact break down for the teleport power to decide how long it takes.

 

It is up to the GM to say that this power is a definate stop sign and can not be used.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: The Nightmare of Solomon

 

What is all this about needing to grab the target to teleport them?

 

Right here in the OP (bolded below)...

 

They will grab a villain' date=' blind teleport to charted (though not actually secret) asteroids in the galaxy, and leave them stranded there.[/quote']

 

We haven't seen the actual power writeup, but I suspect the hero is using Megascale Teleport (self) with additional Mass, not a Teleport Usable as Attack, perhaps with the original GM having house-ruled away the requirement that the target be willing. But that's just my guess, nothing more.

[Karmakaze]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

First Phase - close in and Grab the target (could fail to hit; target gets casual STR to break free; target may get a later phase to break free; all penalties for Grabbing apply)

 

Second Phase - Megascale T Port (0 OCV, 1/2 DCV, takes full phase - IIRC, Teleport takes an extra phase to use for non-combat movement; I'm assuming that is correct; target can keep trying to escape)

 

Third Phase - POOF - Teleport away - still 0 OCV, 1/2 DCV, but on the asteroid

 

Fourth phase - prepare to 'port back - still 0 OCV, 1/2 DCV, but on the asteroid

 

Fifth phase - 'port back - still 0 OCV, 1/2 DCV, now back in the fray.

 

Since the villain hasn't had his action in all of this, then, assuming he isn't much slower than the hero, doesn't he have a couple of shots (around 3rd and 4th phase) at the hero, maybe even time to Haymaker? If this happens often, I'd expect the hero to get hit at least sometimes (especially at half DCV), and if he gets Stunned, he's got a problem. After all, he's removed the villain from the fight, but he's also taken himself out of range of assistance from his allies.

 

That should give the villain a fighting chance against a tactic like this, without unduly penalizing the hero. Presumably a villain won't kill his only way back home, so it's not life-threatening, but it's a risk the teleporting character will have to consider.

[Christopher]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Option to teleport target into outerspace MegaScale (1m = 100km) total cost 85 points.

How many Stopsigns has this power and this option?

 

From 6E1 I know one good reason against this option:

Movement UAA is limited to combat Speeds. Megascaled movement is considered non-combat speed. So: UAA + Megascale = No Go.

 

Of course i am not a friend of Movement Powers UAA in the first place.... (and I think in 95% of the chases TK is better for the same effect).

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

+2 worth of increased knockback(x16) is enough to put a target out of a fight for at least a couple phases.

[Starcloud]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

The option I like best is the "Rescue" option. It makes the world feel more alive, when the NPCs start taking actions in response to the PCs. Someone goes out and rescues those supervillains from effective imprisionment; it can be their own organization, passing aliens, etc; and then they're back and making trouble.

 

Alternately, those can also be adventure hooks. "Hey, remember that guy you dropped on rock **.**.*? I've heard rumors that someone's making plans to get him back."

 

Sooner or later he's going to run out of asteroids to strand villains on. Many just aren't large enough. And that means revisiting ones he knows, where there are already stranded villains.

 

There's plenty of radiation out there too. That gives an excuse for villains to develop new powers or for robots to go sapient and start making plans...

 

Then there's the "Falling Rocks" scenario. Those asteroids aren't fixed in space. If a villain has energy projection, he can start *moving the asteroid* by blasting at it. Sublimated material jets off into space, and Newton's Law means the asteroid starts moving out of its current orbit...

 

Finally, Teleport, megascale, uaa is not enough points to take an adversary out of the game permanently. It's well within the genre for them to reappear unexpectedly, often at a highly inconvenient time.

 

I'm very much against making a power useless, whether it's by having everything suddenly have defenses against this, or by GM fiat. Much better to mitigate things on the "back end." Sure, the villain is out of the fight, and maybe generic goon robot 5000394939 won't ever show up again, but that doesn't mean a significant villain should be put out of the campaign.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Put a villain in the game in the game with Damage Shield: Transform character with teleportation into character without teleportation.

 

Not being familiar with 6th ed, not sure if that's even feasible anymore.

 

Legal, but incredibly hard to justify.

 

The answer to an abusive build is not 'start making villains that specifically get around it to nerf it'. If you have to create ridiculous, hard-to-justify villain builds just to prevent a PC from destroying the game, don't ... there's no reason to make more work for yourself. The occassional Nemesis villain who thwarts a PCs powers specifically is okay, and in-genre, but if you have to do it every time to maintain a semblance of balance, it's going to get ridiculous.

 

The answer is 'say no'.

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Legal, but incredibly hard to justify.

 

The answer to an abusive build is not 'start making villains that specifically get around it to nerf it'. If you have to create ridiculous, hard-to-justify villain builds just to prevent a PC from destroying the game, don't ... there's no reason to make more work for yourself. The occassional Nemesis villain who thwarts a PCs powers specifically is okay, and in-genre, but if you have to do it every time to maintain a semblance of balance, it's going to get ridiculous.

 

The answer is 'say no'.

 

The other thing is to simply adjust villain tactics to mitigate the effects of the tactic. Giving that villain who got ported last time a few points of extra dex and a point of speed could be a nasty surprise--hero ports over to the villain who he thinks already used his action and tries to grab--only to get slugged/blasted back.

[dmjalund]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Is there a way to make the Megascale teleportation faster/just as fast as other movement powers? What comes to mind are superheroes or cosmic entities bipping and bopping out of combat at rapid speeds.

Buy Desolid linked to the tport with the special effect of being "already gone"