Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

[hancock.tom]

I've been thinking about what portions of HERO's rules can be be dropped without interfering with the core precepts of the system. Specifically, in a game with few powers, or where powers are significantly limited (10 AP max), and your roleplaying is going to center more on interaction and skill based challenges, it seems you can eliminate some of the crunch.

 

I am thinking of dropping the END rules (handling exhaustion by GM fiat), dropping the SPD chart (using a dex roll initiative variant), handling optional martial arts entirely through skill levels (only basic maneuvers), possibly combining ED and PD, and possibly finding a way to house rule normal and killing damage into one system that is just as deadly but easier and faster to resolve.

 

I know the rules discuss similar options, I was curious if anyone else has done anything like this to speed up combat and "de-crunch" the system for a game where combat is taking a back seat, and you plan to gradually introduce the players to the system.

[archermoo]

Re: Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

 

Start with the Basic Rulebook.

[gojira]

Re: Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

 

I was going to say the exact same thing as ArcherMoo. Start with the Basic Rulebook, just use those. If you want, you can drop END too. I don't think I'd drop the SPD chart, mostly because it's something the GM can manage personally. Knockback, bleeding rules, hit locations, all are good candidates for simplification by axing them out.

[Markdoc]

Re: Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

 

Here's some suggestions (basically my house rules).

1. Drop END use as a default. But keep the END statistic. I use it in my game for working out how long people can go without getting exhausted (in other words, I use LTE). To the players that's basically invisible, but gives me an an easy way to measure a character's small-e endurance. Players can also take "costs END" and END multiples to simulate powers that quickly exhaust the character. This significantly reduces in-game paperwork, whilst retaining maximum flexibility.

2. Drop the SPD chart and use either a d6 or a D12 to generate phases. That allows holding of actions and a deal of strategy but eliminates the "what phases do I act on?" and "What phase is it now?" overhead. It also makes combat slightly more chaotic. Some players love it, a few hate it

3. Drop martial arts? I like martial arts! I just jazz 'em up by building them as powers, instead of using the standard system. You could though simply allow characters to buy dice of HA as "brawling"

 

This one isn't part of my house rules, but I've considered:

4. A combined damage system? That's slightly more complex. I suggested just using regular dice for everything (a 1 does 0 BOD, a 6 does 2, everything else does 1, count total as your STUN) and breaking out damage seperately from all advantages.

That means a basic d6 cost 3 points.

Range costs +1/2

Adds to STR costs +1/4

Killing attacks are AVAD, does BOD (that's a +1.5: it ignores nonresistant DEF for both STUN and BOD - you can ignore the "special rules" for rDEF)

etc.

 

This changes game dynamics, somewhat: under this system, Killing attacks are good at doing BOD to soft targets, but almost always do less STUN. Regular attacks are better against targets with resistant DEF. It also opens up some interesting aspects - you can make attacks which are partly killing, for example.

 

5. Combining ED and PD is not something I'd do, but you could simply call them DEF and double their cost.

 

cheers, Mark

[Tasha]

Re: Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

 

The easiest way to speed up combat is to encourage the Players to plan their action before you call their name.

 

Having the speed/Dex chart pregenerated before the game starts helps. Losing spd really doesn't do much to speed up combat. How you call the speed chart DOES.

 

For Mooks(ie rank and file squishys), declare them one shot or 2 shot foes (This assume that the PCs roll average ).

 

I would recommend limiting levels before I would remove Martial Arts maneuvers. Fiddling with levels seems to take certain beginners forever, and they almost never get that you can take 2 levels and apply it toward Damage Class. So no more than 2 levels.

 

Also character sheets that remove stuff that doesn't matter (ie point costs). and have all damage prefigured out including Strength, and Martial arts. Make sure that combat skills are placed together on the character sheet.

 

Dropping END is fine and no one will miss it (unless someone wants to push their strength).

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

 

The easiest way to speed up combat is to encourage the Players to plan their action before you call their name.

 

Having the speed/Dex chart pregenerated before the game starts helps. Losing spd really doesn't do much to speed up combat. How you call the speed chart DOES.

 

For Mooks(ie rank and file squishys), declare them one shot or 2 shot foes (This assume that the PCs roll average ).

 

I would recommend limiting levels before I would remove Martial Arts maneuvers. Fiddling with levels seems to take certain beginners forever, and they almost never get that you can take 2 levels and apply it toward Damage Class. So no more than 2 levels.

 

Also character sheets that remove stuff that doesn't matter (ie point costs). and have all damage prefigured out including Strength, and Martial arts. Make sure that combat skills are placed together on the character sheet.

 

Dropping END is fine and no one will miss it (unless someone wants to push their strength).

 

Must spread rep.

 

That's basically what I would do.

 

I was thinking about this for a simplistic con game. I would change the character sheet to have no costs shown for anything, and no END stat. I would highlight the primary and secondary attacks by dice in a seperate bolded "combat" section along with the phases OCV/DCV/MCV/DEF/BOD/STUN/Charges.

 

I was also thinkng of spelling out ranges and variations for attacks, as I might want to remind folks about things like spreading and bouncing right in the listing for the attack.

 

If was going for a D&D 4th vibe, I might buy everything with charges behind the scenes and just list uses per encounter or day.

 

Also, to me no END means no pushing, only haymakering, so there is some penalty for the extra damage. I also wouldn't build anything that wasn't covered in the Basic Rulebook.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

 

I'm looking at running a modern gritty game (think The Departed) or a low post-apocalyptic game where combat will be avoided (think The Road) so combat is going to be rare, avoid at all costs type of thing, but I want to use HERO for the rich skill system and the flexibility of the power system.

 

Definitely going to drop END, and use charges where necessary.

 

I've been tinkering with figuring out how to do a "combined" damage system like MarkDoc suggested above, to eliminate the difference between Killing and normal attacks, eliminate the need for STUN (and REC since I'm only using END for long term), and eliminate the need to keep track of personal PD/ED... only body armor and the like will matter. I think it will get rid of a lot of book-keeping and make combat more gritty and deaadly.

 

I'm thinking you convert all weapons to killing attacks, but perhaps have some modifier for those that used to be normal damage weapons, like -2 for body damage, but +2 for the figure used with the stun multiplier. The stun multiplier only exists to determine if a knockout occurred, and that happens if the result of body x stun multiplier = X. Maybe double your body? Not sure yet. Has anyone else tried anything similar?

[Tasha]

Re: Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

 

if you limit body armor to 1-2 PD or less, you will have a game that is very dangerous. After people take that first BODY from a .38 1d6+1 RKA, they will avoid combat after that.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

 

As to the SPD question. When I ran a low level game I made all of my basic heroes SPD 2 with one of them SPD 3. A combat turn involved two actions for everyone. The character with SPD 3 got a bonus action after everyone else had used their first action. Not quite the SPD chart but close enough. I used DEX to adjudicate who ot to use their actions first.

 

You could do this with any base SPD. As long as most characters are the same SPD it does nto really matter - quick characters get a bonus action, slow character lose the first action of the round.

 

Doc

 

 

Doc

[hancock.tom]

Re: Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

 

The one thing I'm looking at is eliminating as much book-keeping as possible. Eliminating stun is going to be part of that, but there isn't a way to eliminate stun without somehow rolling normal damage attacks into KAs.

 

You still have stunning effect, the GM would either roll the stun modifier then compare the result to the player's CON. You could also houserule that instead of a knockout when stun is gone, a knockout occurs when body X stun mod > double CON.

 

Anyone tried anything like this?

[Tasha]

Re: Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

 

Eliminating STUN is killing one of the best parts of the Hero Combat system. That a PC can knock someone out without killing them.

 

With all of this houseruling, I have to wonder are you really going to get much speed up from all of the rules you are eliminating or are you going to make the combat rules even more confusing and illogical.

 

Since, I don't care for most houserules. I'll bow out before I start saying stupid embarassing stuff.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

 

The one thing I'm looking at is eliminating as much book-keeping as possible. Eliminating stun is going to be part of that' date=' but there isn't a way to eliminate stun without somehow rolling normal damage attacks into KAs. [/quote']

 

Ok. never tried to do anything like this but I am sure I have talked about it somewhere on these boards in the past...

 

I think there is some merit in rolling the damage systems together - either making KAs like normal ones or vice versa.

 

Given what else you intend (the KO roll) then I would go with making the mechanic for damage the current KA one. That way you can have one single damage mechanic - you provide people with something they can count (BODY) and something they can compare (STUN).

 

I think it could work fine (despite Tasha's concerns, which have most merit if the people you are playing with have played HERO before). You have a simple damage minus defence that counts towards death. On the side a high stun multiple has the opportunity to knock someone out.

 

it is the KO aspect you will have to think carefully about. How often do you want people to be KO'ed? What CON numbers are you going to give people?

 

Assuming a 2D6 attack you get an average 7 BODY. With that average (and a 1D3 multiplier - unless you are using hit locations) you get 7, 14 and 21 STUN from an average BODY roll. If CON exists but is not purchasable you get >1x, ~1.5x and 2x from that. With low rolls or high rolls you have more extreme results (2 BODY, you do not get 1x; 12 BODY you always get more than 1x).

 

However, you need to sit and think how you handle the purchasing of added CON. +5 CON makes it unlikely that you will get a 2x CON from a 2D6 attack...

 

 

Doc

[hancock.tom]

Re: Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

 

I think Tasha's point is a valid one. Of course, I don't know if some stripped down version of HERO stinks until I get closer to a final product I can look at. Only at that point, can I accurately evaluate it against rules-as-written HERO, or against other systems. The goal of course, is to make combat faster and decrease record keeping while maintaining as much of the flexibility of the system as possible.

 

Doc, you are going to the same place I was. Essentially, the house ruled system would say to the players "only roll for body" then leave the GM to either use a stun multiplier or hit location roll (or some third option) to determine if someone is KO'd stunned, whatever the effect may be. I'm thinking if the result of that stun roll is more than double your CON, you go unconcious, more than your CON, you are stunned, something like that. Very simple, and assuming an average 2d6 KA and an average 12 or so CON, and a 1d3 multiplier, would work out OK I think.

[Jomster]

Re: Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

 

Great thread. Howabout just having one CV, rather than an OCV and a DCV?

 

To be honest, I would just give it a go dropping END bookkeeping and see how it runs. There'll be a low variation in speed anyway and not too many dice to roll in any attack.

 

I like the idea of knowing all the speed and dex scores and having who goes when first clearly written out. That would make things feel much more fluid compared to going: Anyone got dex 15? 14? 13? Etc.

 

Please post on how the game itself goes.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

 

Elimination of END, STUN, REC, SPD, Non-killing attacks, and most sources of PD/ED (due to setting) is going to result in some very fast combat in low heroic level games without a lot of house rules heft. Knockout results will be handled by the GM, anything that needs it will be built with charges, and turn order will basically go in DEX order.

 

This would never EVER work in a champions game, or even a mid-level heroic game like dark champions or hero fantasy, but I think for 50/50 100 point characters in a post apocalyptic game, it will be just what the doctor ordered.

 

Once I type what I am doing into a document, I will try to remember to post it here.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

 

Elimination of END' date=' STUN, REC, SPD, Non-killing attacks, and most sources of PD/ED (due to setting) is going to result in some very fast combat in low heroic level games without a lot of house rules heft. Knockout results will be handled by the GM, anything that needs it will be built with charges, and turn order will basically go in DEX order. [/quote']

 

The one element I would never remove is the STUN damage system. I prefer having a structure where characters can have settings between "Still kicking at full power" and "Dead or dying". END and SPD? Sure.

 

Removing defenses also means characters are forced to OCV and DCV, since they can't be "slow but tough" to avoid damage.

[Greywind]

Re: Which tools from the toolkit can be dropped in a low powered game?

 

If all you really want is the skill-set, why not drop them into a system that in more amenable to your needs/wants?