The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

[Martin2]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

He leaves someone on the asteroid and they or someone else finds out and then moves said asteroid out of range of his teleport / dispels the teleport focus / puts invisibility on the asteroid.

 

Or when he turns up to collect his prisoners they are ready for him and his teleport powers are deactivated and they return the favour of leaving him on the rock.

 

Everyone gets a anti-teleport powers.

 

He has a little accident and loses the power / gets it downgraded and he gets to spend the points on a new power.

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Hell no. They're not a murderer (they don't bring along those that need to breathe, are affected by the cold, are affected by the vacuum, are affected by the radiation, etc). If that were the case, i'd definitely have been more critical of the concept.

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Also, since i'm for freedom of concept, and I don't think this power is too abusive with proper challenges to mix things up, i'm going to allow Megascale movement in combat (I *really* hate spelled out restrictions in systems of this nature).

[Balabanto]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

How do I stop this cheap (although logically sound and effective) tactic a PC uses?

 

They will grab a villain, blind teleport to charted (though not actually secret) asteroids in the galaxy, and leave them stranded there. The villains can't die, due to their immunities, but are effectively out of that fight...and the next one...and the one after that...and so forth.

 

It doesn't help that I inherited this group from another, so i'm trying to wrap my head around some of their builds.

 

This is raping the rules. The correct answer to the problem is "If this is how they handle problems, maybe they need a few moral and ethical lessons on how to behave." Try setting them up against opponents who DO die when teleporting out into space. Hit them in their disadvantages instead of just letting them throw you under the bus by abusing the genre conventions.

 

Second: If HE can do it, the GM has infinite points to do it better. The next time he tries this, tell them it fails. They all wear teleportation shields now. 5m Teleportation, 0 END, Persistent, Inherent, Only to Resist -2. Have a good day. Better yet, make it injected, so they can't remove it without killing the victim. He can't teleport them if they don't want to go. Period, and they have to forcibly turn the power off if they want to teleport. In this case, so what. He who abuses the rules makes for his own rules abuse.

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

This is raping the rules. The correct answer to the problem is "If this is how they handle problems' date=' maybe they need a few moral and ethical lessons on how to behave." Try setting them up against opponents who DO die when teleporting out into space. Hit them in their disadvantages instead of just letting them throw you under the bus by abusing the genre conventions.[/quote']

 

They don't teleport those unable to survive in space, and i'm not going to pull a Paladin Trap just so I can say "gotcha!".

[casualplayer]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

They don't teleport those unable to survive in space' date=' and i'm not going to pull a Paladin Trap just so I can say "gotcha!".[/quote']

 

How are they finding out who can survive in space? Superman doesn't look like he can survive in space. Starfire doesn't look like she can survive in space. Shy of having an EVA suit on, how does one look like they can survive in space? Are your players meta-tating over your NPC character sheets when you aren't looking? Detect Life Support, Discriminatory? One crazy specific KS: Superbeings? I mean Mechanon, sure, strand him on an asteroid guilt free but how many other candidates do you have in your game and what identifies them as such?

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

How are they finding out who can survive in space? Superman doesn't look like he can survive in space. Starfire doesn't look like she can survive in space. Shy of having an EVA suit on' date=' how does one look like they can survive in space? Are your players meta-tating over your NPC character sheets when you aren't looking? Detect Life Support, Discriminatory? One crazy specific KS: Superbeings? I mean Mechanon, sure, strand him on an asteroid guilt free but how many other candidates do you have in your game and what identifies them as such?[/quote']

 

The villains are either artificial, or beings that can survive in space, and these are well known facts within the game.

[phoenix240]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Well, the simple solution seems to be use mostly opponents that can't survive in space. And make some that can able to either trap the character out there with them or able to return on their own. The tactic is still useful in some cases but not an 100 percent "I win" button. If they have CAKs they should be careful about using that trick anyone unless they're dead certain about their durability. Even someone thing that looks or is artifical might not be able to take exposure to rigors of deep space for very long.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Nightmare of Solomon

 

How do I stop this cheap (although logically sound and effective) tactic a PC uses?

 

They will grab a villain, blind teleport to charted (though not actually secret) asteroids in the galaxy, and leave them stranded there. The villains can't die, due to their immunities, but are effectively out of that fight...and the next one...and the one after that...and so forth.

 

It doesn't help that I inherited this group from another, so i'm trying to wrap my head around some of their builds.

 

Short version (add politeness and tact as desired):

 

"Sorry, that doesn't fly with me. It's breaking the game, so I'm disallowing it."

[Christopher]

Re: The Nightmare of Solomon

 

They don't teleport those unable to survive in space' date=' and i'm not going to pull a Paladin Trap just so I can say "gotcha!".[/quote']

Right position. Somebody else shoudl read the book regarding "if you don't like a Complication/Power, don't punish the player but talk to him about it".

 

Short version (add politeness and tact as desired):

 

"Sorry, that doesn't fly with me. It's breaking the game, so I'm disallowing it."

This would be my first reaction. Megascale is stop-sign, using it to move enemies also (since it needs UAA in any chase). But Ragitsu seems to be willin to let it fly, he just needs to know how the limits are.

 

When he mostly teleport artificial (non-sentient beings) then the folowigns questions:

- how does he disable them? They tend to be immune to Stun. Even if not, they could easily have a damage shield/triggered attack. How about a booby trap/self destruct when somebody tries to teleport them?

- It's a trap: He can teleport the target normally, but he serves as both a Teleport inhibitor for outgoing ports and beacon for his dozen brothers to megascale port in once there....

[John T]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

GM: "So, after Megaporter teleports all the villains on the planet to the distant reaches of the Galaxy, the campaign ends. Next week, I'll be starting up a steampunk style campaign. Who's in?"

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

GM: "So' date=' after Megaporter teleports all the villains on the planet to the distant reaches of the Galaxy, the campaign ends. Next week, I'll be starting up a steampunk style campaign. Who's in?"[/quote']

 

Yep, he's just now discovering why Star Trek had to introduce 'shields' to offset the 'transporters'. Transporters in a universe without shields become the most powerful weapons around (transport nuke to engine room of un-shielded enemy vessel, poof!).

[phoenix240]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Has this issue come up in play yet or are you trying to head it off at the pass? I think it may be self limiting as long as your group is like Millar's Authority, willing to use lethal tactics at the drop of a hat. Villains without the well known ability to survive in space will have to be dealt with in a more conventional fashion and the occasional surprise (some of the suggestions in this thread) should keep the players on their toes and no complacent about the idea.

 

BTW: Paladin Trap? I'm not familiar with the term.

[phoenix240]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Side question: Can a character take along an unwilling target with Teleportion (or EDM for that matter) by Grabbing them or does the Teleport have to be UAA? I know you can drag someone along with Running, Flight or other movment modes (barrinsg limitations and sfx) but I'm not sure about Teleport.

[John T]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Yep' date=' he's just now discovering why Star Trek had to introduce 'shields' to offset the 'transporters'. Transporters in a universe without shields become the most powerful weapons around (transport nuke to engine room of un-shielded enemy vessel, poof!).[/quote']

Psh, transport crew into space, capture ship intact.

[John T]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Put a villain in the game in the game with Damage Shield: Transform character with teleportation into character without teleportation.

 

Not being familiar with 6th ed, not sure if that's even feasible anymore.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

I think the sauce for the goose. sauce for the gander idea is best.

 

It is obviously a good tactic. It works. Why do other people not do it.

 

When my players began using poison as routine in the fantasy game we played, I told them that their enemies would also be using it as routine. If they decided not to use it then only those enemies who were truly evil would use it. I found that they self-limited that way.

 

If this is such a good tactic then there is going to be some drive for enemies to have someone in their team who can pull the same stunt. If the PC team uses it regularly then so will their opponents. I am not sure how many players want this kind of "I win" tactic used agasinst them, that is worth a discussion.

 

I also have a question about the blind teleport. I presume the player does not know where he is taking the villains when he moves them out. How does he retrieve them? Or are they never retrieved (being all artificial beings)??

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Side question: Can a character take along an unwilling target with Teleportion (or EDM for that matter) by Grabbing them or does the Teleport have to be UAA? I know you can drag someone along with Running' date=' Flight or other movment modes (barrinsg limitations and sfx) but I'm not sure about Teleport.[/quote']

To my best understanding: No.

 

You can do it with the normal movement, but there you need STR to lift the weight and he can fight your movement. Especially moving a target with megascaled movement is a great danger to game balance (just consider the Velocity and thus damage when you throw him into a wall....).

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Many replies to come, but in regards to "Paladin Trap":

 

It's a term I thought of (though i'm likely not the first person to do so), and it basically means any situation in which a GM tries to put a character into an unwinnable or impossible position...possibly with a bit of sadistic glee. Example: a moral choice which would cause a D&D Paladin to "fall", no matter which option is chosen.

 

In this instance, a Paladin Trap would be me making a super-villain that couldn't survive in space (concealing this in a bogus/unfair fashion), that the teleporter takes away, and then is effectively murdered. Not gonna fly.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Many replies to come, but in regards to "Paladin Trap":

 

It's a term I thought of (though i'm likely not the first person to do so), and it basically means any situation in which a GM tries to put a character into an unwinnable or impossible position...possibly with a bit of sadistic glee. Example: a moral choice which would cause a D&D Paladin to "fall", no matter which option is chosen.

 

In this instance, a Paladin Trap would be me making a super-villain that couldn't survive in space (concealing this in a bogus/unfair fashion), that the teleporter takes away, and then is effectively murdered. Not gonna fly.

 

My general interpretation of "Paladin Trap" is that, if there is no 'right' answer, there can be no 'wrong' answer. The Paladin is in a no win situation, so he must make some choice, despite not liking any of his options, and cannot be penalized for making such a choice. I agree that setting up a no win situation for the characters is poor gaming.

 

However, I don't see a varied mix of challenges as being a "paladin trap". It's simply varying the challenges. I also don't see a requirement that the villain in question die. The character Teleports him to the asteroid, then sees him suffering the effects of lack of oxygen, vacuum, etc. as he prepares to teleport back. If he just shrugs and leaves the guy to die, that's a choice he made. I would expect the "hero" to return with the clearly non-immune villain rather than let him die on the asteroid. But this assumes some opposition which will not be automatically known in game to be capable of survival in space.

 

It seems like some of the issue is your game setting in that the characters can be confident that transporting a target to an asteroid is a non-lethal tactic. With only one type of adversary, attack abilities that are focused on that single type of adversary become very effective. Meanwhile, buying an NND whose defense is life support is not productive at all in the game.

 

You also comment:

 

Also' date=' since i'm for freedom of concept, and I don't think this power is too abusive with proper challenges to mix things up, i'm going to allow Megascale movement in combat (I *really* hate spelled out restrictions in systems of this nature).[/quote']

 

Nothing prohibits megascale movement in combat. It imposes significant penalties for doing so. Would you allow a player with non-combat multiples to use these in combat without the associated penalties? Megascale is just a bigger non-combat multiple. I wouldn't say that a -5 DCV penalty or the delayed effect for a Haymaker removes "freedom of concept". It restricts use of the maneuver. [i would, BTW, say that the ruling you can't use a haymaker when there is no drawback to having your DCV reduced is a crock, but that's another thread.]

 

With a 0 OCV, a reduced DCV and a delayed effect, the tactic is much less practical. Just like a delay and a DCV penalty makes the extra 4 DC's (also a possible fight-ender) much less palatable. With the restrictions enforced, I don't see the character's ability to megascale away with an opponent as a game-wrecker, although it is something of a "save or die" ability.

 

The fact that the opponents are so homogenous leads me to ask where they come from. Is there an organization behind them? With the ability to survive in space, laying a trap for the hero at the asteroid seems a very practical alternative, especially if he (and his teammates) are becoming a thorn in the side of this group, and knowing his tactics from prior experience.

 

At the end of the day, I don't think this is a nightmare game breaking ability unless the GM allows it to be one.

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

I was getting the vibe that Megascale was either not allowed in combat, or much slower in combat (oddly enough).

 

However' date=' I don't see a varied mix of challenges as being a "paladin trap".[/quote']

 

Nor do I. The issue is specifically concerning having the teleporter send someone away that would quickly die in space, as a sort of tactic to dissuade over-teleporting.

[Bloodstone]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

You can do it with the normal movement' date=' but there you need STR to lift the weight and he can fight your movement. Especially moving a target with megascaled movement is a great danger to game balance (just consider the Velocity and thus damage when you throw him into a wall....).[/quote']

 

STR only has a little to do with it when it comes to Teleport. If you try it in combat, you need to be able to Grab the opponent, so you should ideally make sure you have enough STR to win the contested rolls. Let us assume, for now, that the character in question IS able to win these rolls. For all we know, this teleporter is also a Brick or Martial Artist.

 

Anyhow...

 

To actually teleport ANY target with you, you need appropriate amounts of Increased Mass. It doesn't matter if you can lift 10 tons, you cannot teleport another target along with you, willing or otherwise, if you don't have an appropriate amount of Increased Mass.

 

Of course, if you DO have enough Increased Mass, you can teleport battleships even if you only have a 10 STR. Willing targets or uncontrolled inanimate objects don't need to be grabbed. You just have to be able to touch them.

 

Technically, Teleporting an unconscious or sleeping target requires UAA Teleport, though I'm pretty sure that any GM that allows you to grab and port targets that are fighting back will allow you to grab and port someone that is asleep.

 

Ultimately, if this is going to be a common stunt for the PC, he's probably better off buying a linked Teleport UAA to make this stunt more plausible.

 

Yes, it's more expensive that way... but then it probably should be considering how many Stop Signs are involved in this concept.

 

In the books, this is a GM Permission required concept. Ragitsu has very clearly expressed his desire to allow the player to use this in his games.

 

So we probably need to focus more on "How I would handle this..." and less on "Just say no!" type advice.

 

As usual, I'm curious to know a bit more about the Teleporter in question...

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Give all the villains Portal guns.

[Christopher]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

I was getting the vibe that Megascale was either not allowed in combat' date=' or much slower in combat (oddly enough).[/quote']

It is allowed in combat (regardless what the others say). But with two full phases at 1/2 DCV (normal NCM penalties) it is just a miserable tactic to beginn with. Double so when you do it while holding a Traget (he has two phases to Stun you or break out).

 

I re-read: The gm has the leeway to allow "Grab and Teleport with you", asuming the extra mass is suficcient. But considering that this is a common tactic (not some fringe use), I think Bloodstones Linked UAA Teleport is the best choice.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

I was getting the vibe that Megascale was either not allowed in combat' date=' or much slower in combat (oddly enough).[/quote']

 

If by "much slower," you mean that it takes an extra phase, then yes, it is, just like any noncombat movement power. And please disregard the following and forgive me if you already know this, but I just wanted to be crystal clear.

 

With Teleport, any Noncombat move, including Megascale, takes an extra phase (see 6E1 300). Now, if you're house-ruling that all characters can move up to their NC movement in the first phase, including Megascale Teleportation, that's your call.

 

FWIW, I agree with avoiding the "Paladin Trap" (nice name for it, BTW). Rather than setting up a situation just to punish the character for "creative" use of a power, I believe in setting up fairly logical consequences for repeated tactics. Kinda an encouragement for the players to change things up a bit and not get stale.

 

I would be interested in knowing how long the hero leaves the bad guy(s) out on the asteroid before going back to retrieve them. Also, what is the procedure for retrieving them? (e.g. after blind teleporting, he memorizes it as a floating location so he can get back, and then when he teleports back a few hours later, he arrives with friends to subdue the lone villian and then teleports the bad guy straight to Stronghold.)