What defines a Superhuman?

[RexMundi]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

In my mainstream 6e setting, there is a distinctive difference between Superhero, and Super-Human. That being said my game also clearly defines that, in a lot of pages, heh, but it does boil down to the difference between, Can a Human potentially DO THIS (Fly by force of Will for example), if not, then Super Human. Powers Beyond that of mortal man. Seems pretty clear cut.

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

In my mainstream 6e setting, there is a distinctive difference between Superhero, and Super-Human. That being said my game also clearly defines that, in a lot of pages, heh, but it does boil down to the difference between, Can a Human potentially DO THIS (Fly by force of Will for example), if not, then Super Human. Powers Beyond that of mortal man. Seems pretty clear cut.

 

~Rex

Captain America can't fly, but he can do a lot of other stuff no normal human could do. In fact he can do a lot of stuff he could not do before getting the serum.

 

It depends a lot where you define "that is somethign a human can do" with characterstics.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Captain America can't fly, but he can do a lot of other stuff no normal human could do. In fact he can do a lot of stuff he could not do before getting the serum.

 

It depends a lot where you define "that is somethign a human can do" with characterstics.

 

Cap is a special case.

 

There is no single thing he can do that can't be done by some 'normal' human somewhere. What's exceptional about Cap is the combination of all the different things he can do in one package. He got the ultimate athlete body without the workout. The Super-Soldier Serum boils down to just Steroids & HGH without any side effects.

[Christopher]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

There is no single thing he can do that can't be done by some 'normal' human somewhere. What's exceptional about Cap is the combination of all the different things he can do in one package. He got the ultimate athlete body without the workout. The Super-Soldier Serum boils down to just Steroids & HGH without any side effects.

So no normal human could be that good at all of that? Sounds like he has something that no normal human could do - ergo, superhuman

[Orion]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

If it could theoretically be done by a person in the real world, they are not superhuman. Doesn't matter how unlikely, just if it is possible or not. The character could be Einstein, Edison, Jim Thorpe, and Casanova rolled into one, but he's still just a normal human. If it can be done by training or learning, it isn't superhuman. I also don't consider any cyborgs to be super.

 

For any campaign I run, there are set characteristic limit for human potential. Anything over that is automatically super/meta/para, and requires justification in the character history. Having inherent powers, regardless of the value or utility, makes one a superhuman, and suspect by certain authorities and by Genocide.

 

As for superhero, I never use this term in game. You are either a hero, or not. Super does not matter at this point. It's what you did, not how it was done, that's important.

[Christopher]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

If it could theoretically be done by a person in the real world' date=' they are not superhuman. Doesn't matter how unlikely, just if it is possible or not. The character could be Einstein, Edison, Jim Thorpe, and Casanova rolled into one, but he's still just a normal human. If it can be done by training or learning, it isn't superhuman. I also don't consider any cyborgs to be super.[/quote']

But no human could be all of this and don't even require use/extensive traning to maintan it.

 

The seperate skills he has aren't superhuman - but having all of them at that level, the sheer density of skills, is simply more than any human could be possible to pull of with such an ease (that he still has time to go out, fight the evil and have a personal life).

[Enforcer84]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

In the Junior Superheroes discussion thread, a debate has arisen about just what constitutes a superhuman. Some folks are arguing that any character built on fewer points than the guidelines in the rulebook isn't superhuman, despite the possession of powers that ordinary humans can't possess. Others (myself included) argue that point total doesn't matter. You could (theoretically) build a 300-point cab driver without any super-abilities whatsoever. He might be the world's smartest, strongest, quickest ex-Navy Seal cabdriver with multiple degrees in science, medicine, and philosophy, but without any ability that any other "normal" person can possess for an outlay of the correct number of points and GM's permission.

 

What do you say? What defines "superhuman"?

 

Me. If I say it it's true. I'm very clever.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

So no normal human could be that good at all of that? Sounds like he has something that no normal human could do - ergo' date=' superhuman [/quote']

 

I didn't say no normal human couldn't do the same things. They just have to spend a lot more time and resources on achieving it (Bruce Wayne/Batman).

[Enforcer84]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

I didn't say no normal human couldn't do the same things. They just have to spend a lot more time and resources on achieving it (Bruce Wayne/Batman).

 

I'd posit that no normal human could do that. But genre being what it is I let it slide.

[RexMundi]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Genre is an important thing, so is Scale. However, plenty of real examples of Superhuman out there in the real world, they even get their own TV shows nowadays. Your typical SEAL or Ranger is Superhuman compared to the guy stocking shelves in the grocery store.

 

Captain America comes up a lot when folks want to argue Superhuman or not. Cap's my favorite comic character, been collecting his stuff since I was 8 and got my first batch of my own cash in hand. He's Everything, the Best of Human could ever hope to peak at potential wise, if everything were perfect, rolled into one package. Sure he has the Super Soldier Serum shortcut, and actually has had, Super Human Ability (notably in Endurance for the most part, and at times, strength). What he doesn't have, is Super Powers. Being the Pinnacle of Human Perfection is not a Super Power in the face of oh, The Hulk, or Thor let's say. Can he do things no Mere peon human can do, sure he can....

 

But he also gets thumped on quite often by people that are almost as good at any two or three things he can do if not better in some respects. his Over all combo is more then impressive, and the skill package even more so, but he's not Super Powered. On the cusp of, as close as you can get to it without going over. Right on that 30, instead of a 31, (which mean much like the comics, he can "push" into the super human ranges). But he wouldn't in a comic be considered Superhuman anymore then Batman is.

 

Also, just because there hasn't been anyone yet that we know of in the world that combines all the attributes of Jim Thorpe, Einstein, Bruce Lee, etc etc etc into one Fighting All American Package.....it doesn't mean it's not possible (or hasn't been done and just not showcased under a spotlight). The Bar of Possible gets moved up on a daily basis.

 

So, no. Cap would not be Superhuman. A Super Human? Sure. That thin line is very important in my game and it takes into account a lot of comic history to get to it.

 

~Rex

[Tasha]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

If it could theoretically be done by a person in the real world, they are not superhuman. Doesn't matter how unlikely, just if it is possible or not. The character could be Einstein, Edison, Jim Thorpe, and Casanova rolled into one, but he's still just a normal human. If it can be done by training or learning, it isn't superhuman. I also don't consider any cyborgs to be super.

 

For any campaign I run, there are set characteristic limit for human potential. Anything over that is automatically super/meta/para, and requires justification in the character history. Having inherent powers, regardless of the value or utility, makes one a superhuman, and suspect by certain authorities and by Genocide.

 

As for superhero, I never use this term in game. You are either a hero, or not. Super does not matter at this point. It's what you did, not how it was done, that's important.

 

Yes having Hawking or Einstein level intelligence is possible for a human. There are humans that have very high strength, you can do this for every stat. What makes someone like Batman superhuman is that he has better than human abilities with many many stats. He's stronger, faster, Much more intelligent etc. A normal human can really only focus on a few things. You don't see many superstong guys IRL also with an advanced degree in Physics. That's because they focus on their strength to the detriment of their intelligence/ schooling.

 

It's really quite the let down that so many people don't allow the "Extremely well trained, but otherwise normal guy" archetype. Well you do, but you hamstring them with unreasonable stat caps. So one can't play a super high dex Batman, Doc Savage or heck even the Black Mask (Superheroic Martial Artist).

[Tasha]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Cap is a special case.

 

There is no single thing he can do that can't be done by some 'normal' human somewhere. What's exceptional about Cap is the combination of all the different things he can do in one package. He got the ultimate athlete body without the workout. The Super-Soldier Serum boils down to just Steroids & HGH without any side effects.

 

I find myself disagreeing with this. I doubt that anyone could do what he does with the shield (ie bouncing it off of multiple targets and always catching it when it returns)

 

The superserium did more than make him stronger and larger and able to heal faster (what a combo of HGH and Steroids would do). I am very sure that it also amped up his reflexes to superhuman levels.

[RexMundi]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Even his reflexes aren't Superhuman. Again, Pinnacle of Perfection for a Human but he doesn't ever do anything these guys don't do.

 

About 2/3rds of the way through this link you get to wall bouncing stuff......

 

http://www.stupidvideos.com/video/just_plain_stupid/Juggling_Gymnastics_Skateboarding/

 

Lota fun "super" accuracy etc etc .....

 

 

~Rex

[Tasha]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

I didn't see him hitting 4 targets while dodging bullets and catching his cards... If you can show me someone who can do that I might see Capt America as pinnacle guy. The thing is that the Super serum made him something better than human. Heck he's even had stories where the serium wears out and he starts to slow down to more human speeds.

[Orion]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Yes having Hawking or Einstein level intelligence is possible for a human. There are humans that have very high strength' date=' you can do this for every stat. What makes someone like Batman superhuman is that he has better than human abilities with many many stats. He's stronger, faster, Much more intelligent etc. A normal human can really only focus on a few things. You don't see many superstong guys IRL also with an advanced degree in Physics. That's because they focus on their strength to the detriment of their intelligence/ schooling.[/quote']

 

You see Batman differently than I do - maybe we've just read different issues. I never saw him as being that much stronger or more intelligent than the norm, for example. He's very highly trained. Smart, maybe even genius level, but not a 200 IQ. Has a ton of skills. Maybe his ability to put up with annoying teen sidekicks is superhuman, but I don't see anything else. I would say that much of what Batman does is because it's his book, and main characters always get excess handwavium and miracles, not because he is superhumanly strong or smart. The writers not letting anyone shoot him does not mean he is superhumanly fast or evasive, it just means they can't afford to kill him.

 

While an Einstein/Thorpe combo is highly unlikely, I would not say impossible, and thus not superhuman to my way of thinking. People are that smart and that athletic, even if only once per hundred years. Maybe once a millenium there is someone that is both, and can compose music like Mozart as well. Being at the absolute potential of humanity just makes you the best human, not superhuman.

 

It's really quite the let down that so many people don't allow the "Extremely well trained' date=' but otherwise normal guy" archetype. Well you do, but you hamstring them with unreasonable stat caps. So one can't play a super high dex Batman, Doc Savage or heck even the Black Mask (Superheroic Martial Artist).[/quote']

 

By my definition, super high stats is the same thing as saying superhuman. The human body can only do so much. If the character needs to do more, then it must be more than human. Whether either type of character is a good fit for a given campaign is a different matter.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

The only real "issue" with labeling anyone with an ability normal humans don't or can't have as "superhuman", as I see it, is that it can become a meaningless label by being applied too broadly. A guy whose only superpower is IR vision is "superhuman". So, for that matter, would be someone with the power of a Galaxar(hundreds of points in a VPP, ludicrous stats, thousands of total points). Now that "superhuman" has been diluted by applying it to both extremes, how do you distinguish between them, in order to have a set of labels that's actually useful?

[Lucius]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

The only real "issue" with labeling anyone with an ability normal humans don't or can't have as "superhuman"' date=' as I see it, is that it can become a meaningless label by being applied too broadly. A guy whose only superpower is IR vision is "superhuman". So, for that matter, would be someone with the power of a Galaxar(hundreds of points in a VPP, ludicrous stats, thousands of total points). Now that "superhuman" has been diluted by applying it to both extremes, how do you distinguish between them, in order to have a set of labels that's actually useful?[/quote']

 

That's not an artifact of setting the superhuman bar too low. That's just a consequence of having only the one bar. WHEREVER you draw the line between what you consider "superhuman" and "not so super, human" it can only distinguish between over and under that line. If you want to distinguish between several different grades of power, you need a larger set of terms.

 

But I can't tell you how to construct a set of labels that's actually useful to you, because I have no idea what you intend to use them for. What's useful for me might not be useful for you.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I find the palindromedary superlatively useful for example, but not many other people seem to get much use out of them.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

The only real "issue" with labeling anyone with an ability normal humans don't or can't have as "superhuman"' date=' as I see it, is that it can become a meaningless label by being applied too broadly. A guy whose only superpower is IR vision is "superhuman". So, for that matter, would be someone with the power of a Galaxar(hundreds of points in a VPP, ludicrous stats, thousands of total points). Now that "superhuman" has been diluted by applying it to both extremes, how do you distinguish between them, in order to have a set of labels that's actually useful?[/quote']

 

Most super-universes that care about such thing tend to apply a scale of some sort to them. Marvel has an Alpha to Omega scale, IIRC; 5e's UNTIL Superpowers Database had an undefined 'Martinez Scale' entry on every picture, which looked to be a 1-10 scale. I would presume Infrared Vision Man would be a 1 on the Martinez scale (or an Alpha level super in Marvel's system), while the Galaxar would be a 10 (or an Omega).

[megaplayboy]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

Most super-universes that care about such thing tend to apply a scale of some sort to them. Marvel has an Alpha to Omega scale' date=' IIRC; 5e's UNTIL Superpowers Database had an undefined 'Martinez Scale' entry on every picture, which looked to be a 1-10 scale. I would presume Infrared Vision Man would be a 1 on the Martinez scale (or an Alpha level super in Marvel's system), while the Galaxar would be a 10 (or an Omega).[/quote']

 

Right, so then if a typical 300 point superhuman rates a "4" on such a scale, and a 25-50 point superhuman rates a "1", then there's some point of diminishing returns where you have someone who is capable of meaningfully working together with others to accomplish something with a decent chance of success, and where below that level you have people who are generally not capable of doing so, at least with regard to "menaces faced by low-powered teenage superhumans"(which, IIRC, was the original context of this whole debate).

I'd guess around 100 points would be the low end for teenage supers. If you game twice a month and progress them 50 points xp per game year, they will reach 300 points within 4 years of game time--equivalent to progressing from 9th through 12th grade. If you start them younger--7th grade(about 12-13 years old), then by the time they graduate high school, they may be as capable as a "standard" 400 point superhero. If you drop too far below the 100 point level, they basically all turn into one-trick ponies, and if they have the "wrong" trick, it may be a struggle to make them effective in a particular scenario. Not saying it couldn't be done, but you'd have a realllly slow learning curve before they became recognizable as some sort of competent team.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

That's not an artifact of setting the superhuman bar too low. That's just a consequence of having only the one bar. WHEREVER you draw the line between what you consider "superhuman" and "not so super, human" it can only distinguish between over and under that line. If you want to distinguish between several different grades of power, you need a larger set of terms.

 

But I can't tell you how to construct a set of labels that's actually useful to you, because I have no idea what you intend to use them for. What's useful for me might not be useful for you.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I find the palindromedary superlatively useful for example, but not many other people seem to get much use out of them.

 

Well, in the context of the original topic, I suppose the relevant bar would be "young superhumans in training(with the clear potential to become superheroes)" and where it might be reasonable to set such a bar(in terms of total points, active points, number of powers and so forth).

[Gent]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

The terminology that I commonly use for this is:

 

Metahuman means that you have some power or superhuman stat.

Superhuman means that your superpowers are sufficient to be useful in extraordinary circumstances, such as those that occur in superhero comics.

Superhero/villain means that you engage in larger-than-life acts of heroism/villainy. It does not imply being superhuman, and often the only difference between a hero and superhero is a pair of brightly-colored tights.

[RexMundi]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

I didn't see him hitting 4 targets while dodging bullets and catching his cards... If you can show me someone who can do that I might see Capt America as pinnacle guy. The thing is that the Super serum made him something better than human. Heck he's even had stories where the serium wears out and he starts to slow down to more human speeds.

 

Each to their own then. I'm happy with the Comic telling me he's the Pinnacle of Human Perfection, the Peak Possible for Everything a Human Could Potentially do, the Super Human, without being Superhuman. Even his "No Serum" times still left him able to play ball on the same field as always albeit with a tad more difficulty, even being reverted to his original physique in a couple of cases much less the times he was slapped back down to the mere levels of say, Hawkeye, Moon Knight, or the Punisher.

 

The differences between Rogers Level and that of the Best Trained Normal Human out there is something Brubaker has done an exemplary job laying out during his run so far on the title (and other titles), and better yet, is what he's demonstrated as the difference between Roger's level, and that of real Superhuman powers....In that respective genre and scale.

 

The video didn't show people doing what Captain America does, because they're not in a Comic Book. They are however, not a bad Non-Comic book example of how what they do, could be scaled up to the Comic Book Genre, and are usable as inspiration for such.

 

Folks used to bring up stuff back in the day about how Batman/Daredevil/The Spirit shouldn't be able to run across rooftops like he does, but heck look at the Parkour folks out there now..... Just sayin, it's not unreasonable to set the Pinnacle of Human Perfection Bar fairly High, especially if it's all in one package, and not still be Superhuman, in the light of what plain old ordinary folks do all the time (ordinary being a subjective term).

 

Unless of course it's hardcoded in steel that Anything that happens in a comic book Has to be Superhuman because there isn't a guy out there right now throwing Vibranium Alloy Shields around in his juggling act, then nothing anyone says or shows is going to convince otherwise and we can just agree to disagree.

 

However, that's a personal belief/choice made that conflicts with what is stated canon for that particular character, and in game terms, doesn't even factor in game mechanic things such as pushing and the like which seems to be a common issue in "building" said characters nowadays.

 

So if you are playing around in a Campaign, that's even easier. Now we have Pure Game Numbers. You as the GM (that's a subjective You, not anyone in particular) assign what you consider to be the Pinnacle of Peak Human Perfection (that's a lot of listed 30's and such currently for the basic physical stats), and then NHCM tends to float around 10 points less then that. Anything OVER that level, or obviously something a Human can't normally do (like, Set Fires with their Brian!) is Superhuman. It seems basic common sense (I know it's the Internet and Common Sense doesn't exist in the Interwebz) and there is a considerable backlog of characters and comics and such to measure it against....and that's before getting into other comparative examples. In Comics it's simple. If you Fly, Shoot blasts of energy out of your eyes, Throw Cars and Trucks around, are Bullet Proof, Breath Water, run at Hundreds or more miles an Hour, stick to walls, etc etc etc, you're Superhuman. Anything else is just Really Good.

 

~Rex

[Arkham]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

If you are buying Powers, you are superhuman. If you have breaking, not just NCM, but Maximum Characteristics for Normals, then you are superhuman. Some obvious Talents also count as Superhuman, while some don't, and some are in the grey area.

 

Point totals don't matter. Point totals and APs only determine if it is a good idea for you to fight crime or not.

[RexMundi]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

If you are buying Powers, you are superhuman. If you have breaking, not just NCM, but Maximum Characteristics for Normals, then you are superhuman. Some obvious Talents also count as Superhuman, while some don't, and some are in the grey area.

 

Point totals don't matter. Point totals and APs only determine if it is a good idea for you to fight crime or not.

 

Heh, especially if the crime is throwing Trucks and shooting Eye Lasers at you.

 

~Rex

[Enforcer84]

Re: What defines a Superhuman?

 

You see Batman differently than I do - maybe we've just read different issues. I never saw him as being that much stronger or more intelligent than the norm, for example. He's very highly trained. Smart, maybe even genius level, but not a 200 IQ. Has a ton of skills. Maybe his ability to put up with annoying teen sidekicks is superhuman, but I don't see anything else. I would say that much of what Batman does is because it's his book, and main characters always get excess handwavium and miracles, not because he is superhumanly strong or smart. The writers not letting anyone shoot him does not mean he is superhumanly fast or evasive, it just means they can't afford to kill him.

 

While an Einstein/Thorpe combo is highly unlikely, I would not say impossible, and thus not superhuman to my way of thinking. People are that smart and that athletic, even if only once per hundred years. Maybe once a millenium there is someone that is both, and can compose music like Mozart as well. Being at the absolute potential of humanity just makes you the best human, not superhuman.

 

 

 

By my definition, super high stats is the same thing as saying superhuman. The human body can only do so much. If the character needs to do more, then it must be more than human. Whether either type of character is a good fit for a given campaign is a different matter.

 

Batman in his own comic matches wits with crimelords and battles thugs and hired assassins. He faces credible threats in guys like the Penguin (at least their thugs) and he is superhumanly annoying.

 

Batman in the Justice League or any comic with superhumans in it matches wits with super-geniuses is a world class fighter with seeming superhuman resilience to punishment both mental and physical.

 

I can buy lower point totals in his own books, but Batman has been portrayed as "The Worlds Finest Detective," and an expert in Combat, Finance, Sciences, Engineering, and Psychology. There's precious few "mortals" in the DC universe that are portrayed as his equal in anything.