Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

[Ttebroc]

I am playing in a Dark Sun Heroes game; The rules are based on Heroes 5th Revised Core Book. My character recently died; that was my first with the system and I am wondering if my next character is broken.

 

For the basics (150) point Character

Penalty skill level Called Shot head +8 24pts

Dex 23 (OCV 8 DCV 8) 48pts

Combat Luck 3/3 6pts

Combat skill 18pts

I am not sure if we are using this rule right but our GM lets us purchase combat skill levels one time each so I purchased each level for a total of 18 points.

 

For a total OCV of 12 DCV 9 and no negative for called shot head is this broken?

 

PS. Does anyone know of a beginner character sheet that doesn't use abbreviations such as DCV and spells out all the important formulas.

 

My thanks,

 

Corbett

[Steve Long]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

This seems to be a request for discussion/advice, so I've moved it to the Discussion board.

[Christopher]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

How common is Head-Protection in the Scenario? What weapons is he using?

 

When he can fire of Head Shot Killing attacks with no problems, then just consider him doing that much damage as a "normal attack" (since it is normal for him).

I only have 6E, but there a headshot is 2 times BODY, 2 times normal STUN, 5 Times Killing Stun.

When you fire this of with a 4 DC Blast, I would consider that as an 8 DC attack.

With 4 DC Killing attacks, I would consider it even more (due to the higher STUN multiplier).

 

For the CV's the question is, if 12 and 9 are still inside the campaign limits for CV's. And at 150 Points I doubt that...

 

Edit: I asked a similar Question about CSL's with DC/CV Caps here

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

Whether it's "broken" depends on the game it's played in. Most games set OCV, DCV and damage class caps, or at least guidelines. Does this character breach them?

 

So far, he has spent 96 of 150 points. Tack on another 7 for a 4 SPD and we're up to 103. His defenses aren't great, he has base level Body and STUN, and a 10 Strength and CON. And he lacks familiarity with any weapons. He has no noncombat skills, and is a pretty focused combatant.

 

Let's assume that, once we build him up, he will have a weapon that can achieve a 2d6 killing attack. Because he spent 24 points on penalty skill levels, he will take head shots. He'll average 7 BOD (whatever gets past defenses is doubled) and 35 STUN.

 

For the same 24 points, I expect he could have had Deadly Blow at 2d6 with all HTH weapons, or all ranged, weapons, and been doing 4d6 KA. He;d average 14 BOD and 37 1/3 STUN, and have the chance of a much higher (or much lower) result, thanks to stun multiples.

 

The Deadly Blow build means he has to choose between ranged and HTH combat. He's better at cutting through armor (effectively, rDEF counts double against BODY damage for the PSL build). The PSL choice means he becomes much less potent if the target has no hit locations so all shots do x3 STUN and normal body damage (this is a common ability for undead, constructs and other creatures with no weak spots - in D&D parlance, creatures immune to critical hits).

 

I'm not sure how he gets OCV 12 and DCV 9. That's 5 points added to his base numbers, implying 5 skill levels. Assuming these are 3 point skill levels, they apply to only one weapon, so the character will be disadvantaged with other weapons, mitigating the advantage that the PSL build allows him to use head shots both in HTH or at range.

 

There's lots of builds I would consider equally powerful that can be built with a similar investment of points. The real question is how he stacks up against the other characters in the game, and what the game's guidelines for CV, damage, etc. are.

 

By way of comparison, your character hit with your own attack will take 8 Body damage (7 - 3 combat luck = 4, doubled) and 30 STUN (35 less 3 combat luck less 2 PD).

 

Use the 4d6 Deadly Blow and he takes 11 Body (14-3) and about 32 Stun (37-5) on average.

 

Of course, this assumes no armor or other defensive enhancements, but offense powers that extreme tend to result in glass canon characters - whoever shoots first takes down the target,

[Lucius]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

I'm not sure how he gets OCV 12 and DCV 9.

 

I am not sure if we are using this rule right but our GM lets us purchase combat skill levels one time each so I purchased each level for a total of 18 points.

 

I'm trying to puzzle this out...

assuming 5th edition

 

All combat: 8 pts

+1 DCV: 5 pts

Tight Group: 3 pts

+1 OCV w/ weapon: 2 pts

 

So far I get OCV 11 and DCV 9 assuming the flexible levels are put in OCV.

 

My impression, without seeing the rest of the character, is that it's either a "glass cannon" as Mr. Neilson says, or it could get a little overpowering. But my advice is try it out and see. A lot depends on what the rest of the game looks like. If you meet a lot of headless monsters (or monsters only mildly inconvenienced by decapitation) fo example....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary would be very upset if you cut off one of its heads

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

Everyone else's builds matter a lot too. Maybe everyone spends 125+ points on combat abilities, with one or two high powered areas of focus, and this will fit in fine.

 

What does the GM, and/or a player helping integrate the new guy into the game, think?

[RexMundi]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

I'm trying to look at it from a character point of view. Why has this PC developed insane skill level, with hitting people in the head, with only one attack? Without knowing more character detail beyond numbers and end combat effect, I'd as a GM, would most likly toss that character back in the pot call it an Alpha Strike Munchkin and say rebuild it with some depth.

 

I use penalty skill levels extensively with most of my characters, so I can actually look at this one trick pony, consider the setting, and come up with depth to justify it, but as it is right now, it just looks like an Alpha Strike Munchkin. Need more details. Topic wise. No it doesn't break the rules but it's a chunk of points invested in a one trick pony set up, that can come back to haunt you badly in play, especially in a Dark Sun campaign. Remember anything you put on your sheet, adds to the GM's arsenal as well.

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

After some thinking:

A called shot in the Head with 4 DC (and apropirate CSL's to be as easy as a normal shot) and a Attack with 8 DC, Reduced Penetartion should come out as pretty much the same.

Well, you might have to include increased STUN for a Killing Attack, but overall...

 

And I totally forgot, that the STUN Multiplier for Killing Replaces the normal 1/2d6 Throw when Hit Locations are used.

[Tasha]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

I am playing in a Dark Sun Heroes game; The rules are based on Heroes 5th Revised Core Book. My character recently died; that was my first with the system and I am wondering if my next character is broken.

 

For the basics (150) point Character

Penalty skill level Called Shot head +8 24pts

Dex 23 (OCV 8 DCV 8) 48pts

Combat Luck 3/3 6pts

Combat skill 18pts

I am not sure if we are using this rule right but our GM lets us purchase combat skill levels one time each so I purchased each level for a total of 18 points.

 

For a total OCV of 12 DCV 9 and no negative for called shot head is this broken?

 

PS. Does anyone know of a beginner character sheet that doesn't use abbreviations such as DCV and spells out all the important formulas.

 

My thanks,

 

Corbett

 

We don't allow that many PSL's vs Hit Location. For a regular Heroic level game we only allow 2-3 PSLs vs hit location. This allows a steady called shot to the Chest, but still makes other called shots difficult. Called shots to the head are pretty powerful and are best when you can't do them routinely.

 

You can buy as many CSL's as you like (ie 2 Overall Levels (16pts), 5 levels with Blades (15pts)) the idea is to stay within campaign limits.

 

You have so many points invested in combat stuff, I wonder what your characer does when he isn't killing someone. Also you have wasted a ton of points in buying your dex above the Normal Characteristic Maximums (NCM).

 

So yes your character is broken under most campaigns that use the 150pt limit. Pg 28 of the 5th Ed Revised (5ER) has the Character ability Guidelines Table. That should help you get your character into the right powerlevel ball park. Oh and on the next page it has the "Optional Character Design Guidelines" take a look at that to help you design a more balanced character.

 

Also in my Signature I have a link to a Post I made about creating Hero System Characters. It will help you design something that isn't too powerful and isn't too wimpy. The guidelines are made for 6e, but can be used for any edition of the rules.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/82091-My-character-building-technique-%28How-to-build-Hero-System-Characters%29?p=2077452#post2077452

[Ttebroc]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

So everyone knows were I am coming from; I am new to the system and was unaware of the page that gave Character Ability Guidelines. I was aware of a active power level but for the rest of the stuff I wasn't necessary for my first character. That alone clears up a lot; and my thanks to everyone for your help.

 

 

As for the character concept I hadn't developed a back story but I am creative enough with mechanics that I was confident I could explain any ability. To answer some other questions if anyone was curious the game master wasn't aware of this character concept because it was in-between sessions as for the new character all the characters and for the most part players were new to the system.

 

 

This does bring up another question on page 28 of 5e; it stated that an average skill level should be maxed out at 13; given attributes average is 10 this would mean that no skill should have over a +2 modifier; do most or any of you apply this as a limit to other skills that don't directly effect the Character Ability Guidelines.

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Corbett

[Lucius]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

So everyone knows were I am coming from; I am new to the system and was unaware of the page that gave Character Ability Guidelines. I was aware of a active power level but for the rest of the stuff I wasn't necessary for my first character. That alone clears up a lot; and my thanks to everyone for your help.

 

 

As for the character concept I hadn't developed a back story but I am creative enough with mechanics that I was confident I could explain any ability. To answer some other questions if anyone was curious the game master wasn't aware of this character concept because it was in-between sessions as for the new character all the characters and for the most part players were new to the system.

 

 

This does bring up another question on page 28 of 5e; it stated that an average skill level should be maxed out at 13; given attributes average is 10 this would mean that no skill should have over a +2 modifier; do most or any of you apply this as a limit to other skills that don't directly effect the Character Ability Guidelines.

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Corbett

 

For player characters that strikes me as a little low. I would not be too surprised to see, say, a player character in a heroic game with INT 18, and at least one Level that applies to INT based skills, making those skills <=14.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the palindromedary is heroic at one end and superheroic at the other

[Tasha]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

I don't usually limit characters Non combat skill rolls. I kind of like seeing PC make their Skill rolls by a ton when they roll decently. With a beginning character I would stick to base rolls for the Non Combat skills and perhaps buy one or two up with Skill levels or via raw skill rolls.

 

I would highly recommend purchasing a copy of 5e Fantasy Hero. It was a perfect bound soft cover. It can further help you by supplying Templates for Character Type (ie Warrior, Ranger, Mage etc) and Race. It also talks about magic system design and has some spells already made up. Also picking up the older Grimoire books will help with Spell ideas. eBay is your best source for 5e FH, and 5e Grimoire hard copies. If you were playing 6e I would recommend the new edition that is in the online store.

[Christopher]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

I don't usually limit characters Non combat skill rolls. I kind of like seeing PC make their Skill rolls by a ton when they roll decently. With a beginning character I would stick to base rolls for the Non Combat skills and perhaps buy one or two up with Skill levels or via raw skill rolls.

6E has some sugestiosn here:

Depending on how hard the Skill caps are and if your gm allows it, Complementary Skills and PSL's (optional rule for Skill Modifiers) can be very helpfull here.

 

The INT problem even gets worse in 6E superheroic games (INT 50 Limit and 15- Skill Limit are somewhat incompatible), but here it may depend on how combat relevant the skills are (i.e. if you have a INT-based Power Skill for your Powers or Frameworks, that can be used/changed in combat).

[RexMundi]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

Yeah not sure why the INT and family blew into the 50 range for limits, considering the mass carnage that inflicts upon the scale of the complementary rolls. The first thing I did when I scripted out my new campaign was reign those mental stats down to the same level as the rest of the stats.

 

My limits are based on justification of concept, hence, everycharacter is different.

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

Yeah not sure why the INT and family blew into the 50 range for limits' date=' considering the mass carnage that inflicts upon the scale of the complementary rolls. The first thing I did when I scripted out my new campaign was reign those mental stats down to the same level as the rest of the stats.[/quote']

For EGO and PRE I can understand the 50 point cap (since they are the only/primary defense vs. some xd6 Attacks).

 

But there is also the suggestion to cap the Complementary Rolls Effect at +2 or+3, and "50 INT guy" seems like the right time to implement it (especially with the right Skill Enhanchers).

[RexMundi]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

Yeah but by the established scale, and then even, looking at the benifits to having those stats, it makes no sense for everything else to cap out at 30 and 31 being the bump for true super human, to have the mental stats end up being that much higher.

 

Becomes a glaring question when you look at some of the examples per stat even. INT runs a pile of skills, up to an including skills that have serious game effects. It shouldn't have a cap 20 points higher then DEX, which costs twice as much. And again that's before taking a hard look at some of the examples listed for said stats in the first place, Defense's considered or Otherwise (and especially since the PD/ED stuff craps out even lower on any of the presented scales.....)

 

My Campaign though running with a full 400 point set up is far more Heroic in structure then Super Heroic, hence, this range between 20-30, is very important for a lot of building set up's....So, if the Average IQ of a human is 100, and in HERO the Average Int of a starting PC before dropping points in the can, is a 10, if 50 is the cut off point in INT for true Super Human, then that means, up to a 500 IQ is the break point, and even E.E. "Doc" Smith didn't go that high for Kimball Kinnison and limits weren't really in that man's writing vocabulary, heh.

 

Anyway back to Penalty Skill levels, I'll save the rest of my stat stuff for my campaign thread I plan to get around to in a week or so.......

 

Penalty Skill Levels Are you Friend. They're a great way to add depth to stuff without having to go Insane on the Stat figuring. They can get out of hand though if you allow them to be twisted and shaped into Uber Munchkin Builds that take the worse of the Stat Habits then combine them with everything that can get them over. Well used in builds that don't run off screaming into Munchkin land, they add a lot of flavor and versatility on scene for a lot of different types of characters, without having to break the point bank to do so.

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

About the I.Q.: We had this discussion in the latest COM vs Striking Apereance Thread. One of the results is:

It is not an objective measurement. It's a scale that get's calibrated with a 1000 Person group so that 95% of all people will fall into the the 70-130 Points region. The average Person has an I.Q. of 100 since they define that the average person is at 100.

Your example will at best be around 200, since the scale stops there (I guess. It wasn't stated on Wikipedia). And if he ever is one of the 1000, he will just detect as a 200 (by simply answering anything right).

[RexMundi]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

Right but again, in terms of the game itself there is no reason for it to cap at 50 while it's equivilants in other areas cap at 30. It's Mis-scaled mechanically speaking, but easily fixed by a house rule and of course, the previous Average Conjecture example. If you want to work way to much into it, it gets messy, and messy isn't the point of words like Average. The Average STR in HERO is a 10 STR, but if I walk into the Office here at my complex and hand the Landlord 200 pounds of metal, they're going straight to the floor. For a game, it's a FINE average, for the world, it's a tad high, heh.

 

That's before you get into the naysayers that always decry a system of measurement that puts them in a box they don't agree with.

 

Anyway, as far as the topic goes, and we can move this Int stuff to another thread if I find the time and inclination to cobble up a thread on comparitive scale, I've noticed Penelty Skill Levels are far more effective in stacks of smaller effects, then going for the Munchkin Alpha Strike style of PSL buy outs. Tends to make for a more rounded character as well, a few PSL's for Hit Locations, A Few for Range Modifiers, a Few for buying off DCV penelties for other types of moves, all those points piled into ONE giant PSL buy for one thing, doesn't give you the versatility and depth that having them spread out over several different subjects so to speak.

 

Nuking it all into one big pile though can be a game breaker, +8 PSL's vs Hit Locations all Attacks example ......PSL's can be pretty cheap so you gotta kinda watch them.

 

~Rex....says the Foot wasn't an objective measurement either, but it's worked well enough for a long time. If it gets the job done, and it balances, it's good enough.

[Christopher]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

Right but again' date=' in terms of the game itself there is no reason for it to cap at 50 while it's equivilants in other areas cap at 30. It's Mis-scaled mechanically speaking, but easily fixed by a house rule and of course, the previous Average Conjecture example. If you want to work way to much into it, it gets messy, and messy isn't the point of words like Average. The Average STR in HERO is a 10 STR, but if I walk into the Office here at my complex and hand the Landlord 200 pounds of metal, they're going straight to the floor. For a game, it's a FINE average, for the world, it's a tad high, heh.[/quote']

he doesn't has a STR of 10, from hero system point of view. Ausming he is not elderly, his STR will be around 5-8. 10 is only for heroic characters and frankly none of us is really "hero material"

[RexMundi]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

We're not talking about Us, we're talking any Sheet you start a Character with in the game. 10's the starting average number, for those stats, not 5-8. Even that's just to show you, that 10's not a bad place to be in comparission as there are lots of Below Average folks in the world running around.....

 

Seriously, we can continue this in another thread or PM's if you like, you've got some good points. I just don't want to flood the PSL info back and forth with Perspective presentations on Comparitive scale. Especially when we're not even comparing Apples to Apples.

 

Going back to the PSL thing. What's some of the PSL combo's others have cobbled up. Right about now I tend to run with at least 4 hit Location levels in a large group for my Martial Artist types, and if they use ranged weapons as well, usually at least 2 range levels, and then a few PSL's for things to adjust DCV penelties for things such as ground fighting and or Multiple Attacks. So others roll this way as well, or is the tendancy to lump in for Higher PSL's, with less of a spread of coverage?

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

Perhaps it is a good idea to cap PSL at half the penalty they are compensating. At least when used for something like targetting, where the modifiers get lower than -3 (-3 is the value for off hand or blocking weapons unarmed).

[RexMundi]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

Perhaps it is a good idea to cap PSL at half the penalty they are compensating. At least when used for something like targetting' date=' where the modifiers get lower than -3 (-3 is the value for off hand or blocking weapons unarmed).[/quote']

 

Now that's not a bad Idea and pretty close to what I try and do.......question is, do you scale it per level of Genre, or leave it flat for all? If you scale it it makes it attractive in the face full blown advantages and such, but then it's a matter of setting that scale....

 

Food for thought though.

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

The basic OCV/DC Limits are already part of the genre, so I wouldn't bother about it.

4 OCV with 6 DC is a great difference to 13 OCV and 14 DC. Especially since the first one can hardly afford a -3/-4 to attack Rolls in combat, even if he neagtes half the malus for a targetted attack to the head

[RexMundi]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

True that, so it would work with a half penalty cap so to speak, or at least a soft cap as a guideline for an initial build to allow for growth later. Solid structure, should work.

 

~Rex

[Vondy]

Re: Penalty Skill Level (Breaking the System)

 

I top PSLs out at +4 per category in most games.

 

A character who declares a "high shot" still has very good odds of a head-shot.