Extra DCV vs penalties

[Steve]

Is it possible in 6th edition to buy extra DCV that can only be used to offset combat penalties? If so, how much would the limitation value be?

 

Example: Character has a DCV of 6. He wants to do a multiple attack, which drops his DCV to 3. Wanting to be better at defending himself while doing so, he buys +6 DCV that can only be used to offset multiple attack penalties. His full DCV is 6, and it would still be 6 after being halved when doing a multiple attack.

[Escafarc]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

Since you can't buy PSLs to off-set the penalties. I'm not sure I would allow that Limitation on DCV or regular CSLs

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

Yeah, buy it as a PSL, and keep in mind halving occurs after all bonuses.

[Escafarc]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

Yeah' date=' buy it as a PSL, and keep in mind halving occurs [i']after[/i] all bonuses.

You can't buy PSLs to off-set combat maneuver pentalies(don't have my books handy but I'm pretty sure that's in there) you have to use CSLs. I beleive Steve has answered this up in the HS questions section.

[Christopher]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

You have to buy normal DCV, with a limitation.

 

And like was said, the halving is at the end of everythign else.

 

There is now way to do this with PSL's or Limited CSL's (such limitations on CSL are forbidden).

[Steve]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

The reason I didn't ask about PSLs was due to my understanding that they did not affect DCV.

 

Since OCV/DCV/OMCV/DMCV are now characteristics in their own right in 6th edition, limited forms of them seem reasonable for trying to replicate certain effects. Buying a limited form of DCV seems more straightforward (to me) as well.

 

Consider a cinematic martial artist that is good at dealing with multiple enemies. I could buy his SPD and DCV really high, but that raises movement rate issues and is a little too superhuman.

 

Instead, I could buy him a more modest SPD of 4 or 5, rapid Attack and some limited DCV. That would let him fight multiple opponents with a skill like a cinema martial artist.

 

Since I would have to buy an additional limited DCV for every point of regular DCV (because of the DCV halving rule for making multiple attacks), a -1/2 to -1 Limitation seems reasonable.

[Christopher]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

Consider a cinematic martial artist that is good at dealing with multiple enemies. I could buy his SPD and DCV really high' date=' but that raises movement rate issues and is a little too superhuman.[/quote']

Autofire/AOE Attack + Defense Maneuver is the easier way to go here. HSMA has some examples of such powers.

 

Edit: You can just take the overall AP of a Martial Maneuver (Basis+STR+Bonucs DC times 5) and apply Naked Advanatges to it. Also in HSMA.

 

Edit2: Such a Punch (Autofire for up to 10d6) is actually the first thing you find in Realistic Martial Arts.

[Escafarc]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

I wouldn't go any more than -1/2

[Steve]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

Buying advantages on martial arts attacks limits the flexibility some. Consider this example from the rulebooks (book 2, I think), making a multiple attack by combining Martial Strike, Offensive Strike and Defensive Strike. Both visually and game mechanics-wise, that does not have the same feel as buying autofire on Martial Strike.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

Buy Limited DCV. GM will decide how much that Limit is ultimately worth.

 

For "Only When Making A Multiple Attack" I might be inclined to say that's -1.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

I wouldn't give it a very large limitation, because it's something the character is going to want to do a lot. He wouldn't be trying to reduce the penalties if he wasn't planning on doing it frequently. 1/2 probably sounds right.

[Christopher]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

Buying advantages on martial arts attacks limits the flexibility some. Consider this example from the rulebooks (book 2' date=' I think), making a multiple attack by combining Martial Strike, Offensive Strike and Defensive Strike. Both visually and game mechanics-wise, that does not have the same feel as buying autofire on Martial Strike.[/quote']

Naked Group Advantages are your friend here. Just buy it for all Martial Strikes up to X active Points, like you would do with double Knockback.

Also, the combination above is relatively useless. You have to use the worst of OCV and DCV Modifiers anyway (6E2 76 and 77), so there is no reason to make this combination (the example is actually to show you that it is as unsound tactical decission).

Only when you really need to combine different MA Maneuvers/Powers (Like Punch and Grab) in the same Phase, then Multiattack is the way to go. But overall it's just when you are totally superior anyway or don't have autofire in the first place.

Autofire is to Multiattack like a Martial Maneuver is to his Normal Counterpart: Simply the better choice (no DCV halving, no Full Phase and the penalty can easily be only -1 per two targets).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

Naked Group Advantages are your friend here. Just buy it for all Martial Strikes up to X active Points' date=' like you would do with double Knockback.[/quote']

 

Technically, illegal - there are rules for buying Advantages on Martial Maneuvers in the HS Martial Arts book, they are Naked Advantages, but you must buy them Per Maneuver. Unless the GM decides to change the rules to do otherwise.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

I think extra DCV with a limitation, but you could always buy some type of skill level.

 

I wouldn't give it a very large limitation' date=' because it's something the character is going to want to do a lot. He wouldn't be trying to reduce the penalties if he wasn't planning on doing it frequently. 1/2 probably sounds right.[/quote']

 

I think any limitation needs to be commensurate with what is given up. +3 DCV all the time is pretty nice. It's better than +3 DCV only some of the time, so there should be a limitation. Looks like we agree on this point.

 

If we set the limitation at -1/2, is that "only to offset penalties and when DCV halved"? That seems reasonable. There's lots of beneficial things we can do that reduce DCV.

 

But then if the levels are "only to offset DCV penalties" or "only when DCV halved", that's more limited, so it seems reasonable it should have a higher limitation.

 

And if they only apply to bring my DCV back up if I multiple attack, that should be an even bigger limitation, since it's even more restricted, shouldn't it?

 

If all three are -1/2, I may as well take the levels to offset all DCV penalties and halving, right?

 

Hmmm "only when DCV is penalized or halved" levels could be used to have a higher DCV when penalized or halved if you buy enough of them. That's less limited than just offsetting the reductions.

 

Take a look at the "environmental movement" talent - that has DCV only used to offset penalties in specific environments, so that may be a base for how Steve interprets limited DCV.

[Christopher]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

Technically' date=' illegal - there are rules for buying Advantages on Martial Maneuvers in the HS Martial Arts book, they are Naked Advantages, but you must buy them Per Maneuver. Unless the GM decides to change the rules to do otherwise.[/quote']

Right, forgot that. However:

Since you can't use PSL's anywhere in Multi Attack and the sheer amount you have to buy for defense and offense to offset all, you will still get ahead by just buying Autofire 5 for 2-3 Attacks. And it only takes a halve Action to use.

What little bit of need for combinations you still have can then simply be done with a Multiattack, i.e. Martial Trip + Autofire Punch/Kick.

 

And don't fogot that the limitations will get less worth the more you offset the modifiers (when you have little END Cost and No OCV or DCV penalty while Multiatacking, you can do this always and thus it becomes a very common attack).

[Steve]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

I'd rep Hugh for his thoughts, but I need to spread rep, etc.

 

The idea of using environmental movement as a basis for judging costs is an interesting idea.

 

It sound like extra DCV that only offsets penalties and can't be used to increase it above normal levels is a reasonable construct to do, assuming I read correctly what Hugh and GA commented.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

So I have apparently missed something important, as I use PSL's for OCV and DCV all the time.

 

My understanding - perhaps incorrect - is that a CSL is essentially "+X Combat Value" with a limitation combined with "+ X Damage Classes" with limitation... and PSL's are essentially CSL's with a further "Limited Power" or "Conditional Power" limitation...

 

I suppose I don't understand why this would be illegal given the nature of Skill Levels.

 

I have also built several characters with PSL's vs. certain combat maneuver penalties - like "+2 OCV Only to Offset Autofire Penalties" - and never really had much problems with it.

[Christopher]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

PSL are specially designed/balanced to counter Penalties. They are not identical or limited forms of (Combat)Skill Levels.

 

Also, the halving or set to 0 (-100%) aren't penalties and always go last (after any penalteis and thus PSL's). The books encourage to not let players circumvent those modifiers. Putting Limitations on CSL's is also forbidden (at least for things like "only for OCV/DCV/DC" or things like "only when doing X"; Focus examples exist).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

Actually, PSLs are Limited CSLs specific to offsetting OCV Penalties. It's just all behind the scenes.

 

The Ultimate Skill talks about using PSLs for DCV Penalties (and specifically cites Environment Movement Talents as an example); I don't see a particular problem with using PSLs this way at all.

 

IMO - the Book should be completely ignored on how to limit CSLs and what to do with PSLs.

PSLs are effectively Limited Only To Offset OCV Penalties

Environmental Movement is effectively Limited Only To Offset DCV Penalties

Deadly Blow/Weapon Master are effectively Limited Only To Add Damage Classes

 

It's all over the place "unofficially" and I recommend making it official and setting values as you see fit. The "rules" are setting a bad example by trying to lock it down in this case.

[Steve]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

I re-read the section in 6th edition about PSLs, and it is different from what I thought I understood concerning DCV uses. Can someone point me to a statement in the rulebooks or an answer from Mr. Long that says specifically that the DCV penalty can't be dealt with by using PSLs?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

I re-read the section in 6th edition about PSLs' date=' and it is different from what I thought I understood concerning DCV uses. Can someone point me to a statement in the rulebooks or an answer from Mr. Long that says specifically that the DCV penalty can't be dealt with by using PSLs?[/quote']

 

See: The Ultimate Skill; under Penalty Skill Levels. It's given as a possible suggestion for expanding their usage (with warnings of GM Permission and all that).

[Steve]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

See: The Ultimate Skill; under Penalty Skill Levels. It's given as a possible suggestion for expanding their usage (with warnings of GM Permission and all that).

 

6th edition listed uses for PSLs for DCV such as encumbrance. When you speak of Ultimate Skill, do you mean the new version for 6th?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

6th edition listed uses for PSLs for DCV such as encumbrance. When you speak of Ultimate Skill' date=' do you mean the new version for 6th?[/quote']

 

5E Ultimate Skill p248-249 "Penalty Skill Levels For DCV and Skills" - first paragraph discusses some of the uses DefPSLs already done (Environmental Movement, and some Talents); and the idea of using them elsewhere - no specific examples are given, just a word of caution and the actual words "defensive PSLs".

 

6E Ultimate Skill p249 has a much more extensive look at the idea. Citing "Groundfighting", "Encumberance", and "Environmental Movement" as possible examples.

[Christopher]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

I re-read the section in 6th edition about PSLs' date=' and it is different from what I thought I understood concerning DCV uses. Can someone point me to a statement in the rulebooks or an answer from Mr. Long that says specifically that the DCV penalty can't be dealt with by using PSLs?[/quote']

Here is what I got:

6E2 34, "Calculating CV". The sequence says it comes last, thus implying that it is not a modifier.

6E1 84: "Nor can he buy OPSLs to counteract the standard OCV penalty imposed by a Combat Maneuver (such as the -3 OCV for a Grab By)" on offensive PSL.

 

Nothing from Mr. Long in my range, but you can always ask him.

[Steve]

Re: Extra DCV vs penalties

 

Well, I asked and was told that PSLs do not apply in the case of multiple attack.

 

Assuming an 8 DCV character, buying +8 DCV (40 Active Points) with a -1 Limitation (Only to offset multiple attack penalty) yields a 20 point cost. If PSLs could be used, that would have cost 12 points for 4 levels.

 

It looks like getting 2 levels of limited DCV for every 5 points spent is the way to go.