When, if ever, would your character kill?

[megaplayboy]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

You're arguing that the police regularly act like a Dirty Harry movie and I'M the one that's niave? O_o

 

If any police officer tried to act the way Megaplayboy suggests, they'd have Internal Affairs on thier butts so fast their heads would spin. There would be no cover up and none of the higher ups on the police force would support the officer who did it because stunts like that actually make it harder for the cops to do their job.

 

Except in the real life circumstances I posted about above, the suspect wasn't just beaten, they were strangled to death, and the only punitive consequences were that two officers were suspended without pay for a while. And that was for a guy charged with murdering 1 police officer, not dozens.

[phoenix240]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

You're arguing that the police regularly act like a Dirty Harry movie and I'M the one that's niave? O_o

.

 

No, I'm arguing that police officers are human beings and sometimes commit unjust and crminal acts and somtimes due connection and fraternity, the so called "Code of Silence" and just plain corruption they get away with it or just get a slap on the wrist.. I've personally wittnessd several and know of many more accounts. You can search the news for more.

 

And the idea that a cop killer beyond all known circumstance wouldn't have at least one "accident" over decades of crime is naieve. Cops are not fairytale Knights with some unshakable code of honor. People die in custody, get beaten, etc. Hardly a month goes by without a police brutality incident making the news and these aren't mass murderers beyond the pale of anything else that's happened in reality. Megaplayboy pointed out one incident. There's dozens, if not hundreds more depending on how far you go back.

[megaplayboy]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

One last volley in this debate:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21255937/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/study-died-police-custody-over-years/

(2002 deaths in police custody over a 3 year period, with a significant number of them being ruled homicides)

 

Like I said, the Joker catching a beating while in police custody on at least a couple occasions out of, say, 20 doesn't seem outrageous at all to me. It also wouldn't be "unrealistic" if the officers involved faced minimal discipline.

[Orion]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

If any police officer tried to act the way Megaplayboy suggests' date=' they'd have Internal Affairs on thier butts so fast their heads would spin. There would be no cover up and none of the higher ups on the police force would support the officer who did it because stunts like that actually make it harder for the cops to do their job.[/quote']

 

Beatings and murders happen when someone snaps all the time. There's no reason to think cops don't snap once in a while as well as normal joes. Just because they will likely get in trouble does not mean it will never happen. There are crooked cops out there, and the existence of Internal Affairs hasn't stopped them, so why would it stop a beating? It makes it more unlikely, but it doesn't eliminate the possibility.

[csyphrett]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

If you want to talk realism in cops handling villains, I will point to Bonnie and Clyde. The police that caught with them riddled their car from a safe distance. And when I say riddled, I mean they turned that car and Bonnie and Clyde into swiss cheese. I have no doubt if the joker wasn't a cash cow, this would be the realistic position of any reasonable police officer with a writer that understood that's how people will operate against a known danger.

 

CES

[Christopher]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

One last volley in this debate:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21255937/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/study-died-police-custody-over-years/

(2002 deaths in police custody over a 3 year period, with a significant number of them being ruled homicides)

 

Like I said, the Joker catching a beating while in police custody on at least a couple occasions out of, say, 20 doesn't seem outrageous at all to me. It also wouldn't be "unrealistic" if the officers involved faced minimal discipline.

From the text:

“Keep in mind we have 2,000 deaths out of almost 40 million arrests over three years, so that tells you by their nature they are very unusual cases,” said Christopher J. Mumola, who wrote the study."

 

If you want to talk realism in cops handling villains' date=' I will point to Bonnie and Clyde. The police that caught with them riddled their car from a safe distance. And when I say riddled, I mean they turned that car and Bonnie and Clyde into swiss cheese. I have no doubt if the joker wasn't a cash cow, this would be the realistic position of any reasonable police officer with a writer that understood that's how people will operate against a known danger.[/quote']

Because they could not safely arrest them. They had to stop them and there was no other way to make certain it succeds, like they literally said: "We weren't taking any chances."

This is something totally different from killing someone who is securely arrested.

[Tech]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

I think this thread has gone from the title question to something else.

[Christopher]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

I think this thread has gone from the title question to something else.

Yes, but you can sill respond to the OP (perhaps quote it, so it get's back to peoples minds).

[megaplayboy]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Well yes, as I noted, "why isn't the Joker six feet under already?" has been a recurring topic of discussion on these boards. To get back on topic, I'd also note that the modern era Joker probably falls into the (hopefully) narrow category of "characters my PC would put down like a mad dog"(with only hardcore CVK PCs likely excepted). Of course, a lot of players and PCs would also be angry about being put into such a situation(mass murderer escapes again and again) by a GM.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Joker has the 'advantage' that his main opponent is The Batman, who 'does not kill, ever'. If Joker's main enemy was, say, The Punisher, then he'd be dead. And brought back. And dead. And his son would take over. And he'd be killed. And brought back. And killed again. And his brother (who had never, ever been mentioned before) would take over. And (continue forever). The Joker, as a character, would never die, even as the people who take up the mantle will be killed.

 

All of my characters listed in the original post with one exception would eventually deliberately kill The Joker. The exception being Goliath, who is too childish/insane to deliberatly kill anyone, but would probably hit him until he stopped moving for 'hurting his friends'.

[Christopher]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Of course' date=' a lot of players and PCs would also be angry about being put into such a situation(mass murderer escapes again and again) by a GM.[/quote']

Indeed, that would reek of GM trying to "punish" a player for choosing a complication he does not like (such a potential error is discussed sowhere in the core libary, but I cant find it right now).

[megaplayboy]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Indeed' date=' that would reek of GM trying to "punish" a player for choosing a complication he does not like (such a potential error is discussed sowhere in the core libary, but I cant find it right now).[/quote']

 

Forcing a PC with a Total CVK to kill someone is the equivalent of having a Hunted show up and actually kill(or permanently enslave) the PC, or having their DNPC get gratuituously killed with no opportunity to save them. Basically, it's not the point of the Complication--the point of a CvK is to present a PC with a situation where, to someone else, killing would be an option(possibly it's much more efficient or straightforward or permanent), but the PC has to either stop them or find a more creative solution that also works(e.g., defuse a hostage situation without shooting the hostage-taker in the head).

 

Complications are there to say to the GM "Here's some ways you can make my character's life more complicated", not "Here's how to sadistically screw over and torture my character".

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Indeed. The Joker's entire existence, nowadays, seems to be a sadistic GM rubbing his nose in the Batman's player's choice to take a CvK.

[megaplayboy]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Indeed. The Joker's entire existence' date=' nowadays, seems to be a sadistic GM rubbing his nose in the Batman's player's choice to take a CvK.[/quote']

 

The player should just say, "Oh, no, I'm playing the Thomas Wayne Batman today..."

[Vulcan]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Or buy off CvK.

[csyphrett]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

From the text:

 

 

Because they could not safely arrest them. They had to stop them and there was no other way to make certain it succeds, like they literally said: "We weren't taking any chances."

This is something totally different from killing someone who is securely arrested.

 

I know. But over the years, I'm sure a lot of cops have tried to arrest the joker and failed because they didn't get the backup they should have. In my opinion, SWAT should have been sent in to blow him away a long time ago.

 

He's a prime example of a target that other villains would kill just because.

CES

[csyphrett]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Indeed. The Joker's entire existence' date=' nowadays, seems to be a sadistic GM rubbing his nose in the Batman's player's choice to take a CvK.[/quote']

 

A sadistic GM that changes the campaign rules as he goes.

CES

[death tribble]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Of my characters

 

The Flame Never had code against and eventually had killing attacks, one of which was a damage shield. When he did kill for the first time, it was a set up. He went to destroy these flame throwers that some agents were using and they all blew up. That was the idea, it was a booby trap. He would have intentionally killed Lightray who betrayed the team, and The Avenger who murdered the Cobra. At the time the Cobra was effectively brain dead had killed the Avengers parents as part of his back history. This was a solo rather than a team outing. The Flame never forgave him for it especially when it came out that he was still around pretending to be the hero called Nemesis and certain of the team knew and where supporting him. Others in the team had faced arrest, trial and imprisonment but not the Avenger.

 

The Magician had Won't kill unless avoidable as a psych lim to take on those cases where you had to drop the goon. I developed that in the back history as he had already been around unlike the Flame who I developed from scratch. He killed a vampire on one occassion after we knocked him out and that was deliberate.

 

The Demoness had code against. However Demons aren't alive and telepoting them back to hell does not kill. Also skeletons etc are already dead. She also had N ray vision. If you had a soul, you were alive. Otherwise you were not. Like robots or The Warlock and Nightmare who sold theirs for power.

 

Darklight/Electralite. One was the battle scarred version of the other and would have done it to save lives

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

He's a prime example of a target that other villains would kill just because.

 

They would then receive the key to the city and a parade in their honor.

 

Virtually,

Bodkins Odds

[Enforcer84]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

I don't remember this happening in The Dark Knight

 

Of course not, he used Bat-Hypnotism to make you forget.

[Enforcer84]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

He's the one who brought up how real world police officers would act. I'm just saying he's wrong.

 

And I'm saying you're erring too far the other direction.

Cops in my home town of 50k recently shot and killed a suspect.

I can easily imagine a real world cop shooting someone like the Joker because he knew he could justify it. Which is all this is an exercise in. You can't pretend to know the motivations of every human on the planet anymore than Megaplayboy can.

[Enforcer84]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Cops do not act the way Megaplayboy says they do in real life. There are numerous accounts of serial killers captured by police who didn't end up killed or savagely beaten the moment somebody looked the other way. The friggin Unabomber was captured by the police and despite being a domestic terrorist who's blown up numerous buildings and slain several people in the process, police officers were able to maintain their professionalism and not kill him out of hand.

 

The evidence does not support Megaplayboy's theory.

 

That particular piece of evidence doesn't support his claim, but I'll bet if you look you can find some that does.

How about the Rodney King Beatings?

Or the guy in New York shot because he was reaching for his cell phone?

Or the crazy naked kid in Portland shot while running away?

 

There is real world evidence of people, good people, who are supposed to know better doing the very things Mega was talking about. Does it happen all the time like in comics or fiction? No. Just like real hospitals aren't subjected to the crap that happens in ER week after week. That kind of stuff indeed happens, but spaced out over miles and decades.

[Enforcer84]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Well yes' date=' as I noted, "why isn't the Joker six feet under already?" has been a recurring topic of discussion on these boards. To get back on topic, I'd also note that the modern era Joker probably falls into the (hopefully) narrow category of "characters my PC would put down like a mad dog"(with only hardcore CVK PCs likely excepted). Of course, a lot of players and PCs would also be angry about being put into such a situation(mass murderer escapes again and again) by a GM.[/quote']

 

Actually, In our campaign a person like the Joker would be caught and held indefinitely, tried and most likely put in the strong-hold like place for good. Depending on where he was caught he might be executed by the state.

 

Edit:

There's a pretty good chance in our Campaign one of our characters would have killed him (I'm looking at you, Ace). Or...

we had a pretty vile killer in our campaign who didn't survive his time in prison. We had to investigate it. It is possible to have characters like that in a game and deal with them permanently without killing them outright.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

we had a pretty vile killer in our campaign who didn't survive his time in prison. We had to investigate it. It is possible to have characters like that in a game and deal with them permanently without killing them outright.

 

I could be wrong, but when he said that the Joker was someone that all of his characters would kill, I got the impression that he specifically meant the one that inevitably and repeatedly escaped from incarceration. If the justice system actually dealt with the Joker then I don't think it would really be an issue.

 

Virtually,

Bodkins Odds

[timfnj]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Magicman has no CvK; our gaming group/campaigns leans a lot more to '60's Hanna-Barbera and anime rather than 4-color. The cardboard world scenario equals a gm who is literally telling me to sit in the corner for that game session and/or do not come back for the next game they run.