Background Skill in Combat

[purple justice]

If someone who controlls the weather use the lightning bolt against me , can I use my scientific skill to jump on the nearest electricity unconductor - a car wheel next to my foot - which 'll separate me from the earth ???

 

Or use acupuncture to needle a point ??

[Darbor]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

I think you could jump onto an insulator (unconductor). I think it would depend on your opponents power limitations to decide if your counter-move was effective. Does the lightning bolt have a modifier that says that the victim must be grounded for it to be effective?

[purple justice]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

No , but the last power - weather control - allows to control the lightning ( from the sky to the earnt ).

And a human body can only be electrified if the foot touched the earth.

[Tasha]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

If someone who controlls the weather use the lightning bolt against me , can I use my scientific skill to jump on the nearest electricity unconductor - a car wheel next to my foot - which 'll separate me from the earth ???

 

Or use acupuncture to needle a point ??

 

Things like this depend on the GM. The first time that Weather Woman uses lightning bolt on your character I might rule that because you aren't grounded you take less damage (ie 8d6 instead of 10d6), or I might rule that since lightning is such a high voltage that it doesn't matter if you are standing on a rubber tire, that it will still arc to the ground (BTW Lightning starts at the ground and arcs up to the sky).

 

Basically little things that take advantage of a power's special effect are things that I as a GM give small bonuses if you can take advantage in a way that I can believe. If you do the same thing more than once, I may have you buy it as a power.

 

This is similar to a PC picking up an agent's gun for use in combat. Totally OK, but if you want to carry a gun on every adventure you need to pay for it with points (this is assuming that we are playing a Superheroic genre game like Champions).

[Darbor]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

Yes, I agree about lightning in the real world. But in Hero you need to say very specifically what the control of the lightning can do.

 

I hope one of the more experienced folks will weigh in on this. The general principle in Hero System is that things (weapons, shields, weather effects, other powers) are specified according to what they accomplish in game terms. So to say that someone controls lightning isn't enough. You have to define what they can do with the lightning. This is what sets hero apart from other game systems and why in the other thread I said it was well balanced. It's because you essentially buy capability with your points then you give that capability a wonderful dramatic effect and voila, you have lightning.

[purple justice]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

Thanks for the advice.

I think I will understand better when I 'll study powers.

Now I just began Skills... And I already have a lot of difficulties to understand ( For instance , why there is a Skill nicknamed " Power" , or how CSLs functiun or why some Skills are either based on a characteristic or either BR = 11- or why in a combat the fighter with the highest DEX begin ... )

[Darbor]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

Well, that is a lot that you are working on. I admire your energy and willingness to dive in.

 

Combat Skill Levels (CSLs)allow you to become a better fighter using skills. In our game we role play it that you have to train with a style of fighting, or simply use it in battles to be allowed by the GM to buy up levels. How general or specific a skill is determines the cost. It costs more to buy CSL for all Hand to Hand fighting than for just fighting with swords. But if you have bought the CSL for swords only then you can only use it if you are fighting with a sword. You have to decide what that CSL for swords will apply to, if it is just one point then it adds a point to your OCV or to your DCV (you need 2 to improve damage). If you have two points then you can improve your OCV by two, your DCV by two, split them to improve both OCV and DCV by one, or you can improve your damage class by one. As you get more points you can split them how you want between the three. But you can't change the split more than once in a phase.

 

The skills based on characterstic (in 5E) reflects that the characteristic is closely related to the skill and that if you have a better characteristic you will naturally have a better skill. That has gone away in 6E.

 

The highest DEX (dexterity) implies that you are the quickest and should then go first.

[Tasha]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

Well, that is a lot that you are working on. I admire your energy and willingness to dive in.

 

Combat Skill Levels (CSLs)allow you to become a better fighter using skills. In our game we role play it that you have to train with a style of fighting, or simply use it in battles to be allowed by the GM to buy up levels. How general or specific a skill is determines the cost. It costs more to buy CSL for all Hand to Hand fighting than for just fighting with swords. But if you have bought the CSL for swords only then you can only use it if you are fighting with a sword. You have to decide what that CSL for swords will apply to, if it is just one point then it adds a point to your OCV or to your DCV (you need 2 to improve damage). If you have two points then you can improve your OCV by two, your DCV by two, split them to improve both OCV and DCV by one, or you can improve your damage class by one. As you get more points you can split them how you want between the three. But you can't change the split more than once in a phase.

 

The skills based on characterstic (in 5E) reflects that the characteristic is closely related to the skill and that if you have a better characteristic you will naturally have a better skill. That has gone away in 6E.

 

The highest DEX (dexterity) implies that you are the quickest and should then go first.

 

BTW in 6e Stats are STILL connected to Skill rolls. High Int, or High Dex will give you better rolls than someone with 10s in the stats.

 

Now it is true that in combat, that Combat value is no longer attached to Dex or Ego.

 

Combat Skill Levels are there to allow for characters who are better in combat because of training, not just because of Native talent. Using CSL's effectively is part of the system, and can be quite interesting during combat play. When it comes to buying CSL's my philosophy is to let the player do it as long as the character stays within the CV boundries of the campaign.

 

The Power skill is there to pull off "Power Tricks". Which are basically weird effects that you try to pull off with the skill roll. ie the Invisible Woman who has force field skills uses her forcewall skill to make mini prisons to hold people. Today she is really mad that the Villain has threatened her children and gets the idea to put a forcefield around the head of her opponent, cutting off his oxygen supply. Now she doesn't have this power on her character sheet, but she has the power skill. So the GM has her make a Power skill roll to try to use her power in this unique way. In a later combat she wants to try the same thing, she should purchase the power.

 

Power skill is also the skill used when characters want to use "Requires a Roll " and is typically used for Fantasy Hero magic systems.

[Mickael]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

In 6E2 (148-149), in the chapter about Electricity, there is something about the insulation of the target of a lightning or similar effects. It is up to the GM to consider the number of dice in the power as an average whatever the level of insulation is, or to decrease (or increase) the power effect depending on the level of insulation. The GM may even allow a limitation for powers affected by insulation.

[Tasha]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

In 6E2 (148-149)' date=' in the chapter about Electricity, there is something about the insulation of the target of a lightning or similar effects. It is up to the GM to consider the number of dice in the power as an average whatever the level of insulation is, or to decrease (or increase) the power effect depending on the level of insulation. The GM may even allow a limitation for powers affected by insulation.[/quote']

 

That section is more about environmental electricity (ie powerlines or natural lightning). It's pretty much what I said earlier in the thread http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/84201-Background-Skill-in-Combat?p=2132055#post2132055

 

It's really up to the GM to adjudicate any on the spot defenses vs a Special effect. Like I said it's usually not more than a couple of dice less than normal for the attack.

[purple justice]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

The highest DEX (dexterity) implies that you are the quickest and should then go first.

I thought what you are describing would be the SPEED characterisic.

But if you have bought the CSL for swords only then you can only use

But before you had to buy the Common melee weapon. I suppose.

 

CSLs :

 

I understand the 2-point CSLs (the only and the same technique - example : wristlock when someone grab your right wrist - duration : one phase ? ; + 1 OCV ; cost : 2 Character Points)

 

I think I understand the 10-CSLs ( every technics ; + 1 OCV or DCV ; duration : one phase ; HTH & Ranged combat ; cost : 8 CP and not 10 CP ? )

 

I think I understand the 8-CSLs ( every technics ; + 1 OCV or DCV ; duration ; one phase ; HTH or Ranged combat ; cost : 8 CP )

 

 

The 5-CSLs : I understand nothing.

 

The 3-CSLs : I feel like a monkey in a high school.

[Tasha]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

I thought what you are describing would be the SPEED characterisic.

 

But before you had to buy the Common melee weapon. I suppose.

 

CSLs :

 

I understand the 2-point CSLs (the only and the same technique - example : wristlock when someone grab your right wrist - duration : one phase ? ; + 1 OCV ; cost : 2 Character Points)

 

I think I understand the 10-CSLs ( every technics ; + 1 OCV or DCV ; duration : one phase ; HTH & Ranged combat ; cost : 8 CP and not 10 CP ? )

 

I think I understand the 8-CSLs ( every technics ; + 1 OCV or DCV ; duration ; one phase ; HTH or Ranged combat ; cost : 8 CP )

 

 

The 5-CSLs : I understand nothing.

 

The 3-CSLs : I feel like a monkey in a high school.

 

Speed is how many times your character has an action during a 12 second time period. This is tied into the Speed chart which spread's a character's actions over that 12 second turn. Dexterity gives us the order that people go during a segment (High Dex first Low Dex Last)

 

You only need to purchase a Weapon Familiarity if you are playing a Heroic Genre (ie Fantasy Hero, Star Hero etc). Abilities you pay points for like spells and Superheroic Powers don't need a Weapon Familarity.

 

2 Point CSL = Single attack (ie Firebolt, Colt .45 single action pistol, Punch) (OCV or Damage Class only)

3 Point CSL = Small Group of attacks usually around 3 attacks or so (ie Weapon Group Pistols, or any 3 attacks) (OCV, DCV, DC)

5 Point CSL = Large Group of Attacks (ie Weapon Group Small arms, Weapon Group Common Melee weapons, a Multipower with more than 3 attacks) (OCV, DCV, DC)

8 Point CSL = All Ranged Combat, All Hand to Hand Combat (OCV, DCV, DC)

10 Point CSL = All Combat attacks. (OCV, DCV, DC)

12 Point Skill Level = Overall (OCV, DCV, DC, Skill rolls, Perk Rolls, OMCV, DMCV, etc see Skill levels for more info).

 

As you pay more points you gain flexability with the CSL.

 

Skill levels last till the beginning of your next Phase (or the top of the segment, depends on GM). During your phase you can reallocate your levels as you see fit

[Darbor]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

SPEED (SPD) is a measure of how fast you can fight. In game terms:

 

SPD determines how many times you can act per turn. A turn is 12 segments and your speed determines how many phases (segments where you act) you have in one turn. A speed of 3 will give you 3 phases per turn, you will act on segments 4, 8, and 12. SPD of 4 means your phases are on segments 3, 6, 9 and 12.

 

DEX determines in what order you act within each segment you act on (phase). It is typical that there is more than one PC and/or NPC acting in the same segment and all PCs and NPCs act on segment 12. So within each segment when there are more than one that are acting, DEX determines the order they act.

 

 

As for CSLs I find the definitions a bit confusing too. Fortunately my GM takes care of those details and we usually use terms like Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons, Swords, Staffs, etc.

[purple justice]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

You only need to purchase a Weapon Familiarity if you are playing a Heroic Genre (ie Fantasy Hero, Star Hero etc). Abilities you pay points for like spells and Superheroic Powers don't need a Weapon Familarity

I am sorry but I am sure you are wrong.

BR says you have -3 0CV when your character uses any weapon without the WF. It is not only in the skill section , but in the combat section too.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

I am sorry but I am sure you are wrong.

BR says you have -3 0CV when your character uses any weapon without the WF. It is not only in the skill section , but in the combat section too.

 

from 6e1 page 94

 

Weapon Familiarity represents the knowledge of how to use specific weapons. It’s used primarily in Heroic campaigns; characters in Superheroic campaigns, who pay Character Points for their weapons, automatically know how to use them (see 6E2 180).

from 6e2 page 180

 

Superheroic characters not only build equipment with Character Points, they must pay Character Points for it as well. A character (in any type of campaign) never has to buy a Skill to use weapons or equipment he bought with Character Points, unless some Limitation requires him to. However, this does not extend to other equipment of that same type. For example, if a character pays Character Points for a motorcycle, he doesn’t gain TF: Two-Wheeled Motorized Ground Vehicles for free — he just has the ability to drive that one motorcycle.

[Tasha]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

One thing to think about when reading the rules is that there is actually 2 different games in the same book. One that is the most awesome Superhero game on the planet. The other is the best Multigenre non superheroic game on the planet. They are VERY similar to one another and share nearly all of the same rules. The Superheroic game cuts back on some of the detail in combat and skills that Heroic games have.

 

That's why in a Heroic level game characters buy weapons and armor with money and with character points buy Familiarity skills to learn the basics of their use.

 

In a Superheroic game one buys powers with character points and does not have to purchase a Familiarity skill to use those powers.

 

Also in combat Heroic Level Games tend to use Hit Location, Disabling wounding, Bleeding, Knockdown and other advanced combat rules. Superheroic level games use KnockBack, Simplified bleeding, and Simplified Pushing.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that not all rules are appropriate for all Genres that you may use the rules in. Reading a Genre book can make this clear. I recommend Champions and Fantasy Hero as good places to start. Star Hero is going to be released at GenCon if everything goes to plan. Using the rules within the framework of a Genre book is a key to understanding the rules that apply to that genre. It will also increase your understanding of the rules in general.

 

@PurpleJustice and Darbor, I have been playing and GMing Hero System games since the early 80's. I don't tend to post rule stuff unless I am sure about it (If I am not completely sure I look it up in the book).

[Darbor]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

@PurpleJustice and Darbor' date=' I have been playing and GMing Hero System games since the early 80's. I don't tend to post rule stuff unless I am sure about it (If I am not completely sure I look it up in the book).[/quote']

Yeah, I don't tend to do that either. In this case I was sure but wrong. Thanks for correcting me.

[purple justice]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

Weapon Familiarity represents the knowledge of how to use specific weapons. It’s used primarily in Heroic campaigns; characters in Superheroic campaigns, who pay Character Points for their weapons, automatically know how to use them

Here is the most important world according to me.

For example, if a character pays Character Points for a motorcycle, he doesn’t gain TF: Two-Wheeled Motorized Ground Vehicles for free — he just has the ability to drive that one motorcycle.

Yes I full agree with you and what you are saying.

If I create Beta Ray Bill , I will have to pay with Character Points for Strombreaker's creation ( his hammer ) . No need to buy WF after.

But if Beta Ray Bill is stunned during a fight against Thanos, Captain America would be able to lift Strombreaker and... That's all. He is not familiar to fight with a hammer. So, I would give a penaltyt of -3 to OCV . Correct or not ?

 

Sorry for taking example with superheros from an other compagny , but I dont know enough Defender and his friends .

[Tasha]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

Here is the most important world according to me.

 

Yes I full agree with you and what you are saying.

If I create Beta Ray Bill , I will have to pay with Character Points for Strombreaker's creation ( his hammer ) . No need to buy WF after.

But if Beta Ray Bill is stunned during a fight against Thanos, Captain America would be able to lift Strombreaker and... That's all. He is not familiar to fight with a hammer. So, I would give a penaltyt of -3 to OCV . Correct or not ?

 

Sorry for taking example with superheros from an other compagny , but I dont know enough Defender and his friends .

 

Stormbreaker and Mjolnir are kind of special cases as technically (by the genre conventions) anyone who is worthy should be able to wield the hammer. By the strictest interpretation of the HS rules, yes Cap would take a -3 to hit for not having weapon familiarity Thrown Hammer, Melee weapon familarity Axes, Maces, Hammer. In practice as a Champions GM I tend to be less worried about some of the Heroic Rules like Weapon Familarity. I would probably let Captain America use Stormbreaker with no penalties (assuming he can lift it and I decide that he's worthy).

 

When I run a Fantasy Hero game, If Steve the Swordsman, were to pick up William's hammer and try to use it. I would assess the non Familarity penalty if Steve hadn't purchased Weapon Familiarity Axes, Maces and Hammers. I am more strict for Heroic Genre games because this kind of combat detail is part of the genre and is expected.

 

Using Established Supers is fine, more people know who they are.

[Ice9]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

I think I would decrease SFX:Electricity attacks (to a degree) against insulated targets, whether or not there was a specific limitation on them. By the same token, I would give them a bonus to hit against targets that are wet or a standing on a metal floor (or maybe make them a small AoE), without requiring an advantage. Now if the player wanted to defined their SFX as "Magic Lightning" that ignores insulation, that's fine - but then they wouldn't get the "metal floor" bonus either.

 

They only case I'd require explicit advantages / limitations is for a SFX that has a lot more benefits than disadvantages, or vice-versa. For instance, if someone wanted Magic Fire that could ignite flammable things and heat up a room, but didn't need oxygen and burned through asbestos, then they would have to buy advantages/side powers for any benefits.

[purple justice]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

Thanks for the answers , guys.

What would you do if a weaponed super hero lost its weapon ? Will you apply -3 OCV ?

[GAZZA]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

Thanks for the answers , guys.

What would you do if a weaponed super hero lost its weapon ? Will you apply -3 OCV ?

Lost his weapon to another character, or lost his weapon and grabbed a similar one?

 

Strictly speaking, if you didn't pay points for the weapon, and you don't have WF, then you're at -3 OCV. I can't think of too many cases where I've actually remembered that in the heat of the moment, nor do I generally apply it if a brick throws a car at someone (it is, after all, technically a thrown weapon). That's not to say that I wouldn't apply it if I did remember, it just doesn't come up that often in my superhero games.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

I think the GM needs to decide whether he's going to apply the WF rule in a Supers game. It discourages using the other characters' foci, which is good for schtick preservation. It can reduce the incentive for high STR characters to use thrown objects or large objects to leverage their STR when you ask "Do you have WF: Lamp post?". It also gives a bonus to the character who did purchase a WF or two as part of their background if they can benefit from that once or twice in play.

 

However, I share Gazza's experience that it rarely comes up in play for most Supers games.

[Tasha]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

Lost his weapon to another character, or lost his weapon and grabbed a similar one?

 

Strictly speaking, if you didn't pay points for the weapon, and you don't have WF, then you're at -3 OCV. I can't think of too many cases where I've actually remembered that in the heat of the moment, nor do I generally apply it if a brick throws a car at someone (it is, after all, technically a thrown weapon). That's not to say that I wouldn't apply it if I did remember, it just doesn't come up that often in my superhero games.

 

non weapon Thrown things (ie rocks etc) cost 0 CP as a WF

 

Also bricks using lamp posts, cars and other objects as Clubs is also covered as those items are also 0 CP (ie WF Clubs 0pts)

 

When I am playing Superheroic games I don't worry about the little stuff like does the Hero have the specific WF to use the whatever it is they found laying around. I would make them spend points on the item if they always grabbed said weapon and used it in adventures.

 

Now If I was playing a gritty Low Powered Supers game where nearly everyone carries Guns and other weapons esp if we were using the equipment rules for attacks. ie Guns, Swords, etc don't cost Character points. Then I would enforce the Wpn Familiarity skill. I would also make sure that everyone knew that before the campaign started.

[purple justice]

Re: Background Skill in Combat

 

I meant a character who losts its special weapon and must fight with the empty hands.

 

list :

Terrax ( Galactus' Herault )

Black Knight

Hawkeye

Firelord ( an other GH )

Forge , not sure but he uses his own creations only.