Removing Body (or Stun)

[Drolyt]

It seems to me that having two "hit point" stats to keep track of is too much trouble. For a high powered animesque or superheroic game, or even a heroic one not trying to be too gritty, couldn't you just make all attacks normal attacks and ignore body damage?

Edit: I guess what I'm saying here, is would the game fall apart, and what other changes would be necessary to make it work?

[Greywind]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

1) Have you actually tried playing the system first?

 

2) Different effects are tied to each stat.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

For the purposes of damage (PD, ED type damage) and in a game where you don't need/want to include character death or injury in anything but a superficial manner - removing the BODY score from the equation wouldn't be much of an issue.

 

Consequences you'll want to take into consideration:

Killing Attacks (and Resistant Defenses) become mostly extraneous, as the purpose of a KA is to inflict greater BODY. So you would end up with a game using Normal Attacks only for purposes of Damage.

 

You would still want to keep the BODY Characteristic as a measurement to work against Transforms, but that would all it would be doing at this point, largely ignored.

 

Counting Body: if you're using Knockback you'll need to track it for Normal Damage - otherwise you'll only need to 'count the Body' on effect dice like Flashes to determine their length.

 

Determining Death & Injury: I would wager this style of game would describe injuries, but have no actual effect in game - and Death would either be dramatic only, or you would need to alter the Negative Stun aspect to determine a Death Point (perhaps a -50 Stun would equal Dead).

 

I'm sure some other consequences I've overlooked might come into play.

[Drolyt]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

1) Have you actually tried playing the system first?

 

2) Different effects are tied to each stat.

1) Not yet.

2) Hence my question.

For the purposes of damage (PD, ED type damage) and in a game where you don't need/want to include character death or injury in anything but a superficial manner - removing the BODY score from the equation wouldn't be much of an issue.

 

Consequences you'll want to take into consideration:

Killing Attacks (and Resistant Defenses) become mostly extraneous, as the purpose of a KA is to inflict greater BODY. So you would end up with a game using Normal Attacks only for purposes of Damage.

 

You would still want to keep the BODY Characteristic as a measurement to work against Transforms, but that would all it would be doing at this point, largely ignored.

 

Counting Body: if you're using Knockback you'll need to track it for Normal Damage - otherwise you'll only need to 'count the Body' on effect dice like Flashes to determine their length.

 

Determining Death & Injury: I would wager this style of game would describe injuries, but have no actual effect in game - and Death would either be dramatic only, or you would need to alter the Negative Stun aspect to determine a Death Point (perhaps a -50 Stun would equal Dead).

 

I'm sure some other consequences I've overlooked might come into play.

On Determining Death and Injury, I was thinking death would be dramatic only, with the PCs generally not dying from battle. As for Transforms, I'd probably create an "effective body" that is a fraction of Stun.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

1) Not yet.

2) Hence my question.

 

On Determining Death and Injury, I was thinking death would be dramatic only, with the PCs generally not dying from battle. As for Transforms, I'd probably create an "effective body" that is a fraction of Stun.

 

First, I would play with both Characteristics first - the game is designed around them, and you'll find it's not particularly hard to track either one. Body Damage is rare, Stun Damage is very mobile (you lose and gain Stun moderately rapidly).

 

Second, a suggestion on basing 'effective Body' around Stun: I would give each character 1 Body for every 2 Stun.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

Body & Stun are not Hit Points.

 

Character* Hit Points in AD&D 1st edition represent a combination of how much physical damage can be withstood by a character AND the character's skill at avoiding part of each each damage event**.

*Monsters used Hit Dice which more closely modeled physical toughness more than skill and and as a result had more of a 1 to 1 relation to HERO's Body stat.

**A normal dagger can be used to kill some 1st level characters in just one hit in D&D but has virtually no chance of doing so vs. a 10th level character.

 

Body in HERO represents how much physical damage can be withstood by characters as well as non-living objects. As already mentioned by ghost-angel, it is woven into the system mechanics in many ways besides just determining whether a character dies or not. Heroic level characters in HERO use combat skills (Combat Skill Levels applied to their Defensive Combat Value) or 'super-skills' (extra Physical or Energy Defense or Damage Reduction) to reduce the chance that they get hit in combat or reduce the amount of damage they take when they DO get hit by an attack. This allows for far more flavorful descriptions for effects that would be virtually identical in other systems. A D&D Fighter and a Thief(Rogue) both with 80 hit points are both equally difficult to kill if their Armor Class and Saving throws are equivalent. In HERO the Fighter might have a relatively low DCV but high defenses(enhanced by heavy armor) and high Stun. A HERO Rogue might have a relatively high DCV and average defenses(maybe enhanced by light armor) and Stun. Both might also have exactly the same amount of Body! A dagger that hits an unarmored location of either character could inflict an equal percentage of their Body score. Now actually hitting one of those unarmored locations is a different matter altogether....

[Drolyt]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

Body & Stun are not Hit Points.

 

Character* Hit Points in AD&D 1st edition represent a combination of how much physical damage can be withstood by a character AND the character's skill at avoiding part of each each damage event**.

*Monsters used Hit Dice which more closely modeled physical toughness more than skill and and as a result had more of a 1 to 1 relation to HERO's Body stat.

**A normal dagger can be used to kill some 1st level characters in just one hit in D&D but has virtually no chance of doing so vs. a 10th level character.

 

Body in HERO represents how much physical damage can be withstood by characters as well as non-living objects. As already mentioned by ghost-angel, it is woven into the system mechanics in many ways besides just determining whether a character dies or not. Heroic level characters in HERO use combat skills (Combat Skill Levels applied to their Defensive Combat Value) or 'super-skills' (extra Physical or Energy Defense or Damage Reduction) to reduce the chance that they get hit in combat or reduce the amount of damage they take when they DO get hit by an attack. This allows for far more flavorful descriptions for effects that would be virtually identical in other systems. A D&D Fighter and a Thief(Rogue) both with 80 hit points are both equally difficult to kill if their Armor Class and Saving throws are equivalent. In HERO the Fighter might have a relatively low DCV but high defenses(enhanced by heavy armor) and high Stun. A HERO Rogue might have a relatively high DCV and average defenses(maybe enhanced by light armor) and Stun. Both might also have exactly the same amount of Body! A dagger that hits an unarmored location of either character could inflict an equal percentage of their Body score. Now actually hitting one of those unarmored locations is a different matter altogether....

I mostly agree with all of this. D&D has always had the problem that how stats map to the game reality isn't always obvious. I'm still not clear on what either D&D HP or AC or DR actually represent and I've been playing that game for years. I meant hit points in the general sense of "you have so many, and when you lose them all something bad happens", not trying to suggest a particular game reality. As for my intention, I simply was hoping to roll Body and Stun up into one stat representing "how much punishment you can take before getting knocked out/dying".

[Lucius]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

You would still want to keep the BODY Characteristic as a measurement to work against Transforms, but that would all it would be doing at this point, largely ignored.

 

You could use CON for that.

 

Another consequence to ignoring BODy; you can't destroy stuff. you can't break things. You can't put holes in walls. etc. BOD is the measure of what it takes to kill or destroy something.

 

But it sounds like you're wanting TOON Hero?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that a game without Killing Attacks or Resistant Defenses doesn't sound too bad...

[Greywind]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

Since one represents "knocked out" and the other represents "dying" the system works as is.

[Christopher]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

Actually, Steve Long had some ideas on how to speed combat up by combining STUN and Body into on characterstics just for minor NPC (wich are the ones making the worst work in a lot of fights), or just making them "one-hit wonders".

See 6E2 119 "Stun Damage in Heroic Campaigns".

 

I do know some systems that have no STUN or being Stunned equivalent, and usually they miss something. Same would be true for a system without body equivalent.

Also, Body is much less important than STUN. The average attack does about 3 Times as much STUN as he does BODY (average 3.5 STUN per DC, both normal and Killing without increased Multiplier and Hit Locations).

 

And I am certain that some genres that are even less eadly than Campions have suggestions on how to lower or ignore the body damage altogether

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

For what you are trying to model, it sounds like characters will mostly be taking STUN. If you want to ignore BODY damage, I wouldn't ditch the stat, but I would set defenses to a level where BODY damage almost never happens so you can effectively skip it for damage calculations. That could speed combat without losing the utility of BODY so you can keep it for the dramatic moments when people might actually die (from truly massive damage or a NND Does BODY attack that bypasses defenses) or for Transforms, object destruction, or other effects based on BODY.

[Susano]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

I think that in most supers game, death is a non-issue. If you use mostly Normal Attacks, you're not going to be doing a lot of BODY damage to PCs and NPCs. On the other hand, if you remove BODY, you as has been stated, end up unable to destroy things and/or put holes in walls and the like. Also, once you start playing, I think you'll find the stats aren't that big of a deal and not a lot of trouble to keep track of.

[Christopher]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

And what's the point of Killing attacks then?

In 6E they were re-aligned to do the same amount of STUN vs. the same amount of Defense as normal, but way more BODY.

 

Once you have 2 normal and rDEF per DC (relative to the DC Cap), you won't take any normal Body Damage (unless haymaker is used) but still 2/3 of the STUN. So in order to do BODY, you have to use Killing Attacks. And for Minor NPC's, just use the rules for speeding up the combat (i.e. count BODY and STUN recieved vs a single pool made up of his BODY adn STUN).

 

When minor NPC's with Gun and Knives (Killing Attacks) are the problem, just convert the DC 1:1 in normal Damage or use some of the other sugestions from 6E2 201 (Toolkitting: Weapon damage, genre by genre).

[Greywind]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

Following genre conventions in a Champions game death, even if it happens, is a non-issue. Nobody ever truly stays dead anymore. Not even Bucky.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

And what's the point of Killing attacks then?

In 6E they were re-aligned to do the same amount of STUN vs. the same amount of Defense as normal, but way more BODY.

 

Once you have 2 normal and rDEF per DC (relative to the DC Cap), you won't take any normal Body Damage (unless haymaker is used) but still 2/3 of the STUN. So in order to do BODY, you have to use Killing Attacks. And for Minor NPC's, just use the rules for speeding up the combat (i.e. count BODY and STUN recieved vs a single pool made up of his BODY adn STUN).

 

When minor NPC's with Gun and Knives (Killing Attacks) are the problem, just convert the DC 1:1 in normal Damage or use some of the other sugestions from 6E2 201 (Toolkitting: Weapon damage, genre by genre).

 

Actually the were re-tooled to do less stun on average, not the same and they do slightly more (not "massive" ammounts) of Body, just like they did in prior editions.

[dmjalund]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

"Nobody could have survived that!"

 

"Of course they could - they removed BODY remember"

[Christopher]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

Actually the were re-tooled to do less stun on average' date=' not the same and they do slightly more (not "massive" ammounts) of Body, just like they did in prior editions.[/quote']

Then how do they work in your games? Perhaos the house rule helps for this.

 

"Nobody could have survived that!"

 

"Of course they could - they removed BODY remember"

"I'll bring you back to where this is only a flesh wound" - Last Action Hero

[ghost-angel]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

When Killing Attacks were looked at for 6th Edition the general criteria were to have then do ~20% less Stun and ~20% more Body on a DC for DC basis than Normal Atracks.

 

Bloody Killing Attacks... I'll be in the corner drowning my memories of the entire topic in whiskey now.

[Christopher]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

When Killing Attacks were looked at for 6th Edition the general criteria were to have then do ~20% less Stun and ~20% more Body on a DC for DC basis than Normal Atracks.

I had to go through the math to check that for myself. Let's asume 12 DC Attacks:

12d6 Normal Attack can do 0-24 BODY and 12-72 STUN. Average is: 12 BODY, 42 STUN

4d6 Killing Attack can do 4-24 BODY and 4-72 STUN. Average is: 14 BODY, 28 STUN; But the body can only be stopped by a part of your defenses (that are 50% more expensive shouldn't make up more than 50-75% of your overall def).

[Drolyt]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

What's confusing me, is that looking at page 35 of the character creation book, the recommended rDef totals for superheroic games, compared to the recommended damage classes for superheroic games of the same power level, mean that even killing attacks aren't likely to deal any BODY, even if you roll relatively high. Am I doing something wrong?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

What's confusing me' date=' is that looking at page 35 of the character creation book, the recommended rDef totals for superheroic games, compared to the recommended damage classes for superheroic games of the same power level, mean that even killing attacks aren't likely to deal [i']any[/i] BODY, even if you roll relatively high. Am I doing something wrong?

 

Yes.

 

from the quoted page:

Standard Superheroic

DC:6-14 Def/rDef 20-25/12-18

 

14 Damage Classes of Killing Damage equates to a 4 1/2d6 Killing Attack which will average 15.5 Body which is right in the middle of the quoted range of Resistant Defenses (12-18).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

I had to go through the math to check that for myself. Let's asume 12 DC Attacks:

12d6 Normal Attack can do 0-24 BODY and 12-72 STUN. Average is: 12 BODY, 42 STUN

4d6 Killing Attack can do 4-24 BODY and 4-72 STUN. Average is: 14 BODY, 28 STUN; But the body can only be stopped by a part of your defenses (that are 50% more expensive shouldn't make up more than 50-75% of your overall def).

 

Being part of the design process for Killing Attacks was more than enough undying pain than I ever care to repeat. I did the math then, I will never repeat it, I came just short of deleting the spreadsheets and emails. I'm sorry, just take my word - It Works In Play Just Fine.

 

I'm never ever ever (EVER) getting into another discussion on Killing Attacks. And it's off topic for this thread.

 

Bloody KAs.

[Christopher]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

What's confusing me' date=' is that looking at page 35 of the character creation book, the recommended rDef totals for superheroic games, compared to the recommended damage classes for superheroic games of the same power level, mean that even killing attacks aren't likely to deal [i']any[/i] BODY, even if you roll relatively high. Am I doing something wrong?

 

14 Damage Classes of Killing Damage equates to a 4 1/2d6 Killing Attack which will average 15.5 Body which is right in the middle of the quoted range of Resistant Defenses (12-18).

And you should consider that the 18 Point rDEF end is more for Bicks, than your usual martial artist, ep, mentalist or support Magician (who tend to be rather on the 20/12 point end. So they can even take BODY from 14DC normal attacks).

 

And the DC limit doesn't inlcude Haymaker, that you could use against an entangeled target without much problems.

 

Edit: At least when you use the rules. Some around here go even higher with defenses.

[Tasha]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

What's confusing me' date=' is that looking at page 35 of the character creation book, the recommended rDef totals for superheroic games, compared to the recommended damage classes for superheroic games of the same power level, mean that even killing attacks aren't likely to deal [i']any[/i] BODY, even if you roll relatively high. Am I doing something wrong?

 

Yep that is correct. In a Supers game it is a pretty rare occurance for a Super to take body. It usually takes a Suceptability or Vulnerability (both Complications) to feed a super any Body Damage. ie a Faerie might have a 2x Vulnerability to cold Iron vs Body, Superman has a 3d6 Suceptability to Kryptonite. After he is KOed by the effect he starts to take body as well. The faerie is hit by a 4d6 KA Cold Iron Sword, the Rolled Dmg is 14 body which doubles to 28 body which is 10 more body than the 18rDef she has. As pointed out, in a Supers game BODY is used extensively in dealing damage to the environment. ie Super gets Knocked back into a wall, BODY and DEF of the wall is used to figure out of the Super is knocked through the wall or not. Body is an important part of the game. Separating the damage that kills you from the damage that just knocks you unconscious is one of the great strengths of the Hero System. Combining the two just turns the game into a muddy game like D&D.

[Christopher]

Re: Removing Body (or Stun)

 

Yep that is correct. In a Supers game it is a pretty rare occurance for a Super to take body. It usually takes a Suceptability or Vulnerability (both Complications) to feed a super any Body Damage. ie a Faerie might have a 2x Vulnerability to cold Iron vs Body' date=' Superman has a 3d6 Suceptability to Kryptonite. After he is KOed by the effect he starts to take body as well. The faerie is hit by a 4d6 KA Cold Iron Sword, the Rolled Dmg is 14 body which doubles to 28 body which is 10 more body than the 18rDef she has. As pointed out, in a Supers game BODY is used extensively in dealing damage to the environment. ie Super gets Knocked back into a wall, BODY and DEF of the wall is used to figure out of the Super is knocked through the wall or not. Body is an important part of the game. Separating the damage that kills you from the damage that just knocks you unconscious is one of the great strengths of the Hero System. Combining the two just turns the game into a muddy game like D&D.[/quote']

Would rep you, but I can't.

 

That is indeed a big strenght. Just consider how one of the comabants recieved STUN (enough to STUN/KO) and how often they recieved BODY in this story:

 

Or most other Superman Storys for that matter. He never takes BODY (or has enough of it/enough Regeneration to take it). But that not so true for the environment in a decent fight between supermann and an equal foe.