All ghosts evil?

[Asperion]

I recently got wondering why there is this convention that all ghosts must be innately evil. Afterall the ghost (from modern belief) comes from a formerly living human. If that human was good in life why does he suddenly become evil when he becomes a ghost? I do not want to hear this thing about good spirits going onto their spiritual rewards since then the bad spirits would then go onto their reward as well and there would be no ghosts for this world. Also one cannot say that good people do not have spirits since then that also would be true for bad people as well and (again) no ghosts. As a result living people have spirits and upon their death will be released as a ghost that will still possess the original personality as the person had in life (either good or bad). That means that not all ghosts will be evil, nor will all ghosts be good.

 

Can anyone come up with some reason why all ghosts will be either good or evil other that saying "thats the rules"?

[dmjalund]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

Ghosts generally "can't let go" of the real world. They have unfinished business. Otherwise, exspecially in a fantasy campaign, ghosts can be bound to the mortal plane by evil magics.

[Lucius]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

who told you ghosts are always evil?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And what did they say about palindromedaries?

[Escafarc]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

I blame Hanna Barbera.

[Midas]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

Can anyone come up with some reason why all ghosts will be either good or evil other that saying "thats the rules"?

 

 

According to Navaho belief, death is almost The End. When someone dies, the good part ceases to exist. The evil part lingers on to torment the living as a haunt/poltergeist until it too, vanishes into oblivion.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

Depends on the game world. It could well be that only people who are evil are punished by being forced to remain on the mortal plane instead of resting. It could just be that only evil ghosts create conflict and thus create stories.

 

I recently ran a game where a spirit was haunting a manor house because his wife's body had been dug up and dragged off. Certainly not evil, but he was incredibly angry and lashing out at everybody and everything.

 

My personal view, though, is that there's not an 'always evil' anything.

[McCoy]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

I blame Hanna Barbera.

Huh?

[teh bunneh]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

In my game world, ghosts (all of the undead, in fact) exist in violation of every law of god, man, and nature. They're also known as "strangers," because they aren't from here and they don't belong here. Their very existance is a blight, and all right-thinking creatures are repulsed by them. There's also the fact that they can spread their curse, sometimes even just by seeing one you could be cursed to become one. So yes, they're evil.

 

But that's just my game world. I can easily see another campaign where they're neither good nor evil, or even purely good (ancestor spirits come back to advise their descendents, for instance).

[Escafarc]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

Huh?

Well all the Ghosts turned out to be evil miscreants who would of gotten away with it if it wasn't for those meddling kids:D

[McCoy]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

I recently got wondering why there is this convention that all ghosts must be innately evil.

Don't know where this came from as I've never before heard that all ghost must be innately evil. Only thing I can think of that would justify that is a Christian belief that good people go to heaven, and if a ghost is hanging around it somehow was not good enought to get into heaven, but SOMEHOW has managed to evade or pospone judement and hell, so is still in disobedience to god. (Actually this is a distortion of the official version, which is only saints go directly to heaven, everybody else, good or evil, sleeps in death until judgement day).

 

Prechristian sources vary on why someone might become a ghost, most of which can fall under the category "unfinished business." In Hamlet, which I believe was based on a pre-Christian story, Hamlet had to decide if the apprition he was seeing was actually the ghost of his father, whose torment was increased by the fact that his murder was unavenged, or an impostor sent by the devil to temp Hamlet into the sin of murdering his uncle, who in this case would have been innocent of the old king's death. Demon or spirit crying for vengence, hard to pick a good side in that case.

 

If we take the official Christian stance that all the dead are sleeping until judgement day, any ghost is not what it appears/claims to be and is lying. You could use this as a start for why ghost are innately evil.

[McCoy]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

Well all the Ghosts turned out to be evil miscreants who would of gotten away with it if it wasn't for those meddling kids:D

Exactly. Every one of the ghost turned out to be fakes. Which says nothing about the nature of genuine ghost.

[FrankL]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

If we take the official Christian stance that all the dead are sleeping until judgement day, any ghost is not what it appears/claims to be and is lying. You could use this as a start for why ghost are innately evil.

 

Official with which branch? I'm a seminary grad and I am aware of only a few groups that believe in the mortality of the soul as some call it (or soul sleep). Luther did believe it (and some Lutherans still do), but John Calvin wrote a treatise against it. The Catholic Church condemned it as a serious heresy at the 5th Lateran Council in 1513. And the Eastern Orthodox believe in a conscious state between death and the final state which is neither heaven nor hell. The just rest in light while the evil suffer in darkness until judgment day when they go to Heaven or Hell.

 

Most protestant groups believe that upon death the soul goes to either Heaven or Hell immediately. The official Catholic teaching is that most believers will spend time in purgatory after death being purified for Heaven. The wicked go to Hell immediately.

 

But your analysis of Hamlet is spot on.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

I recently got wondering why there is this convention that all ghosts must be innately evil.

 

I think this is more of a horror trope than a fantasy trope. Evil ghosts (and other supernatural beings) make perfect antagonists in horror. In fantasy, ghosts tend to be more varied.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

I think this is more of a horror trope than a fantasy trope. Evil ghosts (and other supernatural beings) make perfect antagonists in horror. In fantasy' date=' ghosts tend to be more varied.[/quote']

 

Good point.

[McCoy]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

Official with which branch? I'm a seminary grad and I am aware of only a few groups that believe in the mortality of the soul as some call it (or soul sleep). Luther did believe it (and some Lutherans still do), but John Calvin wrote a treatise against it. The Catholic Church condemned it as a serious heresy at the 5th Lateran Council in 1513. And the Eastern Orthodox believe in a conscious state between death and the final state which is neither heaven nor hell. The just rest in light while the evil suffer in darkness until judgment day when they go to Heaven or Hell.

 

Most protestant groups believe that upon death the soul goes to either Heaven or Hell immediately. The official Catholic teaching is that most believers will spend time in purgatory after death being purified for Heaven. The wicked go to Hell immediately.

 

But your analysis of Hamlet is spot on.

I stand corrected.

[Asperion]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

who told you ghosts are always evil?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And what did they say about palindromedaries?

 

I fisrt heard that from D&D. Then when it seemed to be repeated in other places I thought that it was true. But I eventually got thinking what I stated in the first post. Research in addition to Herodom lead me to the conclusion that that is a Gyaxiasm.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

As many posters have already noted, a ghost does not have to be evil. They may well retain the personalities they had in life and so can be 'good' or 'bad', at least initially.

 

There have been tales, even in the real world, about ghosts that return fo benevolent or neutral reasons. There is a Roman story about the spirit of a young woman that returned to life for no other reason than to make passionate love to a young man who was staying in her parents' house.

 

There are also the many cults of ancestor worship and the belief shared by various cultures that the bonds of kinship are not severed by death. Even modern people often share this belief.

 

However, many real world cultures and fantasy settings hold to the idea that a ghost or spirit is created when something has gone wrong in the natural order, imbalance or the failure of humans to observe the correct rituals or behaviours.

 

Unfinished business is probably the most common modern cliche. There are others. In myth and folklore the classic 'ghost' can be linked to evil spirits, monsters, fairies and demons, depending on the place and circumstances of its origin. The lack of observance of burial rites, being sinful or practicing witchcraft in life, an unclean death or death by suicide, death in childbirth or corruption from the influence of another supernatural creature or power, all can lead to a spirit roaming the earth to plague the living.

 

A restless spirit is usually suffering, because they have been denied or have refused the opportunity to travel to the afterlife. This does not have to be because they are too evil or good to move on or because they left things unfinished, it could be that they cannot reach the afterlife without the proper rites or that they are unable to rest until they have been avenged or their killer has made due reparation. Many of these spirits want to punish those who have wronged them e.g. by failing to bury them on consecrated ground, by not offering recompense to kin or the gods for their untimely death.

 

Moving on to the afterlife is not an all or nothing thing; many cultures believe that there are certain mechanisms, such as the last rites or a couple of coins over the eyes, which must be in place before a soul can reach the afterlife. The spirits striking out at those who have doomed them in this way are acting just like normal people, not really good or evil.

 

In fact the fear of these ghosts caused people to act in a socially responsible way by paying blood debts and carrying out the correct rituals.

 

Other spirits are simply so traumatised by a violent or taboo death e.g. in battle, by drowning or in a state of sin, that they become something mad and monstrous and are driven to share their horror with humanity. It is natural to want revenge on the warrior who killed you, this is not a good act but is not necessarily an evil one either, (or at least not an unusually evil act). Being mad or no longer human also makes morality difficult.

 

Of course many of these spirits become monsters that modern roleplayers would regard as being quite different to classic 'ghosts'. Women who died in childbirth were believed in some cultures to become bloodthirsty spirits, this is one explanation for the Malaysian Penanggalan and the only one for Mexican Ciauteteo. Russian Rusalki were sometimes explained as unbaptised children drowned at birth or sinners or as suicides who seek revenge on all young men, having been jilted by one. And while Banshees were originally regarded as fairies there were later tales about them which claimed that they were the souls of women who were murdered or who died in childbirth.

 

Even European Vampires were in some cases believed to be intangible souls that, through improper burial or a life of evil, seeped out of their coffins and rose to plague the living. That is why it was such a good idea to catch them while they slept, if they were out of the coffin you might not even be able to touch them.

 

So the evil reputation of the restless spirit in real world mythology has been shared out in modern fantasy and rpgs amongst a plethora of different monsters. Some people will equate the classic ghost with such taboo creatures that usurp the natural order or 'the way things should be', but others will see them as distinct from such creatures and wonder what it is that could make them 'evil'.

 

In short. Ghosts have a lot of very nasty cousins with similar origin stories. Ghosts are often associated with taboos such as suicide and murder. Ghosts are usually traumatised, angry, trapped on the mortal plane, or all three. So, ghosts don't have to be evil, particularly in fantasy, but many of the events which result in ghosts are not pleasant and so ghosts, like children who have been abused, have a tendency to lash out at the world.

 

Anyway, where's the satisfaction in laying a happy and benevolent ghost to rest?

[Lucius]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

I was reminded of this....

 

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/69977-The-Littlest-Fireman

 

"Lady! LADY! You got to move! The house is on fire!"

 

The shaking and the terrified words finally reached the woman, foggy

with sleep and with smoke inhalation. She found her infant thrust into

her arms, and was being tugged insistently out of the bed. The distant

sound of sirens and the smell of smoke got her moving quickly, but the

sight of flames at the foot of the stair froze her in terror.

 

Then a hand slipped into hers and the heat, the smell, and fear all

evaporated. A gentle tug from the small yellow clad figure beside her

got her moving again, and with one hand holding his and the other arm

cradling the baby she walked down the stairs and right into the flames.

"It looked like Hell, but it felt like Heaven" she said later. She was

led to the locked front door just as it fell to an ax, and the

firefighter's obvious shock did not slow his reaction as he seized her

and carried her, and the baby, bodily away from the burning house.

 

Two weeks later firefighters responding to another alarm were surprised

to see that somehow one of their number must have gotten there ahead of

the rest; someone wearing the distinctive helmet was already waving from

a fifth story window. The ladder was immediately raised, and two

children were helped out. The third - a boy of seven wearing a child

size firefighter's uniform, the one who had been waving - turned away. The

firefighter grabbed, but his hand passed through the little body like

smoke.

 

The courage of firefighters is a byword, but those who saw this

apparition - always at fires, always when someone needed rescue - were

frightened. Partly because they recognized him; most had either met the

boy or seen his picture. He was one of their own, an honorary

firefighter. And he had died of leukemia a month ago.

 

 

 

 

Okay, I don't have the character and am not sure I'll create it, but I thought I'd share the idea. Maybe someone else can write it up.

 

Plot seeds:

 

There's been a spike in recent months of unexplained fires, mystery blazes where the cause either cannot be determined, or the apparent cause is freakishly unlikely. These are all fires where the Littlest Fireman put in an appearance. Could this ghost, or whatever it is, be causing the fires?

Variant1: The Littlest Fireman keeps pointing. Eventually someone gets the idea of trying to triangulate the directions he points in from each fire. He seems to be indicating a certain apartment block. Somewhere in that building lives the little girl who's been having nightmares lately about fires....

Variant2: All the suspect fires are in heavily insured buildings, and these are the first fires the Littlest Fireman appeared at where there weren't victims to be rescued. He seems upset but just says "Get the bad guy, you gotta get the bad guy" before vanishing. Has someone found an undetectable way to commit arson? Is there a new supervillain with fire powers selling his talent to these businessmen who don't seem so upset that their property burned down? And can you convince the investigating authorities to take seriously the word of a child, and a child who isn't even alive anymore at that?

 

A religiously motivated hero (or possibly a more ordinary person, perhaps a cleric of some faith) has bought a scanner and is rushing to fires, sometimes even getting in the way of firefighters, trying to confront the spirit and exorcise it. "If it IS really the soul of that poor child, it needs to be released to go on to the afterlife! And if it's NOT what it seems, it's obviously evil and needs to be banished." Should the heroes help, hinder, or ignore the would be exorcist?

Variant1: The Littlest Fireman always cries and looks sad when firefighters see him. Is he being compelled somehow to live up to his wish to be "a real firefighter?" Does he regret the wish now?

Variant2: The Littlest Fireman always looks happy when the firefighters show up and even speaks, usually remarks like "Hooray! We saved this kid!" or is overheard saying to a victim "Don't try to move mister, your legs got burned a little, I know it hurts but help is coming, you'll be okay....HEY JOE! This guy needs a stretcher!" If he's doing what he wants to do, and helping people, is it right to try to send him on to wherever he's "supposed" to go?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note: My inspiration was a real little boy who became an honorary firefighter through the Make a Wish foundation's efforts and his local fire department's compassion. The child was real although the versions of the story that circulate online are often exagerrated or distorted. I chose not to use the boy's real name because I don't want to cheapen his memory with my trivial bit of fiction.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that if you're curious, you can check out the story at snopes.com

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

I fisrt heard that from D&D. Then when it seemed to be repeated in other places I thought that it was true. But I eventually got thinking what I stated in the first post. Research in addition to Herodom lead me to the conclusion that that is a Gyaxiasm.

 

Which means it's something even D&D doesn't do anymore.

[Badger]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

I recently got wondering why there is this convention that all ghosts must be innately evil. Afterall the ghost (from modern belief) comes from a formerly living human. If that human was good in life why does he suddenly become evil when he becomes a ghost? I do not want to hear this thing about good spirits going onto their spiritual rewards since then the bad spirits would then go onto their reward as well and there would be no ghosts for this world. Also one cannot say that good people do not have spirits since then that also would be true for bad people as well and (again) no ghosts. As a result living people have spirits and upon their death will be released as a ghost that will still possess the original personality as the person had in life (either good or bad). That means that not all ghosts will be evil, nor will all ghosts be good.

 

Can anyone come up with some reason why all ghosts will be either good or evil other that saying "thats the rules"?

 

Well, some ghost can be a bit confused or threatened from the result of their death. So, instead of being evil they could be scared and protecting themselves in some sense.*

 

Though, I've never ever heard that all ghost are evil. by the way.

 

* if they dont know they are dead and you go into their house....well, they may be protecting vs. invaders in their mind.

[Badger]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

The living also tend to fear ghost. So, you never know the ghost might be committing a benevolent action that is interpreted as evil by a freaked out person.

[McCoy]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

Well, some ghost can be a bit confused or threatened from the result of their death. So, instead of being evil they could be scared and protecting themselves in some sense.*

 

Though, I've never ever heard that all ghost are evil. by the way.

 

* if they dont know they are dead and you go into their house....well, they may be protecting vs. invaders in their mind.

Or may need the assistance of a living being to accomplish some "unfinished business," and so desperate to attract atention they are reduced to acting out like a petulent child.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

I am a skeptic; one who tends to believe in the possibility of supernatural stuff, but has yet to see "proof."

 

As such, "ghosts don't scare me." Or so I like to tell myself.

 

However, in the few instances of my life where something weird happened and someone mentioned "that was a ghost" or whatever, I have found myself with goosebumps and more than a bit apprehensive, if not "scared."

 

I think our innate fear of the unknown is what colors this "ghosts are always evil" tendency.

[Badger]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

I am a skeptic; one who tends to believe in the possibility of supernatural stuff, but has yet to see "proof."

 

As such, "ghosts don't scare me." Or so I like to tell myself.

 

However, in the few instances of my life where something weird happened and someone mentioned "that was a ghost" or whatever, I have found myself with goosebumps and more than a bit apprehensive, if not "scared."

 

I think our innate fear of the unknown is what colors this "ghosts are always evil" tendency.

 

Heck, I know I'm running. If I hear a disembodied "get out" I will do what it says, and then when I do get out change my underwear.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: All ghosts evil?

 

Well, the closest I have come to a "real life ghost story" is hearing thumps or footsteps in an attic, or similar such nonsense that proves nothing other than our own gullibility.

 

So I cannot say what I would do if confronted by an "actual ghost." I'd like to say that my curiosity would overcome my trepidation, but alas, I am but human.