The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Don't know about the government, but here's my take on things:

 

On one hand, cloning someone without their knowledge and express consent should be illegal as it is a violation, regardless of how the genetic material was obtained. On the other hand, summarily executing a clone who is already alive and demonstratively sentient would be straight up murder. Best way to handle this, IMHO, the illegal cloner does jail time and the clone is given a new SSN and any assistance within reason that is needed to adjust to society.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Assuming the clones have not committed any crimes, I fully agree with Marcus Impudite. If, being trained terrorists with none of the lovey mommy stuff ingrained in (most of) us from birth, they are compelled to commit terrorist acts, then they will be imprisoned and/or executed as befits their crimes, without regard to the issue of DNA.

 

The thing to remember is that identical twins are naturally occurring clones. Being identical twins doesn't confer or withhold any legal rights other people have. The age difference between a DNA donor and his artificially occurring identical twins should make no difference.

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Yah, the more I think about it these assassin-clones will end up at a "Gitmo" for the rest of their lives, never officially sentenced but labeled a threat to society, waiting for the law to catch up to their situation.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Yah' date=' the more I think about it these assassin-clones will end up at a "Gitmo" for the rest of their lives, never officially sentenced but labeled a threat to society, waiting for the law to catch up to their situation.[/quote']

 

That's all we need, another group of people that the Constitution and the Geneva conventions don't apply to.

[Balabanto]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Okay, who hasn't used them. We've seen them in the service of Viper and all over the comics we love. They're a GREAT plot device and are entirely expendable... But what then?

 

In my most recent Epic City arc the New Reich (Link to Nazi evil) employ an army of clones. They will be quite a challenge for Epic City's heroes (Epic Alliance), but I'm sure the clones will be defeated.

 

So what then?

 

Cloning is the ultimate form of identity theft. Under normal circumstances the law would simply erase the stolen identity and return it to its original owner. But, in this case, does that mean the execution of hundreds of living beings (who were never part of their inception)?

 

What would your government do??????

 

My government destroys the clones. Absolutely and without question. Scott Bennie wrote an old article somewhere that explains why. The Constitution entitles one man to one vote, but it doesn't entitle one man to create as many votes as he can.

 

Cloning attempts have resulted in not one, not two, but three separate attempts to take over the entire world through the use of cloned beings.

 

So in my game world...

 

1) Clones have no rights in the western nations. In areas where the world has a more morally slippery view (China, Russia, the third world) cloning experimentation is carried out in dark corridors and secret labs. Superheroes have their work cut out for them stopping all these weirdo cloning experiments, even though less than one in a hundred are successful. For one thing, breaking into another country is an act of war. For another, many of these governments are willing to offer these clones, especially super-clones, citizenship on the basis of the Golden Rule. (He who has the gold makes the rules.)

 

2) Being a GEB (Genetically Engineered Being) requires a clone test. If you were a single being and engineered from artificial materials, etc, usually, you'll be okay. Being a test tube baby is okay. Being assembled from multiple forms of DNA and/or being an exact copy of another living being through non-natural causes is illegal, even a dead one. It, or anyone else around it, is profiting from a criminal act through the very act of it's survival, namely, the stealing of the aforementioned DNA.

 

3) A lot of people argue for punishing the problem, not the solution. Unfortunately, this leads to radical overpopulation in a short period of time, the creation of "Clone Communities" who can elect their own representatives, and so on. See Star Wars for why stuff like this can be a problem. Cloning beings is illegal for a reason.

 

4) Genetically Engineered Beings have to undergo the same tests aliens do, only the requirements are much stricter. For one thing, aliens don't necessarily get their medical records kept by the government after a period of time. For another, aliens come from space. They aren't physical evidence in the commission of a crime.

 

A lot of people have accused me of being a total fascist every time I mention this. Now imagine that the people who are ending this plot are superheroes who've been doing their job for 20 years or so. If you're a superhero and you haven't been copied by a bad guy at some point, chances are, unless you're very lucky, your spurs haven't been earned. But, it's still identity theft, and pretty much, the consequences of cloning, or creating a clone army, are exceptionally dire.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

My government destroys the clones. Absolutely and without question. Scott Bennie wrote an old article somewhere that explains why. The Constitution entitles one man to one vote' date=' but it doesn't entitle one man to create as many votes as he can. [/quote']

 

The Constitution restricts how many children and grandchildren you can have?

 

Cloning attempts have resulted in not one, not two, but three separate attempts to take over the entire world through the use of cloned beings.

 

So in my game world

 

That's the key for the OP, in my view - how do you want things to be in your game world. In Balabanto's, there's some nasty clone history that has lead to clones being addressed in law in a specific way.

 

1) Clones have no rights.

 

2) Being a GEB (Genetically Engineered Being) requires a clone test. If you were a single being and engineered from artificial materials, etc, usually, you'll be okay. Being a test tube baby is okay. Being assembled from multiple forms of DNA and/or being an exact copy of another living being through non-natural causes is illegal, even a dead one. It, or anyone else around it, is profiting from a criminal act through the very act of it's survival, namely, the stealing of the aforementioned DNA.

 

3) A lot of people argue for punishing the problem, not the solution. Unfortunately, this leads to radical overpopulation in a short period of time, the creation of "Clone Communities" who can elect their own representatives, and so on. See Star Wars for why stuff like this can be a problem. Cloning beings is illegal for a reason.

 

4) Genetically Engineered Beings have to undergo the same tests aliens do, only the requirements are much stricter. For one thing, aliens don't necessarily get their medical records kept by the government after a period of time. For another, aliens come from space. They aren't physical evidence in the commission of a crime.

 

A lot of people have accused me of being a total fascist every time I mention this. Now imagine that the people who are ending this plot are superheroes who've been doing their job for 20 years or so. If you're a superhero and you haven't been copied by a bad guy at some point, chances are, unless you're very lucky, your spurs haven't been earned. But, it's still identity theft, and pretty much, the consequences of cloning, or creating a clone army, are exceptionally dire.

 

So what about a Superhero who is a clone of a bad guy? or just a clone? What about a whole team of Clones (of different people, I hope) whose whole story mega-arc revolves around Rights for Clones (an X-men pastiche, perhaps? everyone is prejudiced against clones, and these clones fight to defend a world that hates and fears them)?

 

I could see the exact results Balabanto describes as a real reaction. Now, would there not be some groups who oppose this on a civil liberties basis? If it's played as having no differing opinions, and no controversy, I see that as unrealistic.

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

See, I lean pretty far left (just ask RexMundi)... But I tend to agree with Balabanto. Regardless, the game needs evil in all forms, so why not stick with Balabanto's solution? (it certainly makes for much less bookwork on the GM's part )

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

I could see the exact results Balabanto describes as a real reaction. Now' date=' would there not be some groups who oppose this on a civil liberties basis? If it's played as having no differing opinions, and no controversy, I see that as unrealistic.[/quote']

 

I don't think INSEC (read about them here) would let clone information circulate readily throughout the general population. Fear and anger could lead to far greater problems than the clones themselves.

 

Still leaning towards a clone "Gitmo"... But clone elimination has a nice ring to it.

[Lucius]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Regardless' date=' the game needs evil in all forms, so why not stick with Balabanto's solution? [/quote']

 

Because I can't stomach a world in which, when identical twins are born, the second born is slaughtered in the delivery room.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that even identical twins have different fingerprints.

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Because I can't stomach a world in which, when identical twins are born, the second born is slaughtered in the delivery room.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that even identical twins have different fingerprints.

"Born" and "made" are two very different things!

[Balabanto]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

The Constitution restricts how many children and grandchildren you can have?

 

 

 

That's the key for the OP, in my view - how do you want things to be in your game world. In Balabanto's, there's some nasty clone history that has lead to clones being addressed in law in a specific way.

 

 

 

So what about a Superhero who is a clone of a bad guy? or just a clone? What about a whole team of Clones (of different people, I hope) whose whole story mega-arc revolves around Rights for Clones (an X-men pastiche, perhaps? everyone is prejudiced against clones, and these clones fight to defend a world that hates and fears them)?

 

I could see the exact results Balabanto describes as a real reaction. Now, would there not be some groups who oppose this on a civil liberties basis? If it's played as having no differing opinions, and no controversy, I see that as unrealistic.

 

There is controversy. There is a superhero who is a GEB of several bad guys (The Red Baron, Hitler, etc.) And SHE has to keep that a secret. Because if it ever gets out, there will be a superhero war. There are already sides forming up. She's told two people. One of them is completely down with it. The other is secretly furious that she's now in this position, and she's Red Baroness's team leader. This is likely to turn nasty. So, there is a story about rights for clones. And there are groups who oppose it on a civil liberties basis. Unfortunately, one of them is C.A.S.H. (Citizens Against Super Heroes.) And a LOT of villains donate to this organization so that they will have freedom to create their own armies of superbeings.

 

The problem is, that if you're a parent, you're likely to be furious with any change in the law. Clones carry a genetic marker that identifies them, however, the difficulty of detecting this marker is variable. There's actually a subset of the forgery skill in my game that specifically deals with clones and is opposed by soft science skills and superhuman biology. The problem isn't so much "What about the clone?" as "What about my kids?"

 

And one of the most influential superheroes in the world supports the law, because he has two kids. And he has absolutely no super powers whatsoever other than super-intelligence. There's too much of a slippery slope for a brilliant scientist/powered armor guy to go against this, especially when he is the child of a human and an alien himself. Any other stance won't go well.

[Clonus]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Okay, who hasn't used them. We've seen them in the service of Viper and all over the comics we love. They're a GREAT plot device and are entirely expendable... But what then?

 

In my most recent Epic City arc the New Reich (Link to Nazi evil) employ an army of clones. They will be quite a challenge for Epic City's heroes (Epic Alliance), but I'm sure the clones will be defeated.

 

So what then?

 

Cloning is the ultimate form of identity theft. Under normal circumstances the law would simply erase the stolen identity and return it to its original owner. But, in this case, does that mean the execution of hundreds of living beings (who were never part of their inception)?

 

What would your government do??????

 

Issue them birth certificates with their accurate date of birth. Keep them in an institution until they are old enough to be on their own.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

"Born" and "made" are two very different things!

 

Are they?

 

Let me point out a scenario...

 

Evil Genius decides he needs a heir. Since the only one worthy of such an honor is himself, he makes a clone embryo, implants it in his mistress (without her knowledge), and has her raise it. Circumstances occur where the Evil Genius must fake his death and go into hiding. The mistress, thinking the child is hers by the evil genius, takes him into hiding in a different country. The boy grows up with no knowledge of his father. He's a genius, but he is raised under other circumstances, so he isn't "evil" (or no more so than any other child). Being a super-genius, he attends the Ravenswood Academy (Champions Universe school for teenage metahumans training to be superheroes). At the age of 15, his father comes out of hiding, and anounces that the boy is his son, clone, and heir to the throne of his 3rd world dictatorship.

 

So, what happens now?

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Hmm. Celebrity clone pRon. Might be a bit of a market for that. Possibly.

[Christopher]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

"Born" and "made" are two very different things!

I ask the same question: How?

And where exactly is the line between made and borne?

 

Is "made" that you DNA get's mixed up in a test tube? Well, ART does involve mixing DNA in a Laboratory (the difference is, they DNA is in the cell to beginn with).

Is "made" that you were gestated in an artificial womb, instead of a normal one? Then how about "normal" persons that must be conceived in this way (due to problems with the mothers natural womb).

When genetic is that far, how about a lesbian couple that has their daugther made as Binay Clone but then implanted and go on as with "normal" ART?

What about Surrogacy?

What about Surrogacy for Homosexual Men (same method as above)?

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

At what point does "making" clones become a bad thing? Through DNA manipulation I could use my clones to purposfully introduce new viruses that would endanger every living person. Since Aliens introduced this technology into Epic City I could build exotic weapons and suicide devices into my clones. Remember, I'm already brainwashing them all to exemplify the very worst traits of the NAZI regime. What's the difference, then, between making them weapons and giving them weapons?

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Issue them birth certificates with their accurate date of birth. Keep them in an institution until they are old enough to be on their own.

 

They were incubated into adulthood in a matter of months and given a very specific education electronically in that time. They come out lean, mean, Nazi fighting machines!

[RexMundi]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Hmmm. *Has a thought*

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

At what point does "making" clones become a bad thing? Through DNA manipulation I could use my clones to purposfully introduce new viruses that would endanger every living person.

Well then you are resposible for the virus and the clones must be cured of it, before they can be released to normal soceity (asuming they don't have a brainwashing to kill everything).

 

The difference between a clone and a bomb (unless it's an AI bomb) is that they can learn to not to fullfill it's design purpose.

They may have brainwashed them, but that also means the good guys could give them a set of not so bad informations on the same way(counter-brainwashing).

Once they have some informations/memorys that allows them to invalidate the 1st washing, they can get a free will just like everyone else.

And for the crimes comitted: They were brainwashed, just value that as you would value Superman being brainwashed by Darkseid.

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

hmmm. *has a thought*

 

~rex

 

yikes!!!

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Well then you are resposible for the virus and the clones must be cured of it, before they can be released to normal soceity (asuming they don't have a brainwashing to kill everything).

 

The difference between a clone and a bomb (unless it's an AI bomb) is that they can learn to not to fullfill it's design purpose.

They may have brainwashed them, but that also means the good guys could give them a set of not so bad informations on the same way(counter-brainwashing).

Once they have some informations/memorys that allows them to invalidate the 1st washing, they can get a free will just like everyone else.

And for the crimes comitted: They were brainwashed, just value that as you would value Superman being brainwashed by Darkseid.

So 'Nurture" totally dominates "Nature" in your book? What if their insidious orders and the "bomb" they carried were coded into their DNA?

 

I remember reading recent evidence that separated twins are surprisingly similar in their life's endeavours (Nature over Nurture). What if the only way to cure them was to kill them???

[RexMundi]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

It's not that bad. Really if we're discussing it as a morality issue, then you have to ask, is there a religious aspect to the environment, then it becomes a matter of, "Do Clones have Souls?". Looking at Balabanto's setting, I see where that goes and would lean that way myself.

 

Game wise, Clones being evil programmed meat machines, disposable mooks. Epic City wise, that's a different story. Still in the end if you approach it from a comic book viewpoint, Unless you are living in Mark Millar/Brian Bendis/Jeph Loeb Iron Age Schlock land, it should be a bad thing to just willy nilly run around and take anything living and breathing, and toss it in the wood chipper because *meh, it's a clone so what?*.....

 

Similar issue was handled in the Dynamite Avengers/Invaders crossover ......LMD's came to Jim Hammond for help. "I think therefore I am..." kinda thing. Was an interesting read. In the end though, Morality in regards to a Mass Carnage of Clonage.......gonna come down to what's on the sheet, as opposed to what's in the players head, who may be thinking more along the lines of video game carnage, and not along the lines of, these things are living, breathing, bleeding, screaming, dying things.

 

Lot of folks think they can prep a rabbit for the stew pot, until you tell them how to do it and put the bunny in their hands. Once it's there, it's no longer "A bunny sure I can twist off it's head *POP!", it's looking at you. Most folks wimp out real quick then after talking a big game and well, a Clone of a Human, is far more complex then a pesky wabbit.

 

On the other hand, it's a mook, and newer gamers slaughter mooks. It's just what they do. So, that all being said, What's on the sheet dictates. What the Society of the Game dictates, that's in the GM's hand.

 

~Rex....in the end, unless it's Iron Age, you just ask, What would Roy Thomas do?

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Issue them birth certificates with their accurate date of birth. Keep them in an institution until they are old enough to be on their own.

 

What if Dr. Sivana, Professor Ivo and myself were so well hidden that we could continue to create clones indefinitely. We pump out 10,000 a day that show up in random US cities... Should the government give them green cards and eventually citizenship?

[Christopher]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

What if their insidious orders and the "bomb" they carried were coded into their DNA?

then we alter their DNA so they aren't bombs anymore. But you never said they were bombed, just clones that underwent a extreme brainwashing/indoctrintation and they thus can overcome it, like everybody else can.

Of course, if they do open warfare on us and we can#t hold em, execution may be the only way to deal with that enemy.

 

What if Dr. Sivana' date=' Professor Ivo and myself were so well hidden that we could continue to create clones indefinitely. We pump out 10,000 a day that show up in random US cities... Should the government give them green cards and eventually citizenship?[/quote']

Green Cards are rare.

And for citiceship, you might have to proove that that you have valuable skills to contribute. And let's just answer that with a picture:

http://www.nicky510.com/comic/glut-on-the-market/

 

For both, you must certainly proove that you don't plan to attack the government/constitution.

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Flying monkeys ROCK. I'm gonna clone a dozen right now!