Hyper-Man Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack The 4 point "Martial" Shove maneuver would get the following if added to my previous "Jedi" example: Shove: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 45 STR to Shove Both this and the Martial Throw give extra defense to high STR targets. I envision the ability having a mass limit but target STR should not matter (unless Clinging to the ground is involved). Flight UAA defined as another form of Jedi TK would be the other alternative. It would need an appropriate defense defined just like adding NND to TK* (IF that were a rules legal combination, which it isn't). The following alternative could be fit inside a Framework with the original TK as well as an EB or even my 3 point KB Only 'custom' approach. 33 Jedi Combat TK 2: Flight 20m, Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; +1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1), Usable As Attack (+1 1/4) (75 Active Points); Instant (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Requires A Roll (14- roll; -1/4) 7 END Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack The 4 point "Martial" Shove maneuver would get the following if added to my previous "Jedi" example: Shove: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 45 STR to Shove That#s a good point: Martial Arts cann add additional DC/STR to "Exert based maneuvers" that way even 20 STR character can break out of Grabs like a 60 STR Brick. The wieght Limit: I would use the STR before being affected by martial Arts, and compare that to the Lifting Limit in the (Heroic) Campaign. Or just take the KB-Resistance. Shove already has those rules for heavy objects, so you just need to apply them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack You are right on the Str vs. Str thing on TK; I have house ruled that, in most cases, the target of a TK attack only gets to resist if they can grab onto something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack Oh' date=' I like that one! Here's how I'd define it. [i']Target:[/i] person standing on his feet. Transformed into: person knocked flat on his @$$!!! I thought Cosmetic Transforms couldn't have combat effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack While rules legal, there's probably no way I'd ever let that into a Game I was running, unless you served some wine with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack Oh' date=' I like that one! Here's how I'd define it. [i']Target:[/i] person standing on his feet. Transformed into: person knocked flat on his @$$!!! Cute. I was actually thinking of Transforming the target into a zero-mass object. This has no mechanical effect on the target, and hence is cosmetic, but does allow me the temporary ability to do as you say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack I thought Cosmetic Transforms couldn't have combat effects. It doesn't. There are no mechanical alterations to the target. Their powers and abilities are as they were before. They just suffer a bit of sudden acceleration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack Cute. I was actually thinking of Transforming the target into a zero-mass object. This has no mechanical effect on the target' date=' and hence is cosmetic, but does allow me the temporary ability to do as you say.[/quote'] making a target 0-Mass has a bunch of Mechanical effect on a target, Teleport being just one of them (otherwise there'd be no Mass Adder). Change it to Frictionless Object as a better special effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack While rules legal' date=' there's probably no way I'd ever let that into a Game I was running, unless you served some wine with it.[/quote'] I think we'd have to go straight to the hard stuff (like, Charlie Sheenesque levels of cocaine) to get me to agree to that construct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack making a target 0-Mass has a bunch of Mechanical effect on a target' date=' Teleport being just one of them (otherwise there'd be no Mass Adder).[/quote'] The target wouldn't have zero mass (or be inertialess) for the purposes of another power, whether the target's or not. They couldn't be Teleported without requiring an adder, use flight without having a turn mode, jump extra high, be carried with 0 STR, etc. Hence it's cosmetic. "Frictionless" would work as a special effect for a power I have in mind (speedster's "Hyper-Throw" power). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack Beyond the hyper-cheese factor of the power construct to begin with, I'd still never ever let that pass. 0-Mass is not Cosmetic IMO. I'll keep this in mind though, when someone next brings up the question of Munchkin Powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack Beyond the hyper-cheese factor of the power construct to begin with, I'd still never ever let that pass. 0-Mass is not Cosmetic IMO. I'll keep this in mind though, when someone next brings up the question of Munchkin Powers. At least the normal KB variant seem a valid Idea. It's the same KB (both average and maximum), AP, DC and Real Cost as a Killing attack/Normal Attack with double KB has, but without 8d6 Normal/2.5d6 Killing Damage. The Transform could be 0-Mass for purposes of knockback, maybe even just for the moment of applying this knockback. Has no game effects beyond that. Or perhaps you power is that you can punch everything Green superfar and that thing just makes them "green for a second". Or it's a "pretty flyer" transform. +2/+2d6 Striking apereance. Or it's "battered flight": You look like you where hit by something that could knock you back by that distance (heals normally). Since you can always reapply a transform (to reset the healing), you can use it as often as you want to. But of course: When KB distance is you target, than throw might be better. When damage is your target, the Normal/Killing attacks are the better choice. Well, the 11d6 with double Knockback - that is definitely cheese. It beats even the best increased KB powers by nearly 50%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack It has nothing to do with DCs, APs or any of that crap. It has to do with, plain and simple, 0-Mass is not "cosmetic" in any way, and that it's total cheese. File under "Because you can doesn't mean you should" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack so shove can now do more than 1" KB? Or have I always been reading that wrong? (entirely possible) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack It has nothing to do with DCs' date=' APs or any of that crap. It has to do with, plain and simple, 0-Mass is not "cosmetic" in any way, and that it's total cheese. File under "Because you can doesn't mean you should"[/quote'] Again: It does the same KB as 8d6 Blast, Double KB or 2.5 d6 Killing Attack, Double KB. For the same prices. The same number of DC. The same place on the sheet. Since you are so hung up on what the transform exaclty is: It gives you +2/+2d6 Striking Aperance (that's clearly listed under cosmetic transform), but the attack also has so much physical power it knocks you back really hard (as if you had been hit by one of the above powers). Just because you can't think of a cosmetic transform or special affect for it, doesn't makes it cheesy. In fact it become so useless, it's an "only does Knockback attack" now, without any damage or relevant effect so the normal KB variant is effectively anti-cheese. That the double KB variant is total cheese is somethign I see too, but more because of balacing than because I can't think of what the transform does or how the SFX works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack The problem isn't that he can't think of a Cosmetic Transform. He's specifically addressing someone's suggestion that 0 mass would qualify for a Cosmetic Transform, (and I happen to aggree). Whether or not he aggrees with using Transform to make a Knockback power is besides the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack The "lower the mass to 0 for the moment of hit" is actually just a SFX. It has no implied or written game effects beside being the reason for this very strong knockback. So, no game effect and no cosmetic effect is actually less than what a cosmetic transform can do. The entire Idea was to actually degrade the Cosmetic Transform to a mere "Knockback Delivery Platform" - a way to get lots of knockback dice. If I pay for 16d6 Comstic Transform + normal Knockback, but only take the Knockback part there is hardly any problem with that. I paid more points for less effect, this can't be cheesy or illegal. Overall it would be nice to have a Knockback Blast Power/Modifiers and I think I ask for that in the APG II thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack Just stubeled about the Optional "Pushback" Rule in APG I, 176: Not unlike Spreading, you trade DC for Knockback Body. The ratio is -1 DC/+2 Knockback Body. (so you effectively Trade 1d6 of Damage for +1 Knockback Body). But it also warns that this could make Increased KB useless (personally I am not so certain, after all the additional Body get's doubeled too). Edit: That sounded not like what I meant. I meant: You trade the Attacks BODY and STUN damage for getting the guaranteed Maximum Body for Knockback purposes. On average every DC brings around 1 Body for KB purposes, but this way every DC bring their maximum Body (2) for KB only. And after that, the normal rolls and doubling for increased KB apply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack It has to do with' date=' plain and simple, 0-Mass is not "cosmetic" in any way[/quote'] Sure it is. It's cosmetic because I said so. This is comic-book physics, not real-world physics. I could also define a Fire Blast in Hero to be Stun Only, notwithstanding the real-world observation that "fire attacks burn things". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack so shove can now do more than 1" KB? Or have I always been reading that wrong? (entirely possible) You have been able to in 5th Ultimate martial artists be able to do more than 1" kb. And I want to say even in the original 4th ultimate martial artist also. But you are correct, in the orgininal Ninja Hero for 4th, you could only do 1" of kb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin2 Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack Cosmetic change = 0 mass!!!! no way. Its about changing appearance (as in cosmetic!). Not changing the laws of physics and coverting matter with a specific gravity of 1 to 0. One of the guidlines is that is has not combat effectivenes effect. Changing mass for KB is a combat effect! Increasing appearance is moving things around so it gets to more like we expects a good looking person to look like. Remove moles, scars etc. Not changing the density of your body so you could increase leaping, get blown away with a slight breeze etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack And for my two cents, Just buy eb (physical) does double knockback, no damage (-1/2), and be done with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack I thought you could Shove more than 1" in 5ER, but I wouldn't swear by it, it's been a while... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack One of the guidlines is that is has not combat effectivenes effect. Changing mass for KB is a combat effect! What you talk about is disabling KB-resistance/applying negative KB-Resistance and maybe giving him Always On flight, UAA (so -1d6 on the KB trhow). That would indeed be beyond a Cosmtic Transform. But nobody ever talked about that and nowhere was said this is more than the SFX of the power, that last exactly for the moment of hitting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Re: Knockback Attack One of the guidlines is that is has not combat effectivenes effect. Changing mass for KB is a combat effect! It's true that cosmetic Transforms are not permitted to cause knockback, but you forgot one of the most important caveats in Hero: "unless a power advantage says otherwise". Not changing the density of your body so you could increase leaping' date=' get blown away with a slight breeze etc[/quote'] Since I said the change in mass has no combat effect, it has no combat effect. Targets cannot increase their leap. They are not blown away by breezes. They can't be carried by 0 STR beings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.