Mega Knockback in 6th

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

We seem to have shifted from "Megascale Knockback" to "Multiple purchases of x2 Knockback".

 

The latter results in increasing knockback damage. The former does not, unless something changed in 6e. The knockback damage remains based on the original computation of knockback damage, so if 1 meter = 1 km, 4 km knockback = 2d6 knockback damage. This seems consistent with the source material - those huge flybacks don't tend to knock the target out.

 

The DC of the attack should also be taken into account. A x16 KB Punch: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) is a 12 DC attack on its own. If you wouldn't allow a 12d6 Hand Attack plus a 60 STR to get a 24d6 attack, why would you allow the above combo? So now we're looking more like 15 STR and a +3d6, Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2) (45 Active Points) attack. That's 4d6 (average roll of 4) x 16 knockback (so 64 base) subtract 2d6 = 57 x 2 = 114 meters knockback, but still that potential 57d6 if you hit a solid enough object.

 

So what object is that? "Arranging to hit another opponent" requires an attack roll. So what's your OCV with a knocked back opponent? I'd say 0, so we're back to pretty limited opportunities to hit, if I allow for the possibility at all (and if I do, opponents can use the same tactic).

 

The damage enhancement arises because of the geometric progression. What if we take a leaf from the d20 book and rule that they add, not multiply, so +2 "Double Knockback" isn't 16x, but 5x? Now we're talking 20 - 7 = 13 x 2 = 26 meters knockback, on average, from the same 60 AP attack, and it does only 4d6 base damage. Compare that to a 12d6 Punch, and the result seems a lot more reasonable.

 

Or we use the Velocity Based Damage rules for, say, all noncombat and high multiple Knockback speeds.

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

It just sounded like some more atempt at power gaming.

 

Honestly, one for the brick that I make I am planning a double kockback move-through/move by at combat running speed (about 60 STR and 60m running), and I will archieve this by putting a naked advantage on the total of damage classes possible/applicable with this.

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

We seem to have shifted from "Megascale Knockback" to "Multiple purchases of x2 Knockback".

 

The latter results in increasing knockback damage. The former does not, unless something changed in 6e.

Knockback is not a "AOE Power", "Movement Power" or "Power that works on Range". It's the side effect of a power. Therefore you can't apply 6E Megascale to knockback.

And aplying it to a Movement Power usable on others, would make it subject to normal attac power ruling. And you can't Megascale the effect of an attack power (only it's range).

 

So what object is that? "Arranging to hit another opponent" requires an attack roll. So what's your OCV with a knocked back opponent?

6E2 117 Says, it's your base OCV without any bonuses (I think it is the same with a aimed throw).

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

6E2 117 Says' date=' it's your base OCV without any bonuses (I think it is the same with a aimed throw).[/quote']

I am considering "Played Bullet Storm/Crysis/Half Life for the physics" +x OCV, Only for targeted throwning/directed knockback.

It would count (since it is +OCV, or "+ Base CV"), but will still be subject to campaign limits. And the limitation value may be low, depending on how easy it is to make knockback. And of course, with an CVC you have to make certain the enemy doesn't dies (or both don't die).

[Outsider]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

Wow!!

 

Did everyone just miss or ignore the Code vs. Killing part of my post?

Just because a character is physically capable of something it doesn't mean they are also mentally capable of it too.

This is just one more reason the 'FULLY mind controlled brick' seem so much more powerful than they do when 'in their right mind' (they are usually holding back, by a LOT).

 

Didnt miss it. Just wasn't addressing it as it is only relevant if the character in question indeed has it.

 

The power would be problematic even if the character who has it has CvK. Not all opponents are alive. CvK can be circumvented, either by the character himself (Ego Roll to overcome psych lim), or by his opponents (or "friends"!) (mind control, mental illusions, Images). The player may decide to buy off the CvK at a later date to represent the growing cynicism of a hero who has seen too much.

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

CvK can be circumvented' date=' either by the character himself (Ego Roll to overcome psych lim), or by his opponents (or "friends"!) (mind control, mental illusions, Images).[/quote']

When it is a Total CvK, the GM can forbid it entirely. The EGO roll is up to the GM, and at +5!

When my friends mind control me to kill Dr. D, I would most likely regard them as villians from then on. No character with CvK could use someone this way to circuvent it, and no one with CvK could stand by idlily while he does so.

Also, most gm require you to take CvC and leave it on your sheet.

 

That said, I think about a only Strong CvC (isntead of Total). Basically "Wouldn't kill, unless to save someone from imediate danger". Like going full out vs. Darkseid the second he shows up (unless he comes in peace). Or breaking Gronds neck, when he's about to crush the orphanage. And even then, I would let my character make a EGO roll to really go full out (deceiding to do so and really doing it a two diferent things).

And after that, there could be great remorse for having done it (or even for having tried; or for trying and failing).

 

Yes, the villians are an option. But even among them, few should just kill everything on the first ocassion (that is reserved for apokalyptic supervillians). The rest should go for the "pool with laser equipped sharks" to dispose of supers, not attacking them with a Killing Attack once the are k.o.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

When it is a Total CvK, the GM can forbid it entirely. The EGO roll is up to the GM, and at +5!

When my friends mind control me to kill Dr. D, I would most likely regard them as villians from then on. No character with CvK could use someone this way to circuvent it, and no one with CvK could stand by idlily while he does so.

Also, most gm require you to take CvC and leave it on your sheet.

 

That said, I think about a only Strong CvC (isntead of Total). Basically "Wouldn't kill, unless to save someone from imediate danger". Like going full out vs. Darkseid the second he shows up (unless he comes in peace). Or breaking Gronds neck, when he's about to crush the orphanage. And even then, I would let my character make a EGO roll to really go full out (deceiding to do so and really doing it a two diferent things).

And after that, there could be great remorse for having done it (or even for having tried; or for trying and failing).

 

Yes, the villians are an option. But even among them, few should just kill everything on the first ocassion (that is reserved for apokalyptic supervillians). The rest should go for the "pool with laser equipped sharks" to dispose of supers, not attacking them with a Killing Attack once the are k.o.

 

All of those things are purely campaign based. You are making huge assumptions about other's gaming style. Some of us play Watchmen, not Superfriends...

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

All of those things are purely campaign based. You are making huge assumptions about other's gaming style. Some of us play Watchmen' date=' not Superfriends...[/quote']

You still have to do this inside the rules, and there a plenty of things to remember when trying to make "mega-knockback", as noted above. Of course you can ignore the rules and all warnings. It is totally okay when you want to play that way.

 

But even watchmen should watch out to not knock down the empire state bulding/world trade center by punching enemy brick Nr. 2055 through it. This will totally outweight any good they have done so far and might even get the other watchmen groups to hunt them (they have clearly shown that they are a treat to the normals).

 

Even in the most gritty campaign or the supervillian biz there should be some rules to play by.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

You're moving goal posts in the argument. My post was referencing your post that dealt with campaign specific things like CvK, not anything about the legality of the power build. Responding with "well the game does have rules that need to be followed" is completely off immaterial to what I said. Pointing out that not everyone shares your play style is in no way, shape, or form an argument to ignore the rules, or even to ignore things that may be unbalancing.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

All of those things are purely campaign based. You are making huge assumptions about other's gaming style. Some of us play Watchmen' date=' not Superfriends...[/quote']

 

You still have to do this inside the rules, and there a plenty of things to remember when trying to make "mega-knockback", as noted above. Of course you can ignore the rules and all warnings. It is totally okay when you want to play that way.

 

But even watchmen should watch out to not knock down the empire state bulding/world trade center by punching enemy brick Nr. 2055 through it. This will totally outweight any good they have done so far and might even get the other watchmen groups to hunt them (they have clearly shown that they are a treat to the normals).

 

Even in the most gritty campaign or the supervillian biz there should be some rules to play by.

 

The scenario that is causing the disagreement is more like something out of the Authority, which is incidentally sort of like the Super Friends played using Watchmen's rules: awesome power applied with no real squeamishness about seriously hurting or killing someone.

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

I just meant: Even if you don't have a CvK and don't bother about living in "a world made of card stock", others will have a problem with you when you break to many things (like the Grond in Champion Universe Online). Even such gritty games like shadowrun, don't encourage excessive body count and rampant destruction.

 

And all of that is of coruse only a concern when you can (cost effectively) build such a power (or modify the rules so you can).

 

When you can build this and think you have a chance to use it without the world trying to kill you, have fun with it.

I do not jugde playing styles, genres or modifying the rulesystem. I merely point out possible flaws in what you describe and when it doesn't bother you, just go on and ignore me.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

I just meant: Even if you don't have a CvK and don't bother about living in "a world made of card stock"' date=' others will have a problem with you when you break to many things (like the Grond in Champion Universe Online). Even such gritty games like shadowrun, don't encourage excessive body count and rampant destruction.[/quote']

 

However, in any particular game, the GM may decide he doesn't care. He may well be running a villain game, in which case excessive body counts and rampant destruction are not only expected, but encouraged.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

How are you planning to hit your enemy at non-combat speed? Your OCV drops to 0' date=' [i']after[/i] you aply any bonusses so there is no way (and the GM shouldn't allow any) to get back up into the positive area (at least according to 6E2 37).

Even agianst DCV 3, you only hit on hit on a 8-

 

All I'll say is, read the Velocity Factor rules. It covers that pretty well. Even under the regular rules, if the object you're targeting is large enough to have a negative DCV(like, say, Godzilla-sized), you could be travelling the equivalent of a couple hundred miles an hour and still have a non-trivial chance to hit.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

All I'll say is' date=' read the Velocity Factor rules. It covers that pretty well. Even under the regular rules, if the object you're targeting is large enough to have a negative DCV(like, say, Godzilla-sized), you could be travelling the equivalent of a couple hundred miles an hour and still have a non-trivial chance to hit.[/quote']

 

The Knockback issue is, to me, more significant than the "noncombat move through" issue. Let's say my noncombat movement is 1,000 meters so I add 166 2/3d6 with a Move Through. Even if I do knockback, I take half the damage myself. An 84d6 attack (half of 168d6) is going to kill most characters anyway. Even the 50+d6 from a Move By (which does 1/3 damage to the attacker) is going to be significant to most characters. A high noncombat movement + something mitigating noncombat movement's impact on OCV + Resurrection or massive extra defenses for self-inflicted damage seems a pretty obvious clue for most GM's.

 

Of course, some players do treat their characters as disposable, so the problem could still arise.

 

Pretty sure there was a ruling about Megascale movement's additions to damage being based on inches (now meters), unadjusted for Megascale, but bumping ordinary noncombat speeds is pretty easy too.

 

For the same 24 DC (as noted by Bodkins Odds, this is a 24 DC attack), I could buy a 1d6 AVAD attack at, say, +2 level for a really obscure defense, tack on +1 for Does Bod, make it AoE, 1 hex for another +1/2, and make it Line of Sight Range (+1/2) so I can be really far away. Now and slap on +19 worth of Damage Over Time. How many targets will survive? For 60 points, I can have +7 worth of DoT. We'll make it every segment, of course, and say that it can't accumulate to get a really long duration.

 

It's not at all difficult to abuse the rules if you want to. The question is whether MegaScale Knockback is a gamebreaker in the specific campaign. If it is, then you can't have it (or any other means of moving an opponent several km away in one shot). If not, then there should be a way to produce the effect, and "Megascale" applied to "Knockback" seems as good an approach as any.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

The Knockback issue is, to me, more significant than the "noncombat move through" issue. Let's say my noncombat movement is 1,000 meters so I add 166 2/3d6 with a Move Through. Even if I do knockback, I take half the damage myself. An 84d6 attack (half of 168d6) is going to kill most characters anyway. Even the 50+d6 from a Move By (which does 1/3 damage to the attacker) is going to be significant to most characters. A high noncombat movement + something mitigating noncombat movement's impact on OCV + Resurrection or massive extra defenses for self-inflicted damage seems a pretty obvious clue for most GM's.

 

Of course, some players do treat their characters as disposable, so the problem could still arise.

 

Pretty sure there was a ruling about Megascale movement's additions to damage being based on inches (now meters), unadjusted for Megascale, but bumping ordinary noncombat speeds is pretty easy too.

 

For the same 24 DC, I could buy a 1d6 AVAD attack at, say, +2 level for a really obscure defense, tack on +1 for Does Bod, make it AoE, 1 hex for another +1/2, and make it Line of Sight Range (+1/2) so I can be really far away. Now and slap on +19 worth of Damage Over Time. How many targets will survive? For 60 points, I can have +7 worth of DoT. We'll make it every segment, of course, and say that it can't accumulate to get a really long duration.

 

It's not at all difficult to abuse the rules if you want to. The question is whether MegaScale Knockback is a gamebreaker in the specific campaign. If it is, then you can't have it (or any other means of moving an opponent several km away in one shot). If not, then there should be a way to produce the effect, and "Megascale" applied to "Knockback" seems as good an approach as any.

 

Right, but going back to the optional velocity factor rules, one of the reasons it exists is because, beyond about 50 or 60" of movement, the velocity-based damage rules are broken. Hitting something at Mach 1 should not do as much damage as a nuclear bomb blast wave.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

Right' date=' but going back to the optional velocity factor rules, one of the reasons it exists is because, beyond about 50 or 60" of movement, the velocity-based damage rules are broken. Hitting something at Mach 1 should not do as much damage as a nuclear bomb blast wave.[/quote']

 

I think that happened because the designers expected the GMs to say "NO!" at some point, exercising common and dramatic sense. When we aren't talking about objects, the answer is "OK, it's destroyed","There's a huge hole in it" or "You're like a bug on a windshield." When we're talking about characters, it's "You win, but you're both dead." The rules may be a bit broken at times, but we don't have to overtly game the system.

[Lucius]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

Also, most gm require you to take CvC and leave it on your sheet.

 

 

They do?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary isn't sure what a CvC is, but suggests laundering the sheet

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

However' date=' in any particular game, the GM may decide he doesn't care. He may well be running a villain game, in which case excessive body counts and rampant destruction are not only expected, but encouraged.[/quote']

That falls under "if you find a way to use it, so that the world doesn't want to kill you".

 

The Knockback issue is' date=' to me, more significant than the "noncombat move through" issue. Let's say my noncombat movement is 1,000 meters so I add 166 2/3d6 with a Move Through. Even if I do knockback, I take half the damage myself. An 84d6 attack (half of 168d6) is going to kill most characters anyway.[/quote']

 

Right' date=' but going back to the optional velocity factor rules, one of the reasons it exists is because, beyond about 50 or 60" of movement, the velocity-based damage rules are broken. Hitting something at Mach 1 should not do as much damage as a nuclear bomb blast wave.[/quote']

It is highly disencouraged for any gm to allow any mitigating factos (and technically, you can't even aply any bonusses. They all come before the drop to 0%). Also, I would just limit the max damage to PD+Remaining Postive Body + Maximum Negative Body, like with anything you throw, hit your enemy with or run into (but accounting for hero's higher "breaking" point). After that, all you can do with more speed is smear your remains over a greater area....

And Nuclear Blast Strengt Force on a 2x0.5 Meter area is not that unreseonable (if you have the defenses + body to archieve it). After all, what does a bullet if not putting a lot of force on a very small area?

 

Pretty sure there was a ruling about Megascale movement's additions to damage being based on inches (now meters)' date=' unadjusted for Megascale, but bumping ordinary noncombat speeds is pretty easy too. [/quote']

At least the rules for Move Through/Move By say you can't use them with Megascale movement. So it may be resonable to not allow any attack while megascale moving.

 

If not' date=' then there should be a way to produce the effect, and "Megascale" applied to "Knockback" seems as good an approach as any.[/quote']Not within the rules, since Knockback is not a power. It's an (optional) side effect hitting with an attack. If you want to play with it, don't hit any important moons with enemys;)

 

The palindromedary isn't sure what a CvC is' date=' but suggests laundering the sheet[/quote']

My bad, wrong choice of words. Was still in the superhero genre back then.

Also, CvC means "Code vs. Killing" (well, at least I though it means that. But I just noticed that there is no second C.... )

[megaplayboy]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

Well, very crudely, Mach 1 is roughly 300 meters per second. A 100kg object moving at 300m/sec. has a kinetic energy of 4.5 megajoules(roughly equal to that of a modern armor-piercing tank gun round). Assuming listed Strength lift value = the ability to lift the listed weight at least .5 m off the ground and carry it for a few steps, then a 10 STR has a total potential energy of about 500 joules. Maybe the average person can put only about 1/16 of that into a punch(around 30 joules). So, if 10 STR = 30 joules of kinetic energy = 2d6, then 60 STR = 30k joules = 12d6, and 85 STR = about 1 million joules = 17d6, and a 95 STR punch is roughly equivalent to slamming a 100kg weight into someone at Mach 1.

But in the current rules, it would do around 60+ d6. I don't have the VF rules in front of me, but I'm pretty sure the damage is much closer to what's listed above.

Point being, if you use the velocity factor rules instead of the normal velocity-based damage rules, you could use things like mega-knockback and mega-movethroughs without everything turning into a red smear outlined in friction marks.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

Not within the rules' date=' since Knockback is not a power. It's an (optional) side effect hitting with an attack. If you want to play with it, don't hit any important moons with enemys;)[/quote']

 

Neither "range" nor "area" are powers either. They are aspects of powers which can be megascaled. Knockback can reasonably be interpreted as an aspect of a power which moves an opponent.

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

Neither "range" nor "area" are powers either. They are aspects of powers which can be megascaled. Knockback can reasonably be interpreted as an aspect of a power which moves an opponent.

Right, but the text explicitly says that AOE or "Powers that work on Range" could be megascaled. Like it explicitly counts Movement Powers.

Also, don't forget this important sentence:

"It [Megascale] is intended to allow characters to create interesting, useful, and flavorful abilities (often non-combat ones), not to make it easy to build planet-destroying weapons for just a few points or to allow a character to travel anywhere he wants instantly."

When you can define Megascaled Knockback in a way that does not remove or kills everyone you hit, than it might be applicable.

If you want to just one-hit your enemys or take them out of the fight for a long time, then it is not.

 

When it gets more powerfull in taking out/disabling your enemys than a 80 AP Blast, a 80 AP Entangle, or "Desolidification, Useable on others" - than imho it would simply be powergaming.

 

[Edit: On your logic, what about damage? Could it be megascaled?]

[Lucius]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

Neither "range" nor "area" are powers either. They are aspects of powers which can be megascaled. Knockback can reasonably be interpreted as an aspect of a power which moves an opponent.

 

I'll have to come back and reputize this later

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Megascale Palindromedary

[Steve]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

[Edit: On your logic' date= what about damage? Could it be megascaled?]

 

I actually had a conversation with a friend of mine concerning Megascaled damage as a way of differentiating human level damage from vehicle-level damage and up from there to monstrous battleships. Defenses would be scaled up the same way. So a bare-handed human attacking a battleship just can't do enough damage to break a hull plate no matter how many dice he throws against another human. A gun is one level higher in megascale so could affect a vehicle that was megascale level one, etc.

 

We just weren't sure how to scale damage from a higher-megascaled vehicle down to lower megascaled targets.

[Lucius]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

[Edit: On your logic' date= what about damage? Could it be megascaled?]

 

If you measure damage in meters, maybe.

 

Most people I know who play Hero measure damage in points of BOD and STUN, so for them, no.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

What measure is a palindromedary?

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

I actually had a conversation with a friend of mine concerning Megascaled damage as a way of differentiating human level damage from vehicle-level damage and up from there to monstrous battleships. [...]We just weren't sure how to scale damage from a higher-megascaled vehicle down to lower megascaled targets.

Actually I know that the old Star Wars D6 System dealt with exaclty this. The scales there were: Human, Speeder (Car, Aircraft), AT (Tanks), Spacefighter, Battleship, Deathstar (yes, they really had that category in the Basic Rulebook).

 

The idea was for example, that a speeder and a human had a 3:6 scale. When human attacks speeder, speeders dodge dice were "capped" at 3. As were the humans damage dice agianst the speeder (who could of course us his full dice).

On the other hand, the speeder-scale attack had it's hit dice capped at 3, but the humans resistance dice were capped 3 either (So you are harder to hit, but easier to damage or vice versa).

 

Of course, sometimes you could use different scale weapons: Anti Vehicle weapons, Anti-Fighter Lasercannons for Battleships. And there were area-damage effects.

 

For here the main difficulty would be, how to apply scale to defenses and DCV(or OCV).