Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

[Drolyt]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Didn't realize people were still replying to this. Thanks for the info. It seems to me that for active points you should only count those things that actually make the ability more effective in general. For example, multiple levels of armor piercing is quite situational, as is extremely large areas (which have little benefit beyond the initial +1/4 area advantage). One thing that I find strange about Hero, coming from D&D, is that the bell curve rolling method makes each bonus to CV huge. You can't really have characters that are "good at hitting" or "good at dodging" because it quickly becomes "always hits" or "always dodges". And heck, CV is cheap. I don't get that. Also, I'll check out Herocentral.net.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Hmm. All the replies seem to focus on the mechanics and numbers. My biggest problem when running a cosmically powered game was about everyone being able to do everything. I think there is a real need for the GM to focus on the schtick of the characters and make sure that they do not step on each other toes with respect to roles in the group etc.

 

Even if you have all the numbers right you might find that everyone can do everything and it will all seem a bit bland. THAT is where the GM does a lot of work in a cosmically powered game IME.

 

Doc

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Hmm. All the replies seem to focus on the mechanics and numbers. My biggest problem when running a cosmically powered game was about everyone being able to do everything. I think there is a real need for the GM to focus on the schtick of the characters and make sure that they do not step on each other toes with respect to roles in the group etc.

 

Even if you have all the numbers right you might find that everyone can do everything and it will all seem a bit bland. THAT is where the GM does a lot of work in a cosmically powered game IME.

 

Doc

 

We ran a game that ended on the Cosmic level, 1,000+ point characters by the final round (though some of that was point inflating moving from 4th to 5th to, and finally 6th for fun but not played). We were didn't have any of the Do All types - in fact we were all pretty segregated into solid concepts. Maybe I'll post a walk through of the character later - you can do some very interesting things when you can get 1-200 AP Powers without much effort.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

We ran a game that ended on the Cosmic level' date=' 1,000+ point characters by the final round (though some of that was point inflating moving from 4th to 5th to, and finally 6th for fun but not played). We were didn't have any of the Do All types - in fact we were all pretty segregated into solid concepts. Maybe I'll post a walk through of the character later - you can do some very interesting things when you can get 1-200 AP Powers without much effort.[/quote']

 

I think it is probably less of a problem with organically grown characters, even those grandfathered on prior characters, than it would be with those just written for a cosmic campaign.

 

It is not impossible (obviously) but I think if someone is looking for guidelines then there should be something about this as well as about the mechanics of keeping things balanced. I think that walk through would be interesting - and possibly some commentary of where things were not developed due to them 'not being in character' and possibly because to do so would step on another character's toes.

 

Doc

[Steve]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

A well thought out Rule of X should be simple enough that you can do the math in your head.

 

I usually have an average DC and Avg SPD. each SPD pt above average removes 2 DC from the Max, and each spd below avg allows you to add 2 DC to max. Generally that's what I like to see. I have a spreadsheet somewhere that shows how much damage per spd that a character does.

 

I don't usually worry as much about CV. The game really only works well if everyone is within a certain range of CV (OCV vs DCV). ONce you have 4 DCV over your opposition you are nearly unhittable and the converse is true.

 

How would Damage Negation and Damage Reduction work into the calculation?

[Tasha]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

How would Damage Negation and Damage Reduction work into the calculation?

 

Roughly Active point of rDef = Active Point of Damage Reduction or Damage Negation.

[Drolyt]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Roughly Active point of rDef = Active Point of Damage Reduction or Damage Negation.

I might be wrong, but my quick calculations show that while Damage Negation is effectively the same as rDef (the main difference is that Damage Negation completely blocks low DC but high roll attacks, while rDef does the same for high DC but low roll attacks) Damage Reduction seems much weaker point for point. It's only better if you are taking a lot of damage compared to how many points you spent in defense. It does seem useful for prolonging boss fights, but I don't see putting it on a character.

Edit: Now that I think about it, maybe Damage Reduction is better against attacks that deal stun?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

I might be wrong, but my quick calculations show that while Damage Negation is effectively the same as rDef (the main difference is that Damage Negation completely blocks low DC but high roll attacks, while rDef does the same for high DC but low roll attacks) Damage Reduction seems much weaker point for point. It's only better if you are taking a lot of damage compared to how many points you spent in defense. It does seem useful for prolonging boss fights, but I don't see putting it on a character.

Edit: Now that I think about it, maybe Damage Reduction is better against attacks that deal stun?

 

Damage Negation also effectively acts as Knockback Resistance (something traditional personal defenses don't do).

[BNakagawa]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

The simplest benchmark for rating a character's combat effectiveness is this:

 

Define a standard benchmark opponent that represents a commonly encountered foe of roughly equal power to the PC.

 

1: Calculate how many seconds it will take for the PC to KO the opponent.

2: Calculate how many seconds the PC can survive being attacked by the opponent.

[Christopher]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Edit: Now that I think about it' date=' maybe Damage Reduction is better against attacks that deal stun?[/quote']

Damage Reduction is better against attacks that deal a lot of anything. It's also the preferred way to make a boss harder, without making him impossible to damage for half the group. It also helps against getting stunned (as you only check against the STUN your really took). Also DN is imune to Armor Piercing and can be good protection to all mental Effects (not just damaging ones).

 

Damage Negation on the other hand, is good against unadvantaged, low DC attacks, maybe Autofire, AVAD's, Drain STUN/BODY and somewhat helps against knockback.

Earlier I thought it works very good vs. Guns, but after re-reading the rules it's a lot less usefull vs. Autofire than I thought (AF 5 is a +3/4 Advantage; and the Increased STUN is an extra +1/4).

Still, -6 DC make a haymakered deringer Shot (3 DC + 4 DC = 7 DC) to a 1 DC Kiling attack (1 Point with 1/2d6 STUN multiplier) - easily blocked by decent defenses.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Damage Reduction is better against attacks that deal a lot of anything. It's also the preferred way to make a boss harder, without making him impossible to damage for half the group. It also helps against getting stunned (as you only check against the STUN your really took). Also DN is imune to Armor Piercing and can be good protection to all mental Effects (not just damaging ones).

 

Damage Negation on the other hand, is good against unadvantaged, low DC attacks, maybe Autofire, AVAD's, Drain STUN/BODY and somewhat helps against knockback.

Earlier I thought it works very good vs. Guns, but after re-reading the rules it's a lot less usefull vs. Autofire than I thought (AF 5 is a +3/4 Advantage; and the Increased STUN is an extra +1/4).

Still, -6 DC make a haymakered deringer Shot (3 DC + 4 DC = 7 DC) to a 1 DC Kiling attack (1 Point with 1/2d6 STUN multiplier) - easily blocked by decent defenses.

 

Autofire (5 Shots) is a +1/2 Advantage.

[Christopher]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Autofire (5 Shots) is a +1/2 Advantage.

Ups, your right.

 

Still, Damage Negation is the only defense that is affected by every advantage put on the attack (even things like reduced endurance). It's directly negating the active points of an attack, opposed to hindering the effect (damage/effect roll) as all other defenses do.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

No, only DC-increasing advantages. Autofire is DC-increasing; Reduced Endurance is not.

 

DN is better against NNDs and worse against BODY damage, Autofire, and Area of Effect.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

I think, as a general rule, I would treat the DC reduction as a reverse of DC adding, Advataged Attacks will have less dice removed rhan Non-Advataged ones per DC; in the same way less dice are added per DC.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

I think it is probably less of a problem with organically grown characters, even those grandfathered on prior characters, than it would be with those just written for a cosmic campaign.

 

It is not impossible (obviously) but I think if someone is looking for guidelines then there should be something about this as well as about the mechanics of keeping things balanced. I think that walk through would be interesting - and possibly some commentary of where things were not developed due to them 'not being in character' and possibly because to do so would step on another character's toes.

 

Doc

 

Yep. A few guidelines I worked out:

1. Define the character concept tightly.

2. Identify some things the character cannot do.

3. If the character is still proportionally more powerful than average, identify a situation or limitation such that, occasionally, they are a lot less powerful.

4. Require a vulnerability or other "defense doesn't work vs. X" limitation.

5. At least one psych lim that may put some additional constraints on power use/abuse.

 

Beyond 1000 points, the above guidelines actually become more important than defining specific ability ranges, imo. As a practical matter, a dice box can contain up to 36d6, so 100-180 active points is likely to be the range for most "cosmic" or "epic level" campaigns.

[Christopher]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

I think' date=' as a general rule, I would treat the DC reduction as a reverse of DC adding, Advataged Attacks will have less dice removed rhan Non-Advataged ones per DC; in the same way less dice are added per DC.[/quote']

That is the rule for Damage Negation (Reduction was the Percent thing) actually (6E1 184; Advantages and Adders, Area of effect).

 

No, only DC-increasing advantages. Autofire is DC-increasing; Reduced Endurance is not.

Please specifiy where this is written.

For me Reduced END is DC increasing. In fact it costs more when combined with Autofire, clearly stating that it has a relevant effect on how the power of the attack is defined. Just consinder the impact No End has on a 80 AP power when using Multiple Attack (or Multiple Attack with Autofire).

[Drolyt]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

That is the rule for Damage Negation (Reduction was the Percent thing) actually (6E1 184; Advantages and Adders, Area of effect).

 

 

Please specifiy where this is written.

For me Reduced END is DC increasing. In fact it costs more when combined with Autofire, clearly stating that it has a relevant effect on how the power of the attack is defined. Just consinder the impact No End has on a 80 AP power when using Multiple Attack (or Multiple Attack with Autofire).

Doesn't the book leave it up to the GM to determine what advantages are DC increasing? Personally I wouldn't make No End DC increasing, if I did I would also have to make large Recovery values and Endurance Reserves DC increasing.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

The book actually specifies Reduced Endurance as not adding to effective DCs of an Attack, but it is also up to the GM what is what in their campaign.

[Christopher]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Doesn't the book leave it up to the GM to determine what advantages are DC increasing? Personally I wouldn't make No End DC increasing' date=' if I did I would also have to make large Recovery values and Endurance Reserves DC increasing.[/quote']

Your are right, found the rule: 6E1 97 and 98 (listing all those that count for that rule). Autofire, AVAD and AOE are among them, Reduced Endurance and Indirect are not.

[Istaran]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Based on my very limited experience with it, Damage Negation shines in what it takes off the top end. If I remember correctly, we ruled it as being the equivalent of 4 PD or ED, 2 of which is resistant, for the purpose of interacting with defense limits. It was a heroic level campaign, so I either had 1 die of DN with 6 def, 3 resistant or 2 dice DN, 2 def, 1 res (don't recall, it might have been one of those for PD, one for ED or something), and ended up buying regen as a safety net for the expectation I'd be taking a lot more body damage..

I remember I got hurt a fair bit less than the other characters, and especially not badly hurt often, and I think the biggest difference was hit locations.. when a reduced damage hit location was hit I still felt it a bit but it didn't really matter, while the really vulnerable spots were very well protected. I went into it thinking DN would probably be a lot worse overall, but I feel I was proved wrong.

[Christopher]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

It depends on what is used against it. Against Advantages Attacks (Especially Autofire, AOE) most other defenses are better:

The advantage reduces the damage rolled, but does not decrease the defenses applied against it.

DN has to counter the DC directly and thus is weaker against attacks with Autofire/AOE.

Against the cheap (+1/4) advantages likes Amor Piercing it works great (it's effectiveness will only be decreased by 1 quarter). And of course it has a better overall scope of attacks it applies to than normal Defenses.