Grabbing then Calling Shot

[Dr Divago]

Hi all

i dunno if this should be posted in the general system discussion or in fantasy specific thing; i suppose this is the right place but if i'm wrong please forgive me and move the post

 

if someone grab a target then whant use an attack to aim for a particular location, hit location modifier still apply?

i think of something like a vampire grabbing a target then try to "kiss" them, i mean using his bite attack to drink his blood. Other similar use could be a jaculus (MMM55) grabbing/constrict a target then hitting with bite+venom attack, or even a claw armed bad (or good?) guy stabbing at the throat of an enemy

 

i could assume this resolution, but dunno if this is correct:

- phase 1, grabber declare grab vs the target; assuming attack is succesfull they both made STR roll etc and assuming he's succesfull again the grabber grab the target that's now grabbed (i know, it could be a "tongue-twister" )

- then grabber could declare "grab and control" and do another STR vs STR roll; if he beat the grabbed roll by 2 points then the grabbed is immobilised

- next phase, assuming grabber hold the grab, the grabber can declare a Full Phase maneuver to "punt the weapon on the location", i name it "neck or throat". Then as an action that take no time can attack, thus blood draining or venom injecting or like (see 6ED2 110 or Combat Handbook 120)

 

this sound good for me, but i assume is too easy: if this is true someone can easily grab and then putting down most of the adversaries, assuming he got a large enough STR. Viceversa if is not possible, then the grabber need to make attack roll with -9 (as for neck) every phase just to bite a grabbed char, and this sound weird to me

 

ty all for your advices, as usual

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

IIRC, you still have all the usual called shot penalties, but since the target's DCV is halved for being grabbed, it's still quite a bit easier.

[Christopher]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

It's definitely the right place.

 

Asuming we are talking about 6E:

The Grabber can use his Full OCV -9 vs. the Grabbed 1/2 DCV. That is already a lot of bonus. Plus a vampire will have Penalty Skill Levels for bitting the neck.

 

I couldn't find what you mean with "grab and control", but it rather sound like you disable movement not that the target can't defend/free itself any less that with a normal Grab.

Don't forget that the Grabbe has to use some of his limbs to make and hold the grab (usually two), that also hinders him.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

Is it possible for the grabber to do it all in 1 phase as a multiple power attack? (I suspect that the grabee get's his whole DCV vs. all attacks in the multiple power attack, right?)

[Dr Divago]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

Asuming we are talking about 6E:

The Grabber can use his Full OCV -9 vs. the Grabbed 1/2 DCV. That is already a lot of bonus. Plus a vampire will have Penalty Skill Levels for bitting the neck.

i'm not very competent with the 6e (i still use the 5er but i got also 6e and i check here too sometime)

btw, for 5er is same things

-9 for the neck... half dcv does'nt help very much:

assuming a 7 OCV for a vamp and 6 DCV for a player (they always whant to increase DCV while possible, don't they?)

half DCV means 3 DCV

this would be that hitting the neck for vampire become:

7+11-3-9=6-

this is awfully difficult. Even if i give them a +3 surprise bonus for clueless vampire victim this will become 9-

still very difficult

 

i'm not keeping in mind PSL because same rule i can use for monsters with very little fangs (like jaculus... for those unfamiliar with, those are semi intelligent snakes that glide down from tree branches, grab the target then search for soft spot (like the neck) and hit with the ½d6 hka bite)

I couldn't find what you mean with "grab and control", but it rather sound like you disable movement not that the target can't defend/free itself any less that with a normal Grab.

Don't forget that the Grabbe has to use some of his limbs to make and hold the grab (usually two), that also hinders him.

"grab and control" is a grab option in combat handbook for 5er (i really thought they put into 6e too... maybe in supplements i don't have?)

is the classic movie "grab and make them kneel" or "grab and put them against the floor/wall" so they can't move (nor attack)

you need to declare it (and also make another attack in the next phase) and beat the STR vs STR roll with more than 2 points

Is it possible for the grabber to do it all in 1 phase as a multiple power attack? (I suspect that the grabee get's his whole DCV vs. all attacks in the multiple power attack' date=' right?)[/quote']

dunno, but i will not let it...

[RexMundi]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

Is it possible for the grabber to do it all in 1 phase as a multiple power attack? (I suspect that the grabee get's his whole DCV vs. all attacks in the multiple power attack' date=' right?)[/quote']

 

Multi Attack. Mutiple Power Attack is different. Terminology rules the game but provided you track all the modifiers and are following the multi attack guidelines (especially if you have bought the appropriate rapid fire/attack/whatever it's called nowadays since they don't call it sweep, heh).

 

Also you have to figure out whether it's a one handed grab, or otherwise. Some of the martial arts maneuvers are specificaly one limb, but don't suffer all the penelties that a non martial grab only using one limb would. grabbed imposses the penelties so long as the grab is maintained which makes those one limbed grabs rather mean (especially ones with block elements), but then, most martial artists can do a number on you regardless with a two limbed grab as well (aka, Eat Muay Thai Knees!).

 

I've actually got a page in the working notebook for Whisper there GA that breaks down all the OCV/DCV modifiers and such if you want to copy it over. Verified against 5th Ed as well.

 

~Rex....Allows it. Since it's possible, works via the rules and has been done more then a few times in the real world much less the world of cinematic to wuxia and super hero combat.

[dmjalund]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

doesnt the penalties apply before halving DCV?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

It's awfully hard to do, yes, but considering the power of the maneuver, I think it's an acceptable tradeoff (especially if you're using the hit location damage modifiers). Or, alternately, it'd be worth a BIG limitation value.

[RexMundi]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

There's more then a few built in limitations for it. The "grabber" has more then a few penelties of his own, on top of the differences between being a martial grabber and a generic grabber. Then there are all the points one must spend in order just to be OK at it, not just good. It's a pretty hefty investment that polices itself pretty well.

 

Usually though from what I've seen, folks that lean this way in builds (myself included), are far less obnoxious with it then a few other archetype builds I can think off off the top of my head, since it promotes a layering of skills, talents, and skill levels, as opposed to stats, powers, and piles of advantages that equate to instant alpha strike.

 

The grappling stuff polices itsef fairly well unlike a few other things I've seen run rampant through various games since '82 or so, heh.

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

doesnt the penalties apply before halving DCV?

In 6E halving and other Percent Modifiers are at the end, after all Levels and situational modifieres are applied. That's true for for the 0 DC things too (like movign at NCM).

 

-9 for the neck... half dcv does'nt help very much:

assuming a 7 OCV for a vamp and 6 DCV for a player (they always whant to increase DCV while possible, don't they?)

half DCV means 3 DCV

this would be that hitting the neck for vampire become:

7+11-3-9=6-

this is awfully difficult. Even if i give them a +3 surprise bonus for clueless vampire victim this will become 9-

still very difficult

You think a complete +3 for the Vampire isn't good enough already? If he hasn't got the OCV and PSL to pull it of, he should K.O. or "charm" his target to do it on free will.

In 6E the head is a -8, but with 2 times Body and 2 time Normal STUN or 5 times Killing STUN. Fangs are killing, at least in my interpretion.

 

"grab and control" is a grab option in combat handbook for 5er (i really thought they put into 6e too... maybe in supplements i don't have?)

is the classic movie "grab and make them kneel" or "grab and put them against the floor/wall" so they can't move (nor attack)

you need to declare it (and also make another attack in the next phase) and beat the STR vs STR roll with more than 2 points

How do you escape it? Do you have to escape the grab itself seperately? What are the differences to a normal grab? I think I would just try to mimic it with Trip (despite the name, it's just "bring them into disadvanteged postition" and even works in Zero-G). Or just grab all the limbs, maybe with multiple attack and/or follow up grabs.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

Why -9 instead of -8?

 

By my math, unless I'm missing something: Vamp OCV 8, target DCV 6; -8 penalty for called shot, 1/2 DCV is 3, so: 11 + 8 -8 -3 = 8 or less. Still not great, but that is vs. a PC. Against a hapless human, it is going to be DCV 3; 2 halved, so 9-, and that is only if the vamp is actually wrestling them to the ground and biting during the fight itself. I would think a "good" vampire would have other means to disable or lull their victims before popping the cork

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

Why -9 instead of -8?

 

I think Neck might have its own hit location now, as opposed to just being subsumed into the head location's 3-5.

[Christopher]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

When they are stunned, ko, willing or suprised (halved modifiier for placed shot) it gets:

OCV 8, -4 Penalty vs. DCV 0, or 15-

Or just a Full Phase to Place the fangs and a 0-Phase to make the bite if they are really helpless.

Edit: The halving only aplies when he is "suprised out of combat", read that wrong in the first try.

 

And when he buys 8 PSL for "Biting the Neck" (8 Real Cost), he gets a 11+8-3 = 16-

 

About the Multiple Attack:

Sure, he could Grab and Bite in the same phase. However, you have to apply the -8 modifier for both Grab and Biting. Plus the -2 for two attacks.

Multiple Attack isn't the right thing, unless you are way better than your enemy (most supers vs. normal tugs).

[Christopher]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

I think Neck might have its own hit location now' date=' as opposed to just being subsumed into the head location's 3-5.[/quote']

No, Head is now listed as -8. Just took that one, since it's the worst anyway.

[Dr Divago]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

doesnt the penalties apply before halving DCV?

as far as i remember, Placed Shot modifier is for OCV and not DCV, and ocv is not halved...

You think a complete +3 for the Vampire isn't good enough already? If he hasn't got the OCV and PSL to pull it of, he should K.O. or "charm" his target to do it on free will.

In 6E the head is a -8, but with 2 times Body and 2 time Normal STUN or 5 times Killing STUN. Fangs are killing, at least in my interpretion.

i'm not wondering about damage. i assume vampire bite is too low to penetrate hard armors (plus as far as i remember bloodsucking is NND (defense is having hard or rigid armor))

 

i'm thinking about the "i grab, then i hit the neck"...

How do you escape it? Do you have to escape the grab itself seperately? What are the differences to a normal grab? I think I would just try to mimic it with Trip (despite the name' date=' it's just "bring them into disadvanteged postition" and even works in Zero-G). Or just grab all the limbs, maybe with multiple attack and/or follow up grabs.[/quote']it's just a normal grab. you escape in the same way

plus, if STR vs STR contest is not more than 2 pinit (for the grabber) grabbed is not "controled" and become a "normal grab"

Why -9 instead of -8?

Neck/Throat is an additional hit location in Combat Handbook

(ok it's for 5ed but 6ed don't say anything different...)

ADDITIONAL HIT LOCATIONS
Location   STUNx N STUN BODYx To Hit
Finger       x1    x½    x¼    -8
Eye          x5    x2    x2½   -12
Knee/Elbow   x2    x1    x½    -7
Spine        x3    x1    x1    -7
Neck/Throat  x5    x1    x2    -9

btw i know a vampire could use a different tactic; this is just a rule question about grabbing and hitting specific location: it could be also a police officer grabbing to disarm special equipment, a super hero grabbing to attack a specific vulnerable spot, a biting poisonous monster grabbing to hit soft spot, etc.

Or just a Full Phase to Place the fangs and a 0-Phase to make the bite if they are really helpless.

yep

i'm wondering if someone could "full immobilize someone so it could be helpless" with grab (maybe with grab and control option in Combat Handbook)

[Christopher]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

as far as i remember' date=' Placed Shot modifier is for [b']OCV[/b] and not DCV, and ocv is not halved...

i'm not wondering about damage. i assume vampire bite is too low to penetrate hard armors (plus as far as i remember bloodsucking is NND (defense is having hard or rigid armor))

Well, than that is a "Nerve Strike" with "Must follow Grab" Disadvantage and "Blood Sucking" being the Special effect of the attack (like is hitting the vitals), see HSMA. I mean you don't want to use hit locations increased damage rules, so don't try to do this with hit locations.

 

it's just a normal grab. you escape in the same way

plus, if STR vs STR contest is not more than 2 pinit (for the grabber) grabbed is not "controled" and become a "normal grab"

That is simulated by Grabbing all the limbs. This does not mean that you really have all the limps grabbed, but some Judo-Grips make halve your targets limps useless for free (they are more diffcutly however: Multiattack Malus or multiple phases). These count as "grabbed" for rules purpose, even if you don't use a hand/arm/leg to block them.

Immobilising is just "grabbing" the legs, disabling attack is just grabbing the arms (unless he has damage shield or variable origin point attacks).

 

btw i know a vampire could use a different tactic; this is just a rule question about grabbing and hitting specific location: it could be also a police officer grabbing to disarm special equipment' date=' a super hero grabbing to attack a specific vulnerable spot, a biting poisonous monster grabbing to hit soft spot, etc.[/quote']

Grabbing Items is solved in the 6E basic rules for Grab. There is even the Grab-By and rules for Grabbing Weapons, but that is another story.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

I think your calculations are basically correct and it is always going to be hard to do a placed head shot on a struggling victim; that might not be wholly realistic but it is good for game balance.

 

To make the neck bite a more viable attack option, you could use penalty skill levels already noted above, and that might be good for the snakes you mentioned if that is their primary form of attack. For vampires, their victims are typically depicted giving up the struggle making it an easy hit. You could simulate that with Mind Control or just a high PRE.

 

You might also just buy the bite to reflect the fact it usually targets the neck. So the basic bite might be 1d6 KA, but then buy +1d6 KA, Must Follow Grab, Full PHA, to reflect the fact hits to the neck do double damage. That way you don't have to mess with hit locations at all - it is just built into the sfx of the power.

[Christopher]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

You might also just buy the bite to reflect the fact it usually targets the neck. So the basic bite might be 1d6 KA' date=' but then buy +1d6 KA, Must Follow Grab, Full PHA, to reflect the fact hits to the neck do double damage. That way you don't have to mess with hit locations at all - it is just built into the sfx of the power.[/quote']

You could even build that as a Martial Maneuver (perhaps Vampire Claw and Bite "Martial Arts"). Attacks that only work against certain Hit Locations don't have to go with the called shot malus either (MA is bascially a Attack/Limited STR Multipower light).

 

Or just go straight for powers. Here you can make it an NND, HKA or whatever else you want to and go with Ockham's combination and completely ignore the targeting rules. You could even combine it with an trigered AID or MC (target get's "entralled" by bite) if that fit's your concept of a vampire.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Grabbing then Calling Shot

 

Why -9 instead of -8?

 

It's in the APG - pg 173.