Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

[mayapuppies]

Hello all,

 

I'm working on a concept here for a game world and one of things that I want to implement is that spell-casting is insanely dangerous...literally. Sane people do not go into the spell-casting industry.

 

Magic is so unpredictable and chaotic that any one casting a spell successfully is incredibly lucky. Sure, you may think you know what you're doing, but you really don't. you survived the casting of the spell by sheer luck.

 

To represent this, I want to make all spell-casters to have a form of Luck that has the limitation (Only for spell Side-Effect table rolls) and I was wondering how much you would qualify this for a limitation...I'm thinking -1 or possibly -2.

 

Basically, all spell-casting will require a skill roll at -1 per 5 AP of the spell.

 

The character must then roll on a "Side-Effect" table with the following modifiers, regardless if the spell was cast successfully or not:

 

-1 for every 1 pt they succeed on the skill roll

+1 for every 1 pt they fail on the skill roll

+1 for every 5 AP of the spell

Critical Failure doubles the positive modifiers

Critical Success halves the positive modifiers

 

I want the Luck talent to apply to the die roll on the "Side Effect" table, to help reduce that result.

[Lucius]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

I can buy Deduction for a character with special effect "Lucky Guesser."

 

I can buy Luck for a character with special effect "Chance Favors the Prepared Mind."

 

The difference between "knows what they're doing" and "sheer luck" is a Special Effect. The same mechanics could represent either.

 

 

That said, here's my suggestion: establish an "Everyman Complication" that doubles the effect of everything on your Side Effects table. Allow spellcasters to "buy off" this Vulnerability, in whole or in part; thus, 5 pts makes it only 1.5X effect, and 10 pts reduces it to "only" full effect. If someone without this expenditure casts a spell - say by using a magic item, or maybe got caught in a Side Effect that hits people around the actual spellcaster - they get the "double whammy."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Hunted: Palindromedary

[mayapuppies]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

So this would provide 0 Complication Points as an Everyman Complication, yeah?

 

This way, those who do not become spell-casters don't get free points for it.

[Pizza Man]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

I don't understand...

 

So...you don't want PC spell casters in your world?

Isn't this punishing players for choosing one class? Why not just outlaw the class then?

 

-1 to the skill roll per 5 APs? OK that means spell casters have no other skills. Every point they have is going to be dropped into a power skill: Magic.

and side effects? You didn't say what sort of side effects there would be. But the pluses/penalties to the side effect table roll is rather ominous.

 

If you consider magic unbalancing, make it a low magic world...Or outlaw the class from the get-go.

I like playing mages, but when "any one casting a spell successfully is incredibly lucky." its no fun if I can't even do my job.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

This applies to NPC and PC spell-casters alike. The idea is not to outlaw it, but to make it a testy proposition.

 

This has nothing to do with my opinions on spell-casters at all, but a mechanic of the game world I'm working on. There will be plenty of avenues for those who like "spell-casters" to take without actually casting spells.

 

My "vision" of the game world does not have PC spell-casters. Spell-casters (in this world) are quite frankly, insane. Completely off their rockers and as much a danger to themselves as to anyone around them. Very similar in demeanor to Warhammer Fantasy goblins.

 

Not every fantasy setting has to have spell-casters or mages, the entire Sword and Sorcery genre has precious few of them and that revolves around ritual magic and is predominantly the realm of the villain. This will follow in that trope.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

(Note: speaking from a 5th frame of reference here, so adjust accordingly)

Seems to me this is a perfect use for the RSR option based on Luck "Requires Luck Roll?", possibly in a compound RSR also requiring a successful KS.

To successfully cast a spell, you'd HAVE to have luck, or you'd automatically trigger the side effects and fail even if you had the skill.

[Steve]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

If you used Luck levels as part of the RSR limitation, I suppose you could also buy a limited form of Luck that only applies to using magic. It would rate a -1.5 or maybe even higher IMHO.

 

If you set it at -1.5, then they are equal in cost to 2-point levels. Doing that and buying 5+ dice gives a fair chance of getting enough levels of luck to have the magic work.

[Stormraven]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

Let's see - in the first sentence, you say 'this applies to NPC and PC spell-casters alike', then in your vision statement, you say your vision is that the world doesn't have any PC spell-casters.

 

So just say 'No PC spell-casters, because trying to cast magic is the definition of insanity in this world, and I won't allow insane PCs.'

 

Job done. You can rule for the NPCs however you want.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

Let's see - in the first sentence' date=' you say 'this applies to NPC and PC spell-casters alike', then in your vision statement, you say your vision is that the world doesn't [b']have[/b] any PC spell-casters.

 

So just say 'No PC spell-casters, because trying to cast magic is the definition of insanity in this world, and I won't allow insane PCs.'

 

Job done. You can rule for the NPCs however you want.

Well, in my own home campaigns, this will be the case.

 

However, since this may get published, I can guarantee that a GM and group of players somewhere in the world, will want to play spell-casters or allow them as PC's. So, to be as thorough a designer as I can, I want to make sure that the mechanics are there and worked out to allow them that possibility.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

(Note: speaking from a 5th frame of reference here, so adjust accordingly)

Seems to me this is a perfect use for the RSR option based on Luck "Requires Luck Roll?", possibly in a compound RSR also requiring a successful KS.

To successfully cast a spell, you'd HAVE to have luck, or you'd automatically trigger the side effects and fail even if you had the skill.

 

If you used Luck levels as part of the RSR limitation, I suppose you could also buy a limited form of Luck that only applies to using magic. It would rate a -1.5 or maybe even higher IMHO.

 

If you set it at -1.5, then they are equal in cost to 2-point levels. Doing that and buying 5+ dice gives a fair chance of getting enough levels of luck to have the magic work.

The concept is still gestating in my brainbone, but I'm seeing the disallowing of Skill Levels for casting spells. They can only rely on the "Spell Casting" skill itself to cast the spell (modified by the -1 per 5 AP). This will insure the "luck" factor for the actual casting of the spell.

 

The roll on the side effect table happens, regardless of the success or failure of the spell. The luck roll modifies the severity of the roll on the side effect table, as does the amount the skill roll is succeeded by or failed by.

 

The side effect table ranges from "Oh look a the pretty colors" to "OMG! You killed everything in a 10 mile radius!".

 

Every result on the Side Effect table would be built with Hero System mechanics as if each were a separate power, then it will be organized by AP to represent power scale and to further the chaotic nature of the result.

 

The game world will be written up with a very heavy "wizards are teh ebil" background, the trick is to separate the traditional view of "wizards" from this. I think everyone should be familiar with the terms "Wild Magic" or "Chaos Magic", yeah? Well, imagine if all magic was like that but on steroids...where it is actually, completely unpredictable, instead of just being slightly random on the scale of minor irritation that is standard in most other "wild magic" write-ups.

 

In fact, I may simply allow spells to be automagically cast and just use the RSR as a method to adjust the Side Effect Table roll, or perhaps just the AP of the spell as the modifier to the roll...hmmm

[mayapuppies]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

If you're on Facebook, there is a side discussion about this in our D3 Games group that may help folks understand the underlying concepts.

 

Link is in my sig below.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

Some more info on the setting I'm working on (please remember this is VERY VERY rough and could change at any moment):

 

The world, such as it is, is a flat irregularly shaped firmament of earth and rock. This rocky pancake floats in the center of a sphere of impure elements and mixed ideology.

 

The further one gets from the center of this world, the less structure it maintains and the less reality has hold. So-called laws of physics begin to break down, nature no longer adhere's to the laws of natural selection and evolution.

 

This sphere of impurity is known as "Reality" and it is the meeting point of the 4 perfect elements and the opposed ideologies of Paradise and Abyss. These form another sphere around Reality. With the elements circumnavigating the equator and Paradise and Abyss at the poles. Each of these represent a slice of the sphere and where these slices come to a point a the sphere's center, is where Reality is formed.

 

The barriers between the 4 elements are impenetrable and serve to keep the elements purity. Whereas the barriers between the elements and the twin ideologies are marred, allowing transference between them. Where they all converge on Reality, the barriers cease to function and the elements and the ideologies are free to intermingle and corrupt each other.

 

The elements are of equal power and pull upon reality with the same force and thus maintain equilibrium. But due to events in the past, Abyss has become the stronger of the two ideologies and pulls reality towards it, away from Paradise. This force acts as a form of gravity both physical and spiritual that drags the residents of Reality towards the bottom of Reality...to what is called the Underworld.

 

This corruption of Reality is due to the unnatural act of controlling the cosmos, of attempting to manipulate the infinite powers of the 4 elements and twin ideologies. Wizards have wreaked havoc upon Reality and doomed it to a slow, rotting death.

 

Many have tried to find a solution, but this research has only been able to rename Paradise and Abyss among the scholars to Stasis and Entropy. It has been discovered that when a mage attempts to cast a spell, they are tapping only Entropy, despite what they have been told by their Masters.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

Discussion of the setting has taken off in teh Facebook group for D3 Games, if you're interested in following or participating.

[Starcloud]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

I'd handle it the way Kazei 5 handles Esper powers. Side effect, inherent to all spells, activates 11- or whatever. That way the power is reliable, but the side effects might discourage spellcasting anyway. Also, the level of side effect goes UP depending on the active points in the spell being cast.

[Lucius]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

So this would provide 0 Complication Points as an Everyman Complication, yeah?

 

This way, those who do not become spell-casters don't get free points for it.

 

Yeah.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Bought off the Everyman "No Palindromedary" Complication

[mayapuppies]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

I'd handle it the way Kazei 5 handles Esper powers. Side effect' date=' inherent to all spells, activates 11- or whatever. That way the power is reliable, but the side effects might discourage spellcasting anyway. Also, the level of side effect goes UP depending on the active points in the spell being cast.[/quote']

This is the way I'm currently considering it, except that the side effect table always happens, 100% of the time. The severity of the side effect depends on the power of the spell and the luck of the wizard.

 

This goes against the initial concept of chaos/luck completely, however. My goal was to have a system where the wizard is essentially crossing his fingers in the hope that the spell goes off and that he doesn't die or get permanently mangled from the side effects. It was never meant for PC's so I'm not considering players at all for this concept. I'm only writing it up for completeness and to make it accessible to those crazed GMs/Players that want to allow PC's to use it.

 

Essentially, this was not designed to be a magic system that any rational person would choose. Spell-casting is stupidly dangerous and I wanted to model the mechanics in such a way that they accurately reflect how I envisioned the magic system to operate, essentially toddlers playing with handguns, firecrackers, biological/chemical weapons and fire hoses (what could possibly go wrong?).

 

So basically I have two concepts, both of which, the Side Effect Table comes into play automatically whether the spell is successfully cast or not. The original concept, still relies on the spell-caster to roll dice and thus has the element of chaos/luck in it. The second concept, turns it into a guaranteed spell casting and side effect, where the luck factor is only in how powerful the side effect will be.

 

I still have a lot of time to look this over, run some playtests and see how it all works out, but I absolutely appreciate all of the feedback I've received so far.

[Steve]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

One question I have is more conceptual. Do you want the player or the character to regard a spell going off without it blowing up in their face as a lucky thing?

 

If it's the player, using Luck is the way to go. Every spell is built with Side Effect at the maximum limitation level and always occurring. Luck dice are rolled, and for every point of Luck that comes up, the Side Effect is lessened by one level. If I'm remembering the chart right, if 5 levels come up, then no Side Effect occurs.

 

If it's the character, you can use Luck as I described above, but I would suggest using Heroic Action Points instead. That gives the player some control, and they can lessen or negate bad things happening for a spell or two.

 

If you use Luck or HAPs in this way, it gives a nice way of handling when bad things happen without more complicated character builds for spellcasters.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

One question I have is more conceptual. Do you want the player or the character to regard a spell going off without it blowing up in their face as a lucky thing?

Both. Keep in mind, spell-casters are insane villains in this setting, so this isn't designed conceptually as a system for PC's.

 

If it's the player, using Luck is the way to go. Every spell is built with Side Effect at the maximum limitation level and always occurring. Luck dice are rolled, and for every point of Luck that comes up, the Side Effect is lessened by one level. If I'm remembering the chart right, if 5 levels come up, then no Side Effect occurs.

 

If it's the character, you can use Luck as I described above, but I would suggest using Heroic Action Points instead. That gives the player some control, and they can lessen or negate bad things happening for a spell or two.

 

If you use Luck or HAPs in this way, it gives a nice way of handling when bad things happen without more complicated character builds for spellcasters.

What I don't want to do is remove the side effect completely, no matter how lucky. The side effect table will have results ranging from silly and annoying to immensely dangerous, but there will always be a side effect.

 

As for the HAP one, that takes away the random element that I am looking for and allowing the player to have direct control of the result modification.

[Steve]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

Okay, if you want something to happen all the time, let me modify my suggestion. You can cap the Luck dice effect at a certain maximum (let's say 3 levels of effect). That still shows luck having an effect, but it still lets bad things happen.

 

Regarding bad things, one thought I had would be to borrow a concept from Call of Cthulhu: magic causes insanity. The sheer chaos inherent in magic ravages the mind of the spellcaster, so eventually every one of them becomes a raging psychotic if they don't blow themselves up first. On your chart of bad effects you could have a Transformation effect that shows the growing insanity. Maybe there are also potions that can stave it off, but not perfectly.

 

If your effects chart is constructed on a 3d6 bell curve, levels of luck rolled could also allow shifts up or down on the categories of the chart.

[Mister E]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

Magic is the magician's validation.

 

If there is magic, then the magician is sane/coherent about at least one thing: magic.

 

Would you call this a Faith-based magic system?

[mayapuppies]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

Okay, if you want something to happen all the time, let me modify my suggestion. You can cap the Luck dice effect at a certain maximum (let's say 3 levels of effect). That still shows luck having an effect, but it still lets bad things happen.

 

Regarding bad things, one thought I had would be to borrow a concept from Call of Cthulhu: magic causes insanity. The sheer chaos inherent in magic ravages the mind of the spellcaster, so eventually every one of them becomes a raging psychotic if they don't blow themselves up first. On your chart of bad effects you could have a Transformation effect that shows the growing insanity. Maybe there are also potions that can stave it off, but not perfectly.

 

If your effects chart is constructed on a 3d6 bell curve, levels of luck rolled could also allow shifts up or down on the categories of the chart.

Interesting idea. I'll have to work this out and see how it would work.

 

My intent was for the table to be linear, with more powerful effects at the top. Probably d66 style die mechanic.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

Magic is the magician's validation.

 

If there is magic, then the magician is sane/coherent about at least one thing: magic.

 

Would you call this a Faith-based magic system?

Not exactly. The mages need to be insane to even consider pursuing this career.

[Mister E]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

Not exactly. The mages need to be insane to even consider pursuing this career.

 

The pursuit of magic is itself an insanity? Magic-mania?

 

Sounds to me like a manifestation of gambler's-addiction.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

The pursuit of magic is itself an insanity? Magic-mania?

 

Sounds to me like a manifestation of gambler's-addiction.

On steroids. It's the same kind of craziness that would be found among those people who would worship a god that intends to destroy the world.

[Steve]

Re: Spell Casters are Lucky, not Skilled

 

Another possible way you could do magic side effects is that it causes an unluck backlash when magic is cast due to chaos being unleashed into the world.

 

One way to portray this would be to assign every spell an automatic amount of unluck that occurs. When you get to 5-6 levels you are generally attracting meteor strikes on the town you are in. Luck could be rolled to offset the unluck effect, but it can't eliminate it entirely (minimum of 1 level). You could then have a chart for each level of spell-induced unluck the spellcaster has to deal with, so two levels of net unluck would roll on its own chart of effects, etc.