Mega Knockback in 6th

[Steve]

In 5th edition, there was a Brick power that allowed you to do mega-knockback (measured in miles rather than yards), but I can't seem to do that in 6th.

 

How would you do this in 6th edition?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

IIRC, in 5e, it was just a 'well, it doesn't really work by the rules, but we'll let it slide' application of the Megascale advantage on one's STR. I presume it would work the same in 6e, if the Megascale advantage exists.

 

Just to mention, I wouldn't recommend allowing it. If the person to send flying miles away doesn't have a megascaled movement power, he's out of the battle with a single move. I would question the balance.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

There's a few ways to do it--this being Hero, of course there are.

You can grandfather in Megaknockback, though now it costs a lot more(+1 advantage on STR).

You are now permitted to purchase the double Knockback advantage multiple times, though this would get prohibitively expensive if you bought it enough to get into the "miles" category.

You can add a movement power, Leaping or Flight, Usable Against Others, linked to your STR, and contingent on doing KB. You could also megascale this movement power.

That's pretty much it. Well, maybe some kind of funky Megarange TK, linked to STR, but that gets really hinky.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

megaplayboy's onto something there: megascaled leaping, usable as an attack, linked to STR, limited to the meters of KB done by the base attack.

 

And if you send 'em flying at 8kps or higher, they might not come back down!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

There's a few ways to do it--this being Hero, of course there are.

You can grandfather in Megaknockback, though now it costs a lot more(+1 advantage on STR). You can add a movement power, Leaping or Flight, Usable Against Others, linked to your STR, and contingent on doing KB. You could also megascale this movement power.

 

Hmmmm...

 

Let's say the character has 60 STR, so he'll average 10 meters knockback. He can spend 60 points to make the Knockback megascale as a naked advantage on his STR and, on average, knock the target back 10 km (or 5 km, I forget which).

 

Or he buys 10 meters Leaping (5 base points), UAA (+1), Megascale (+1) - 15 AP - Linked to Punch (-1/2) 10 real points and knock the opponent back 10 km every time.

 

In addition to working every time, the second approach costs way less END and doesn't drain away if STR gets drained. And he gets his regular STR knockback to boot.

 

Maybe Megascaled Knockback isn't all that unbalanced, comparatively.

 

The question, as CC notes, is whether you want a character able to remove most opponents from the battle with a single hit.

[Steve]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

Well, with megascaled movement, an enemy can be back on the scene pretty quickly. A fight between two characters with both megascaled movement and knockback will really cover a lot of landscape.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

I didn't like that build when I saw it the first time. I would be more inclined to model this as multiple purchases of Double Knockback as a Naked Advantage. I'd even allow it as a Brick Trick with a Power Skill roll. That would strike the right dramatic tone, every once in a while. I can't see this as being desirable beyond a certain point.

 

This is potentially abusive and it should cost dearly. I would be as leery about this as I would be about an Extra Dimensional or Megascale Teleport UAA with an area effect on it.

[Tasha]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

As long as the damage was based on the non advantaged meters of Movement, I wouldn't have an issue with it. Otherwise, you are just setting up a way to roll hundreds of D6 damage and Kill the target.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

As long as the damage was based on the non advantaged meters of Movement' date=' I wouldn't have an issue with it. Otherwise, you are just setting up a way to roll hundreds of D6 damage and Kill the target.[/quote']

 

Eh. I'd probably use the optional velocity factor rules for calculating damage instead. Otherwise, yeah, you'd probably wind up killing a lot of opponents.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

As long as the damage was based on the non advantaged meters of Movement' date=' I wouldn't have an issue with it. Otherwise, you are just setting up a way to roll hundreds of D6 damage and Kill the target.[/quote']

 

It's not always the damage that would worry me. With this power, you could remove many normally annoying opponents from the battlefield for the length of the average combat.

 

If the enemy mentalist is causing an issue, I hit him once and send him 5 or more km down the road. He is no longer in line of sight, so he can't target anyone new. Odds are that the landing will stun or kill them. Even if they are good to go when they land, they probably cannot get back even at non combat speeds before we have time to thin the field and then focus all of our attention on them. That is if they can get back in a reasonable amount of time at all.

 

This is even worse for people who have attacks that don't work at range, or even standard range modifiers. If the character suffering that level of knockback doesn't have a good movement rate, this is almost the equivalent of sending them into deep negative STUN tactically.

 

This type of thing might only be appropriate for high-end or even cosmic-level games where the response might be to just come back in a phase or two, and most characters would be capable of doing that. At the basic starting power level I prefer for supers games (5E 350-450 / 6E 400-500 ) this might be very hard to manage.

 

IMO it should always be very expensive and/or used very sparingly on a skill roll.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

I haven't checked the book yet but HDv3 allows multiple instances of x2 KB to be applied to the same power.

 

example:

48 x16 KB Punch: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)

 

I believe the Advantage Prorating rules means that a 60 STR character would get to add 4d6 from STR to this to do an average of ~ 200 meters KB.

And the velocity from this would count as full damage IF the target hit something with enough defenses (the side of a MOUNTAIN maybe?!) but normally the target would probably just punch a hole through whatever gets in their way.

Pretty nasty but it would cost 12 END (6 for STR and 6 for the Advantaged HA) and any superhero with a CVK would hesitate to use vs. anyone they might hurt * and x2 KB is a StopSign Advantage.

 

*

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

As long as the damage was based on the non advantaged meters of Movement' date=' I wouldn't have an issue with it. Otherwise, you are just setting up a way to roll hundreds of D6 damage and Kill the target.[/quote']

 

I wouldn't give bonus damage at all; that DEFINITELY makes it abusive.

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

Double Knockback itself isn't STOP sing as long as you only buy one instance (and stay in the ap limits). Just the option to add multiple instances is a STOP sign GM-Option.

 

About the JLU scene: Anybody noticed the slight influence from dragonball?

[dmjalund]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

Man of Steel. City of Kleenex.

[Vanguard]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

I haven't checked the book yet but HDv3 allows multiple instances of x2 KB to be applied to the same power.

 

example:

48 x16 KB Punch: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)

 

I believe the Advantage Prorating rules means that a 60 STR character would get to add 4d6 from STR to this to do an average of ~ 200 meters KB.

And the velocity from this would count as full damage IF the target hit something with enough defenses (the side of a MOUNTAIN maybe?!) but normally the target would probably just punch a hole through whatever gets in their way.

Pretty nasty but it would cost 12 END (6 for STR and 6 for the Advantaged HA) and any superhero with a CVK would hesitate to use vs. anyone they might hurt * and x2 KB is a StopSign Advantage.

 

 

If I recall correctly, in 5th Ed you can still take damage from an object your KBed into. You just can only take an amount of damage equal to the Body + Defense of the target you hit. If you're taking more KB than the target you hit, you take the damage then subtract the dice from the remaining KB and continue on your merry way. Rinsing and repeating for everything you connect with until you stop. Normally, the incidental impacts don't matter much in a superheroic level game 'cause you've got the defenses to withstand them. (Hopefully). Where it really comes into play is, like you mentioned, when/if you hit a mountain side.

 

I haven't checked on KB in 6th because we don't use it since we've mainly been playing Heroic level games that rarely, if ever, use KB.

[Outsider]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

Trust me, if Mega-Knockback-Man has 200m of knockback (100" in 5th Ed, ie 100D6 of damage) available, he will arrange to have his target hit somethng solid enough. Be it doing the knockback from above, such that the target immediately hits the ground for 100D6, or carefully arranging where he punches from such that his target gets knocked back into another opponent (they BOTH take up to 100 D6! Joy!), or by synergizing with his teammate who has UAA Teleport with reorientation.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

I haven't checked the book yet but HDv3 allows multiple instances of x2 KB to be applied to the same power.

 

example:

48 x16 KB Punch: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)

 

I believe the Advantage Prorating rules means that a 60 STR character would get to add 4d6 from STR to this to do an average of ~ 200 meters KB.

And the velocity from this would count as full damage IF the target hit something with enough defenses (the side of a MOUNTAIN maybe?!) but normally the target would probably just punch a hole through whatever gets in their way.

Pretty nasty but it would cost 12 END (6 for STR and 6 for the Advantaged HA) and any superhero with a CVK would hesitate to use vs. anyone they might hurt * and x2 KB is a StopSign Advantage.

 

If I were the GM, I would make you make the player buy that Naked Advantage on up to the full cost of your STR, including what you could push to potentially, so Mr. 60 STR would have to take that modifier on 70 AP. This option should be expensive. I don't like taking it on that 20 AP and then applying it to a much more powerful attack, even though it is technically rules legal. Stop signs on entries mean something in this game sytem.

 

Trust me' date=' if Mega-Knockback-Man has 200m of knockback (100" in 5th Ed, ie 100D6 of damage) available, he will arrange to have his target hit somethng solid enough. Be it doing the knockback from above, such that the target immediately hits the ground for 100D6, or carefully arranging where he punches from such that his target gets knocked back into another opponent (they BOTH take up to 100 D6! Joy!), or by synergizing with his teammate who has UAA Teleport with reorientation.[/quote']

 

Yep. This is a risky build.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

Also, it's effectively a twenty-four DC attack in any case, and would only be allowed in a campaign where characters are supposed to have such mind-bogglingly massive attacks.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

Wow!!

 

Did everyone just miss or ignore the Code vs. Killing part of my post?

Just because a character is physically capable of something it doesn't mean they are also mentally capable of it too.

This is just one more reason the 'FULLY mind controlled brick' seem so much more powerful than they do when 'in their right mind' (they are usually holding back, by a LOT).

[Tasha]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

I haven't checked the book yet but HDv3 allows multiple instances of x2 KB to be applied to the same power.

 

example:

48 x16 KB Punch: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)

 

I believe the Advantage Prorating rules means that a 60 STR character would get to add 4d6 from STR to this to do an average of ~ 200 meters KB.

And the velocity from this would count as full damage IF the target hit something with enough defenses (the side of a MOUNTAIN maybe?!) but normally the target would probably just punch a hole through whatever gets in their way.

Pretty nasty but it would cost 12 END (6 for STR and 6 for the Advantaged HA) and any superhero with a CVK would hesitate to use vs. anyone they might hurt * and x2 KB is a StopSign Advantage.

 

I had a player make a similar power. Though it wasn't 200m KB, but it was enough for me to ask that he tone the power down. I think he was able to do 20d6 or so in KB damage on a hit. It was excessive and I made him nerf it.

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

Did everyone just miss or ignore the Code vs. Killing part of my post?

Just because a character is physically capable of something it doesn't mean they are also mentally capable of it too.

This is just one more reason the 'FULLY mind controlled brick' seem so much more powerful than they do when 'in their right mind' (they are usually holding back, by a LOT).

This is exaclty why superman didn't do this ealier. He even explains it, word by word.

 

Also, you mostly seem to forget something: Knockback is based on BODY damage rolled with an attack (before defenses). In order for it to count for STR + the Powers damage, you have to buy it for both: "Durak (STR 70) can smash his enemies around the battlefield as if they were croquet balls. To reflect this, he buys an Advantage for his STR: Double Knockback (+½) for up to 70 STR. Total cost: 35 points"

So this usually hits the 80 Active Point Limit before you hit x8 (3 instances), 4x only go when you use 40 STR max (or 40 BP attack power). In order to count for both, you have to pay it for both: 2x80 Active Pionts, only one can go into a Framework (how many GM allow you 160 Point Reserve Multipowers?). Even with hth-Limitation it 64 Real Cost for both (so without the cost fot the Multipower, 70 Character Points).

And even then you still have to hit them and run around with two combinable powers, that wear big red stop sings around their necks. Even as a player I would want to play with a power gamer that coocks up such builds.

 

Side node: When I understand it right, values for Mountains will be present in the APG II. But that is mostly for cosmic campaigns, I guess.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

I'll just put in another plug for using the velocity factor rules. It makes things like massive knockback and non-combat-speed movethroughs survivable.

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

I'll just put in another plug for using the velocity factor rules. It makes things like massive knockback and non-combat-speed movethroughs survivable.

How are you planning to hit your enemy at non-combat speed? Your OCV drops to 0, after you aply any bonusses so there is no way (and the GM shouldn't allow any) to get back up into the positive area (at least according to 6E2 37).

Even agianst DCV 3, you only hit on hit on a 8-

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

Have a buddy entangle the target first, that put's the target's DCV at 0 which is the same relative CV as an AOE Accurate Attack. >.>

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Mega Knockback in 6th

 

At 0 OCV won't an 8- still hit a DCV 3, which is what most "normals" have?

 

Besides, I think you are rather missing his point since he is also refering to Knockback damage. Also, you can have accidental Non-Combat Movethroughs, like flying into something because of your turn mode, or because someone through a Barrier in front of you while you were travelling at Non-Com speeds.