bigbywolfe Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... ...until you run into the guy 2 SPD above the average. In which case he goes before you regardless of your DEX anyway. If anything you're point helps the argument that the "initiative" aspect of DEX is not as amazing and important as some people insist... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... I don't think we are debating whether DEX is more important than SPD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... No, but in discussing why DEX is more than all the 1-point characteristics the "you get to go first" argument is one that I see thrown front and center almost every time. My point is that there are other ways to go first, thus the "First Strike" argument is only partly true and really over-estimates the importance/value of that particular aspect of DEX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... At which point, how much does your higher DEX help you when the other guy still has one more phase than you do? I'd rather have SPD 6 and DEX 10 than SPD 4 and DEX 20. In which case he goes before you regardless of your DEX anyway. If anything you're point helps the argument that the "initiative" aspect of DEX is not as amazing and important as some people insist... In fairness, SPD 2 or SPD 12, the guy with DEX 21 will still act before the guy with DEX 20 on Phase 12, as combat starts. I don't deny that this provides an advantage. However, if you have a 30 DEX and I have a 5 DEX, I submit that I can find a number of ways to spend the 50 differential points that will overcome the advantage of a first strike. +20 STUN (10 points) and +10 CON (10 points) should be plenty to survive your first attack. +3 SPD, or + 3 DC's and +3 OCV, or +6 5 point levels (allowing me to choose between OCV, DCV and DC's) all seem like 30 points of substantial advantages over your single first strike. The DEX roll and first strike are advantageous. So are INT rolls and PER rolls. So are PRE rolls, PRE attacks and PRE defense. In all honesty, however, I'm not certain the best answer isn't that INT and PRE should cost 2 points each, and DEX should stay as is. That would make skill levels a bit more reasonably priced ("Stat only for a single roll at a time" seems like it should be a significant limitation, more than -1/4 or -1/2). If we set "+1 to all CHAR rolls" at 5 points, +1 to 1 roll at a time at 4 points and +1 to one of a subset of those rolls at a time at 3 points, we could price +5 to the stat for only the ancillary benefits at 5 points as well. Note that this would exclude PER from INT rolls (so 5 points for +1 to all INT and Skill rolls OR all PER rolls). PRE still looks pretty rich, so I'd be inclined to move PRE defense to EGO only. We could then make EGO rolls +2 for 5 points and resistance to PRE and Mental attacks +10 for 5 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... First Move: Lightning Reflexes (+21 DEX to act first with All Actions) (21 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/4), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2) Real Cost 6 END Cost 4 Lucius Alexander One fast palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... At which point, how much does your higher DEX help you when the other guy still has one more phase than you do? I'd rather have SPD 6 and DEX 10 than SPD 4 and DEX 20. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary thinks the DEX are stacked My High Dex allows me to go before him on Phase 12. And other speeds have more phases that sync up, allowing my high dex to still make a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... No' date=' but in discussing why DEX is more than all the 1-point characteristics the "you get to go first" argument is one that I see thrown front and center almost every time. My point is that there are other ways to go first, thus the "First Strike" argument is only partly true and really over-estimates the importance/value of that particular aspect of DEX.[/quote'] The SPD argument that you put forth ignores that there are Segments that more than one SPEED have a phase on (ie SPD 5 vs SPD 6 go together on seg 10, and 12). Also in many Heroic Campaigns most PCs are either SPD 3 or 4 with most clustered at SPD 3. In most Champions games (ie assuming CU or similar) most PC's are at SPD 5 as are most NPCs. In those cases the PC's with the higher DEX gets to go first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Higher Speed, more pain missing phases while you're waiting for that post-12 to wake up again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... The SPD argument that you put forth ignores that there are Segments that more than one SPEED have a phase on (ie SPD 5 vs SPD 6 go together on seg 10' date=' and 12). Also in many Heroic Campaigns most PCs are either SPD 3 or 4 with most clustered at SPD 3. In most Champions games (ie assuming CU or similar) most PC's are at SPD 5 as are most NPCs. In those cases the PC's with the higher DEX gets to go first.[/quote'] Your counterargument ignores that the higher SPD has phases the lower SPD does not have AT ALL So the trade off is, I get a few phases where we both act but you act first, including admittedly that very first phase - but I get phases where I act but you don't act at all? I'll take that deal. I'd still rather have SPD 6, DEX 10 than SPD 4, DEX 20. Lucius Alexander As long as I get a palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... can one dlay segments of SPD as one can delay DEX order? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Yes. In all versions of the rules. Used it for teamwork myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... can one dlay segments of SPD as one can delay DEX order? Yes. See, "Holding An Action" (6e2 20). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... True. Many people who harp on the how DEX is so important because of the ability to go first completely overlook the fact that being even 1 SPD above average already does that. ...until you run into the guy 2 SPD above the average. Asuming there is a upper limit for SPD, there may simply be no way for the other guy to go first via SPD - because he can't have more than me. Also, you misinterpret frist strike and first act. A first strike does some damage and may stun the target. Acting first, can also mean to make any retaliaton impossible: Icesheet Jedi-shove Teleport Move behind cover/out of reach Barrier Desolidification Flash When any of those (or similar ones) are used as first action, you can't even bring any of those 30 points you invested differently to bear. About holding an action: Another good reason for higher DEX. When you plan to intercept an enemies action, you have to make a dex roll to take you action before his. High Def or High DCV+DEX: When you have high defenses, you don't need to to avoid that AOE attack. Area of effect counts for for DC calculation so when X Defense is enough to take a 12 DC Blast, it will be way enough to take a 12 DC blast, Area of Effect (+1/2). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... can one dlay segments of SPD as one can delay DEX order? Yes. ie Fury has a phase on segment 5. She delays her phase till Mr Frantic's Phase on Segment 6. She can hold her phase till she hits a segment that she gets another phase. Then she loses the Delay (though with GM's permission she could take her delay during that Segment to have a phase at an earlier dex, she only gets one phase in a segment though). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Asuming there is a upper limit for SPD, there may simply be no way for the other guy to go first via SPD - because he can't have more than me. Also, you misinterpret frist strike and first act. A first strike does some damage and may stun the target. Acting first, can also mean to make any retaliaton impossible: Icesheet Jedi-shove Teleport Move behind cover/out of reach Barrier Desolidification Flash When any of those (or similar ones) are used as first action, you can't even bring any of those 30 points you invested differently to bear. About holding an action: Another good reason for higher DEX. When you plan to intercept an enemies action, you have to make a dex roll to take you action before his. High Def or High DCV+DEX: When you have high defenses, you don't need to to avoid that AOE attack. Area of effect counts for for DC calculation so when X Defense is enough to take a 12 DC Blast, it will be way enough to take a 12 DC blast, Area of Effect (+1/2). Every possible action has a counter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Every possible action has a counter. But only those who have a action before the enemy can counter it. When Mr. Superfly is currently walking and somebody makes the ground into a Icesheet and he trips, he needs to stand up before he can fly (unless he has "Position Shift" adder). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... I disagree. Whether or not he can fly depends first on his SFX for flying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... I disagree. Whether or not he can fly depends first on his SFX for flying. Nope. When you are tripped you have to invest a half phase standing up first, before you can move. The same way when you where flying when "tripped" you need a half phase to balance yourself again. The only exception to this are using Breakfall or having a "unusual movement power" with Position Shift Adder. Just having a flight power, does not makes you immune to being tripped/having to stand up first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... And here is the rule for what I said: "If characters with unusual Movement Powers (such as Flight or Teleportation) are knocked to the ground, they cannot use those Powers to stand up as a Zero Phase Action unless they have paid for the Position Shift Adder (see below)." - 6E1 157, "Other Rules" (regardign movement powers). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... 6th Ed answers are invalid to me. Thank you for playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... 6th Ed answers are invalid to me. Thank you for playing.Then why ask the question with "6th Edition" in the title? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... What question did I ask? I read the board. Questions and builds are not limited by rules edition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Asuming there is a upper limit for SPD, there may simply be no way for the other guy to go first via SPD - because he can't have more than me. Also, you misinterpret frist strike and first act. A first strike does some damage and may stun the target. Acting first, can also mean to make any retaliaton impossible: Icesheet Jedi-shove Teleport Move behind cover/out of reach Barrier Desolidification Flash When any of those (or similar ones) are used as first action, you can't even bring any of those 30 points you invested differently to bear. OK, let's look at these... Icesheet does not make retaliation impossible. It imposes a slight delay. If I have a higher SPD, I can use [ph 12] a half phase to right myself, half phase to move, [my next phase] a half phase for any other action and attack before you get another move. Desolid? Depends on other factors. Teleport - oh boy, you got away. Flash? Some of those extra points could certainly go to an enhanced sense or some flash defense if that's a concern. BTW, a character with lower DEX could abort to dive for cover (out of reach), Desolid or barrier, and potentially to Teleport away as a defensive action. Similar for Jedi Shove, move behind cover (I have three half moves to close and still attack) A lot depends on what you're trying to accomplish. If the hero goes desolid, dives behind cover or T Ports away, the villain can grab what he came here to take and make his escape. Who says he's hung up on KO'ing you? Barrier gives me an attack to take down the barrier and another to attack you. Ultimately, if any of your suggested first moves will effectively end the battle, they will do the same after your opponent gets a single move as well. If I really want to go first, instead of DEX (30 points to get from 8 to 23; 50 to get to 33 and stand a good chance of going first), maybe I should invest in PRE - an extra 6 - 10d6 PRE attack, which can be performed at any time, should cause a lot of those high DEX types to hesitate, and probably costs a few of them their phase entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... 6th Ed answers are invalid to me. Thank you for playing. pretty sure it was the same in 5E. You couldn't use flight to negate the 1/2 phase needed to stand from prone unless it had Position Shift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it... Rules are guidelines. Dramatic and cinematic trumps rules. If Iron Man wants to scrape his armor taking off from a prone position, you going to tell him the rules won't allow it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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