budding voyager Posted June 20, 2011 Report Share Posted June 20, 2011 According to 6E2, there doesn't seem to be any effects of dying except losing one BODY a Turn, which doesn't seem that incapacitating given what dying represents (i.e. it appears you can act normally if dying...you just lose a BODY every 12 seconds). It appears all the incapacitating effects of negative BODY is assumed to be there (if you have negative BODY, you probably have negative STUN, too; of course that's not certain). Is this correct? If it is correct, have any GMs out there altered this rule? I was thinking whenever a dying character uses END, they lose an equal amount of BODY and/or STUN. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted June 20, 2011 Report Share Posted June 20, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying You got it. A character can be mortally wounded and still be conscious and active. Since this is true to both the cinematic "reality" of heroic fiction and to actual reality, I personally see no reason to want to change it. Why would you want to encourage a player character to just lie down and die, when they could die on their feet fighting to their last breath? Lucius Alexander House of the Palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted June 20, 2011 Report Share Posted June 20, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying You are correct; I don't see a reason to change it. In fiction, characters regularly perform acts of heroism while dying on their feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budding voyager Posted June 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying In the HERO combats I played in, combat rarely exceed a five Turns and since most characters bought some extra BODY, "fighting to death" isn't really going to happen at -1 BODY a Turn. Making them lose BODY equal to END make sense to me (moving around puts stress on the body, causes blood flow and thus bleeding faster) and enables them to keep fighting in a clearly heroic manner. Do I want characters to lie on the ground doing nothing? No. But I want the "dying" state to mean something other than a slow bleed. Perhaps damage to STUN instead of BODY would capture the best of both worlds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying You seem to have made up your mind what you want to do regardless of the feedback solicited. Depending on how negative a character's body is and if they remain in harms way, losing 1 additional Body per Turn can be pretty alarming. It creates dramatic tension well. Also, as memory serves, I don't think you can recover STUN while at -Body, though that may have been a house rule. Personally, I like this aspect of the HERO System, and remember the first time it happened that a character ended up at negative BODY and positive STUN. We searched the rule book and eventually reached the conclusion that the character could fight on...we all kind of looked around at each other non-plussed (used to other games where the separation between 'stun' and 'body' or an equivalent didn't exist) and collectively said "Cool!". YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying If it works for you and those you game with, go for it. It does sound like you've made up your mind. Let us know how it plays out. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary refuses to get all wound up over wounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying Also, as memory serves, I don't think you can recover STUN while at -Body, though that may have been a house rule. House rule, though odds are you're not going to want to spend a lot of time catching your breath when you don't have many left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escafarc Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying Well if you die while playing, someone else will have to roll your dice for you. And if your friends are like mine that's when the Sharpies and funny hats make an appearance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budding voyager Posted June 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying You seem to have made up your mind what you want to do regardless of the feedback solicited. I'd say that's too strong of a statement given I posted my first response after just two replies. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do: my general rule is to default to the standard rules which have been refined over several years. But my gut tells me my STUN house rule at least the start of a good idea so I'm hesitant to completely drop it so quickly. The no recovering STUN in negative BODY sounds like a good idea and has the added benefit of cutting down on book-keeping. Did that rule include the post-Segment 12 recovery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying I wouldn't usually increase Bleeding due to exertion (note: usually), but I definitely would impose negatives to any effort to STOP the Bleeding if the PC refused to cease exerting himself, and make that PC make rolls to see if they resumed Bleeding due to their continued efforts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying 5e had rules for Bleeding beyond just losing one per turn (including ceasing bleeding). I presume that 6e also has them somewhere, you may want to use those. Losing Body equal to END is a really big number, considering that typical superheroic attacks burn at least 4 END most of the time (and that's if they're bought Half END). Something more akin to one additional Body lost at the end of the turn if you exerted yourself seems more appropriate, though I suppose it depends on just how lethal you want your game to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying Personally' date=' I like this aspect of the HERO System, and remember the first time it happened that a character ended up at negative BODY and positive STUN. We searched the rule book and eventually reached the conclusion that the character could fight on...we all kind of looked around at each other non-plussed (used to other games where the separation between 'stun' and 'body' or an equivalent didn't exist) and collectively said "Cool!". YMMV.[/quote']I guess its because many players are used to the D&D version, where you become unconscous at 0 HP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying The no recovering STUN in negative BODY sounds like a good idea and has the added benefit of cutting down on book-keeping. Did that rule include the post-Segment 12 recovery? That rule would cause you to never recover conciuousness once in negative body. Wich is unlikely, as your body is very interested in you being up to fix it. I do think fighting in the negatives - against whatever brought you there in the first place - is a heroic deed. Normally you risk only injury when hit with a killing attack. When at negative HP, you risk instant death, even from a blast (if you are knocked to much into the negatives, you might not get back before you are dead). There are rules for "Penaltys through damage" in 6E2 111: Imparing and Disabling. Maybe you should take a closer look at them, perhaps they do what you want? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying Use the optional Bleeding and Disabling rules. Bleeding increases the further negative you go, and even if the Disabling is cinematically temperorary it will affect things dramatically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying At least for his Ideas of "lying Still or making it worse" and "don't overexert, or you reopen it", bleeding sounds like the ideal construct. But he raises a good point: There is no "flat Penalty on Rolls based on lost Body"-System, or at least I could not find in 6E2 and APG. Shadowrun has one (Damage recieved/3, rounded up as Dice Pool Penalty). D&D has an option that encourages always having high HP, or else you loose an action, but no flat penalty. Hero has the wounding rule (6E2 108; similar to D&D construct), but no flat penalty. A few other games at least have optional rules for it. Of course, the bell curve may make such things unfeasible in the first place... And there is already the entire Stun Mechanic to let you loose actions (beign Stunned/K.O.). And the disabling, Imparing, Bleeding and Knockback Rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying I went back and reviewed some material. The no recoveries while at negative Stun thing was just something a group of mine had considered at one point, along with a few other increased lethality options. Thinking back, I don't think we actually implemented it because most of the various notes from that and a couple of other "lets make it more lethal" discussions were later incorporated into the Increased Lethality Options documents, and the no rec at neg stun option didn't make the cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying Use the optional Bleeding and Disabling rules. Bleeding increases the further negative you go' date=' and even if the Disabling is cinematically temperorary it will affect things dramatically.[/quote'] Yep, this. with Impairing/Disabling rules active, the size of the wounds make quite a lot of difference. Most of the time getting to negative body will result in at least one Impairment, and often several, or one solid Disablement. If you're dying because you've been picked apart with little nickle & dime wounds it's quite possible you wouldn't have too many combat penalties. I do think that there should be some sort of optional slow returning cumulative penalty (Drain, basically) from blood-loss. The current model can weaken you, knock you out and kill you, but you can bounce back remarkably quickly once you get treatment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying Well I would suggest unlearning your D&D expectations. When a Character gets to 0 Body or less, they start to bleed. Of course A Paramedic Roll or any amount of healing will stop bleeding. (6e2 pg 104). Except for impending death, being at 0 to Neg Body has no other effects. Now taking more body will cause bleeding to start again. Also at negative Body equal to their BODY stat the Character dies (ie becomes a pile of inanimate meat and bone). Once dead the only way to bring the character back to life requires Resurrection which is a Healing Adder. I guess a Paramedic roll could be used to bring someone back with a good roll. I would give bonuses for proper equipment etc. Hero is a Cinematic RPG, it's structure makes it difficult to kill characters. Also, the Original Authors liked the idea of someone bleeding to death being still up and fighting till they run out of Body and die. Which is a VERY heroic way to die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budding voyager Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying I think the key thing for me is that my group and I just finished a 3 year World of Darkness game, which are about as unheroic as you can get. If we're trying a new system, I think its best that we dive in 100% and go with standard rules. Thanks for point to the optional rules in 2E 111; if our WoD demons get ahold of us, that's a good place to start. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying I'm wary of combat penalties for injuries. These often become a death spiral - the penalty from the first wound makes it unlikely you can effectively retaliate or defend yourself. The result is that first strike becomes much more valuable. If that's the desired effect, great. If not, it can damage the desired feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Divago Posted June 24, 2011 Report Share Posted June 24, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying I guess its because many players are used to the D&D version' date=' where you become unconscous at 0 HP[/quote'] O.O i always did they fall back unconscious while at negative BODY! (and in the heroico fantasy settings most of the enemies will also be considered "dead" ) ok, i'm playing with 5er where i'm sure rule are different... ... ... very different... ... ... nope... they are identical... ... i fear my player will kill me for everytime they ended up at negative body and then automatically stunned x_x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted June 24, 2011 Report Share Posted June 24, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying O.O i always did they fall back unconscious while at negative BODY! (and in the heroico fantasy settings most of the enemies will also be considered "dead" ) ok, i'm playing with 5er where i'm sure rule are different... ... ... very different... ... ... nope... they are identical... ... i fear my player will kill me for everytime they ended up at negative body and then automatically stunned x_x Eh, you goofed. Just fess up, admit your mistake, apologize, and go on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted June 24, 2011 Report Share Posted June 24, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying O.O i fear my player will kill me for everytime they ended up at negative body and then automatically stunned x_x I think you mean Unconscious, being stunned is something different. If you keep the terms straight you will prevent one of the common sources of confusion with the system PS Just let your players know that you made a mistake and you will be doing it the right way in the future. Most players are forgiving esp when the ruling goes in their favor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted June 24, 2011 Report Share Posted June 24, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying I'd go with 0 or 1/2 end recovery and normal stun recovery this makes it more likely the character will have to spend stun to do most actions or you could go with saying at 0 or less body all actions cost x4 end if not bought down/x2 end if bought to 1/2 normal end cost /normal end cost if bought to 0 using a charge costs 1 end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted June 24, 2011 Report Share Posted June 24, 2011 Re: Game Effects of Dying I'd go with 0 or 1/2 end recovery and normal stun recovery this makes it more likely the character will have to spend stun to do most actions or you could go with saying at 0 or less body all actions cost x4 end if not bought down/x2 end if bought to 1/2 normal end cost /normal end cost if bought to 0 using a charge costs 1 end And ALL pushing when at negative BODY will cost BODY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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