Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

[Guest dan2448]

Spurred by the 50% off sale on all 5e products in the Hero Online store, I recently purchased the "Organization Bundle" (Viper, Demon, and Until) and just finished reading the Viper book, which I thought was great and which vastly exceeded my expectations.

 

As I read the book I was struck by how far the "Viper" organization described in that book had evolved from the "Viper" that I first encountered in the start-up adventure included in the 2e boxed set from the early 1980s. That Viper seemed to me to be a fairly transparent "homage" (to put it politely) to Marvel's "Hydra," which menaced "S.H.I.E.L.D." The Viper described in this 5e book struck me as having much more in common with "COBRA" from the 1980s G.I. Joe cartoon.

 

I wonder whether anyone else on these forums had the same reaction (or disagrees)? And, if you agree, might you have actually used this book (along with, say, Dark Champions) to play a "G.I. Joe" campaign?

 

I recognize that this 5e Viper organization book was published over 7 years ago, and so I apologize in advance that to most of you this is probably a very dated topic. But it's new to me.....

[Escafarc]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

You could argue that COBRA is a homage to HYDRA too.

[Guest dan2448]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

I entirely agree. Especially since the 1980s version of G.I. Joe (and therefore COBRA) was indeed created by Marvel Comics, after Hasbro went to them and asked that they update their (then dormant) G.I. Joe toy line.

 

But I always conceived of Hydra as, more or less, the Marvel super heroes version of James Bond's S.P.E.C.T.R.E., focused perpetually on elaborate schemes for world domination. I wasn't a slavishly devoted fan of the 1980s G.I. Joe cartoon. But my memory is that COBRA could be a little more larcenous, and not merely imperialistic. And COBRA had the array of supervillains, too, like Destro and Zartan. Whereas I remember Hydra's main combat asset being a bottomless well of 'normal' human Hydra agents (in identical uniforms), who just kept coming at Nick Fury as fast as he could dispatch the ones in front of him.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

I don't know if I'd call VIPER a Cobra homage anymore, because they generally lack the incompetence that Cobra was renowned for. VIPER used to be famous for that, but they definitely got their snakes in a row; anybody who underestimates VIPER now is seriously asking for it. I've considered disallowing taking VIPER as a Hunted ... it's one of those 'signing your own death warrant' things.

[Tom]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

I have to admit, one of the changes I like in 6e is the reduced number of Disads (Complications) in character development -- it makes taking things like 'Hunted: VIPER' a little less commonplace without cause. And being hunted by VIPER can be hazardous to your character's health if the GM plays them right...

[Escafarc]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

I entirely agree. Especially since the 1980s version of G.I. Joe (and therefore COBRA) was indeed created by Marvel Comics, after Hasbro went to them and asked that they update their (then dormant) G.I. Joe toy line.

 

But I always conceived of Hydra as, more or less, the Marvel super heroes version of James Bond's S.P.E.C.T.R.E., focused perpetually on elaborate schemes for world domination. I wasn't a slavishly devoted fan of the 1980s G.I. Joe cartoon. But my memory is that COBRA could be a little more larcenous, and not merely imperialistic. And COBRA had the array of supervillains, too, like Destro and Zartan. Whereas I remember Hydra's main combat asset being a bottomless well of 'normal' human Hydra agents (in identical uniforms), who just kept coming at Nick Fury as fast as he could dispatch the ones in front of him.

 

After a little googling found this:

 

"G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero" was brought about as a revival of the original 12 in (30 cm) G.I. Joe brand of the 1960s and '70s. After the 12" figure had been absent from toy shelves for a few years, G.I. Joe was re-introduced in a 3+3⁄4 in (9.53 cm) action figure format following the success of the Star Wars and Micronauts 3 3/4" scale toylines.

Prior to G.I. Joe's relaunch in 1982, Larry Hama was developing an idea for a new comic book called Fury Force, which he was hoping would be an ongoing series for Marvel Comics. The original premise had the son of S.H.I.E.L.D director Nick Fury assembling a team of elite commandos to battle neo-Nazi terrorists HYDRA. The idea was nixed, but Hama used the basic premise when he learned of Hasbro's plans to resurrect the G.I. Joe toyline.[4] Each G.I. Joe figure included a character biography, called a "file card". Hama was largely responsible for writing these file cards, especially for the first ten years. When developing many of the characters, he drew much from his own experiences in the US military.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

I have to admit' date=' one of the changes I like in 6e is the reduced number of Disads (Complications) in character development -- it makes taking things like 'Hunted: VIPER' a little less commonplace without cause. And being hunted by VIPER can be hazardous to your character's health if the GM plays them right...[/quote']

 

Yeah, if/when I run another Champions game, I'll probably be scaling back the number of required Disads. But the weird thing is, I've known people to take Hunted: VIPER without blinking at the thought, but Hunted: Dr. Destroyer? HELL no, even though they're both equally bad ideas.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

I have to admit' date=' one of the changes I like in 6e is the reduced number of Disads (Complications) in character development -- it makes taking things like 'Hunted: VIPER' a little less commonplace without cause. And being hunted by VIPER can be hazardous to your character's health if the GM plays them right...[/quote']

 

 

I still prefer the old old way of taking them until the character's properly done. Not before or after. It does require a certain level/type of player though who takes character conception first though and a GM also with the program.

 

The way you describe should ideally be the way it works WITHOUT artificial goals or limits.

 

OK, back to the regularly scheduled thread now.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

Hunted by Viper does not mean that you are their biggest priority at the moment. An organization that large is bound to have other things going on. Based on the number of points you get form the disad, you could be hunted by a particular faction with the organization or some other variation on the basic theme. Let's face it, your hero may not be that big a thorn in the organization's side yet. As he/she gains experience and smashes bigger and bigger plots, the organization becomes more and more willing to devote resources to dealing with you. Eventually, you get a senior member of Dragon Branch on your tail, until them it's there's a squad of agents with their boss.

 

"Isn't that that hero, the Wombat?"

"Yeah, he was mentioned in the briefing this morning."

"We're already on this bank heist though, and the Nest Leader told us not to deviate from the plan. We have to be here to cover the escape route. Besides, he seems to be passing us by."

"Well, call it in anyway, and if he sticks his nose into our business, we'll deal with it."

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

VIPER - 1st to 3rd Edition Champions - Cobra and SPECTRE Homage

???

 

VIPER: A Sourcebook for Champions - Hydra and Cobra Homage

http://www.amazon.com/Viper-Sourcebook-Champions-Crown-Enterprises/dp/1558061797

 

VIPER: Coils Of The Serpent - Hydra and Cobra Homage

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/63205-VIPER-Coils-Of-The-Serpent

 

VIPER - Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VIPER_%28Hero_System%29

 

Sharper Than A Serpent's Tooth - Serpent Society Homage

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/63174-Sharper-Than-A-Serpent-s-Tooth

 

 

Cheers

 

 

QM

[Sketchpad]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

I wonder whether anyone else on these forums had the same reaction (or disagrees)? And, if you agree, might you have actually used this book (along with, say, Dark Champions) to play a "G.I. Joe" campaign?

 

I've ran a game like that in the past ... but I was always partial to the 4th ed Viper, rather than the 5th ed one And I used Primus instead of U.N.T.I.L.

[assault]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

Pfft. I use my own version of VIPER, based on the description in the 1e rulebook.

 

No, seriously. "Dr Lirby Koo" (despite the name) and Green Dragon tie in nicely to VIPER. So do the rogue CIA elements mentioned in Crusader's background. Very late 70s/early 80s.

 

I've got my own version of UNTIL, too, although I'm considering replacing them with SAT.

 

This is all from my current project, a CU derived almost entirely from 1st edition sources, set in the very early 80s.

[RexMundi]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

I think everyone's got their own version, heh. That being said I really liked the 5th Ed Viper book. Was a solid product full of Mayhem.

 

~Rex

[Escafarc]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

Why limit yourself to just one VIPER group use them all:sneaky:

[RexMundi]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

Heh....I've got more then one Viper, much like, not all snakes are Vipers.

 

~Rex

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

And not all Vipers are Snakes!

 

 

UNTIL - I like UNTIL cause its 5th Edition and was long over due. (I dislike the helmets though). Their Superhuman Team is Odd and their Super Soldiers are Cliche, but overall a great Organization. UNITL's Agents are the Line Troops with the Superhumans called out when things look grim. UNTIL is not afraid to call for Superheroes.

 

PRIMUS - I use Shelly Crystal Mactyre's ebook for PRIMUS and really love the History/Meta Plots she introduced. I preferred her take in their Super Soldiers (Gold and Silver Avengers), their Super Team had lots of potential for GM Plot Hooks, and their Assault Agents were Augmented by a Lesser version of the Super Soldier Process. (Faint echos of "Strikeforce Morituri"). Equipment wise I liked the Vehicle (Robots/Landmates/Mecha/whatever). PRIMUS has difficulty interacting with Superhumans and some times calls them too late.

 

The events that lead to Millennium City are a good example. Besides I find Silver Avengers underpowered in 5th Edition.

 

 

Fallen Avenger

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/71869-Fallen-Avenger?highlight=PRIMUS

 

 

QM

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

5th Ed VIPER is pretty good. I don't remember 4th ed VIPER to well beyond the fact that it had tons of supervillains. 5th ed VIPER supers seem tougher though. Ripper is totally scary.

[Clonus]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

From now on I evaluate all snake-themed organizations on how good their pies are.

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GIJoeRenegades

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

I don't know if I'd call VIPER a Cobra homage anymore' date=' because they generally lack the incompetence that Cobra was renowned for. VIPER used to be famous for that, but they definitely got their snakes in a row; anybody who underestimates VIPER now is seriously asking for it. I've considered disallowing taking VIPER as a Hunted ... it's one of those 'signing your own death warrant' things.[/quote']

 

I would think that taking any Hunted at the, "More Powerful" level could cause similar problems. VIPER would work well at lower threat levels as well.

 

"Less Powerful" - One of the lieutenants of a large Nest or the leader of a small one.

 

"As Powerful" - The leader of a medium Nest or a lieutenant in a large one.

 

"More Powerful" - A large Nest.

 

Remember, VIPER only has a finite amount of resources that they can allocate to any particular problem. "Yes, I know Big Hero is causing you problems in Campaign City, but all our forces are needed elsewhere. You'll simply have to make do."

[Alverant]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

Depends on which version of Cobra. The one in the cartoon was pretty laughable, but it was a kids show. The comic was something like that until the cartoon ended then took a more serious turn around issue 110 where Joes started getting killed (yes, the permanent kind) starting with Doc. It's final issue with Marvel was a letter from Snake-Eyes to a teenager thinking about joining the military talking about his experiences in Vietnam. Then the continuity shifted to two other companies which continued to keep it serious. The second one kept focus on a core group of Joes and ended with a 12 part story line "World War III". Cobra Commander really came into his own in that series and in WW3 even slowly killed his own son with poison and hung him from the flagpole just to show what a ruthless SOB he was and demonstrate he was capable of anything. Nothing before or since has done that kind of justice to GIJoe.

[KawangaKid]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

The current G.I.Joe run is quite good. In it, both G.I.Joe and COBRA are unknown / secret organizations. Everyone in G.I.Joe is considered to have died in training or some accident after transferring to the responsibility of General Hawk (who, by the way, has a bad rep in the U.S. Military because of this), and COBRA itself is only spoken of in whispered communiques and hushed tones and never refers to itself that way -- especially since it has a variety of front organizations.

 

Larry Hama is back overseeing this series, which is a restart. They also CONTINUED the original G.I.Joe comics series from Marvel as the comics line G.I.Joe: A Real American Hero in a separate -- slightly less lethal but no less interesting -- universe.

[Tasha]

Re: Viper: From Hydra To Cobra?

 

I think everyone's got their own version, heh. That being said I really liked the 5th Ed Viper book. Was a solid product full of Mayhem.

 

~Rex

 

We played a short Viper campaign. The PCs were Viper trainees. Never went too far. It was disappointing, I was looking forward to when my character knifed her instructor in the gut.

 

Viper started out as a HYDRA homage, but like many things in the ChampionsU. It currently has a life of it's own.