CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

So. It's finally happening.

 

I've discussed this book on the forums so often over the years, I don't think I have much more to contribute. However, based on Steve's outline above, there are a couple of things I'd like to mention.

 

The CU has a number of mystic artifacts of tremendous power, a few of them even statted. I'd love to see a few examples of "cosmic" artifacts written up here, products of awesomely-advanced technology or alien entities of godlike power. Basically your Stargate/Ultimate Nullifier/M'kraan Crystal-type doodads.

 

It would be nice to see a few "super"-class individuals from all the major races/empires of the Milky Way Galaxy. I'm pretty sure such will be included in the chapters on the Malvans, Gadroon, Hzeel, and Qularr. However, given that the apparent emphasis of Champions Beyond will be on aliens who interact directly with Earth in the early twenty-first century (understandably), I'm not too hopeful for superpowered Xenovores, Dorvalans, Velarians, or the like.

 

In any case, I'll be waiting for this book to go on sale like a ten-year-old on Christmas Eve.

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

It would be nice to see a few "super"-class individuals from all the major races/empires of the Milky Way Galaxy. I'm pretty sure such will be included in the chapters on the Malvans, Gadroon, Hzeel, and Qularr. However, given that the apparent emphasis of Champions Beyond will be on aliens who interact directly with Earth in the early twenty-first century (understandably), I'm not too hopeful for superpowered Xenovores, Dorvalans, Velarians, or the like.

 

I sympathize with the desire, but I'm afraid it's simply not feasible. I just got done assembling a list of alien races we've mentioned in various places, and that alone took me a couple of hours. It's way, way way too many to try to present a superpowered individual from every species (even if every species could manifest superpowers, which in fact they can't). CB is already going to be ridiculously large; I can't add dozens more supers.

 

However, if CB were to sell really really really well, I could definitely see a follow-up companion volume full of heroes and villains from all around the Milky Way.

[novi]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

What about non-mystical alternate dimensions? Are they going to be receiving a treatment somewhere else? Or would this be the best place to squeeze them in?

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'd like to see a megavillain of some sort--either of the "Thanos/Darkseid/Mongol planet-conquering nihilist" variety

 

I think Valak the World-Ravager fits the bill of Mongol analog pretty well. It might be neat to see a write-up of his undiminished state, from when he was taking over one planet after another before the Star*Guard stepped in.

[Epiphanis]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

More information on the Galaxars and Nebula & Vibron's home civilization.

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I think Valak the World-Ravager fits the bill of Mongol analog pretty well. It might be neat to see a write-up of his undiminished state, from when he was taking over one planet after another before the Star*Guard stepped in.

 

I definitely agree with the first statement. I have no particular desire to do a beefed-up writeup of him though; he's tough enough as it is for now!

 

Though perhaps "The Return Of Valak!" with full-bore character sheet would make for a great HPA one day. Hmmmmmm....

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

What about non-mystical alternate dimensions? Are they going to be receiving a treatment somewhere else? Or would this be the best place to squeeze them in?

 

Those will be covered in The Book Of The Empress next year. I have enough to deal with in this book just handling one galaxy!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I sympathize with the desire' date=' but I'm afraid it's simply not feasible. I just got done assembling a list of alien races we've mentioned in various places, and that alone took me a couple of hours. It's way, way [i']way[/i] too many to try to present a superpowered individual from every species (even if every species could manifest superpowers, which in fact they can't). CB is already going to be ridiculously large; I can't add dozens more supers.

 

Pretty much the way I figured it. (Just out of curiosity, did you remember the F'woosh?)

 

However' date=' if CB were to sell really really really well, I could definitely see a follow-up companion volume full of heroes and villains from all around the Milky Way. [/quote']

 

Rather like a galactic version of Champions Worldwide. Treat the major regions/empires like CW did the regions of Earth, and I for one would certainly shell out for it.

 

I definitely agree with the first statement. I have no particular desire to do a beefed-up writeup of him [Valak] though; he's tough enough as it is for now!

 

Though perhaps "The Return Of Valak!" with full-bore character sheet would make for a great HPA one day. Hmmmmmm....

 

I've already thought of a few IMHO logical in-continuity means for Valak to restore his power, that might form the basis for an adventure. Ping me if you're ever interested.

[Certified]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One of the things I think would be interesting is if there were space for a cross pollinated mythology. That is to say two or more races sharing a similar legend but with their own views on it. Not that I would want something like that spelled out but enough that if one looked closely they might see the similarities and say hay wait a tick.

[Susano]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Steve needs to establish if the first message Earth received from outer space really was "send more Chuck Berry."

[GestaltBennie]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Okay. A preliminary list of questions.

 

EARTH SPACE TECH

1. How far has manned spaceflight proceeded? Have we landed on Mars?

2. How extensive has exploration by unmanned spacecraft? Have we gotten any unmanned bases set up on other moons, asteroids, plutoids or planets? Have we gotten to any other solar systems?

3. How extensive is space industry? Is there private industry in orbit yet? Have we gotten any solar power collection stations in orbit? Are we mining the moon or asteroids? What companies are the major players? Is Franklin Stone trying to become king of earth's orbit? If so, what's stopping him?

4. How close are we to building a beanstalk to orbit? Or launch cannons that shoot payloiads from earth surface to orbit?

5. What does a current earth rocket or spacecraft look like? How many space stations/labs are there in orbit?

6. What work is there for a superhuman in space development? Are there any superhumans closely associated with the space program? Any super space hermits/mountain men who took off for a lifw away from earth?

 

ALIEN PHYSIOLOGY

1. Are the species compatible with humans for the purposes of producing offspring? Naturally? No, but with minor gene splicing? No, but with major gene splicing? Never under any circumstances?

2. How compatible are the species with human medicine? What penalties to skills would a human doctor need to treat them? What are the side effects of a failed roll?

3. Physiology. If they have blood, what color is it? Do they have special diseases they're vulnerable to?

 

ALIEN CULTURE

1. How advanced are they in robotics/cybernetic inteegration? Computers? Biotech/nanotechnology?

2. What are their plans regarding eatth?

3. What aspect of their culture would humans probably consider the weirdest or most disturbing? What aspects of our culture do they consider weirdest and/or most disturbing?

4. What reasons would a member of that culture have for becoming a superhero on earth? A supervillain?

5. What rivals do they have on the galactic scene? Allies? Enemies?

6. How would you conduct trade with this species? What items or services do we have that they would consider valuable?

7. What are considered virtues in the culture? Vices? What's the profile of an ideal person in their culture? Who are their renegades? What are the crimes of their culture? Do they have slavery? Piracy?

8. How much do they know about magic? Extra-dimensions?

9. What does a typical human know about them? What is their reputation in the superhuman community? If they're unknown (I'm looking at you, Hzeel) why hasn't ironclad spilled the beans about them?

 

GENERAL

1. What are good areasof the known galaxy for a GM or player to come up with homebrew cultures? What are questions that anyone creating a homebrew should be able to answer to integrate it into other cultures of Champions Beyond?

 

Looking foeward to this a lot. Kann Karoth needs more background on the Star*Guard!

[Peregrine]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Any chance of reconciling "supertechnology" with "advanced non-super" technology; i.e. "tech that quits when magic goes away" vs. "tech that doesn't"? Or is that taboo?

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Reconciling the existence of science, with all that implies, with that of magic would be a logical challenge in and of itself,one which superhero stories tend to handwave away.

[Pizza Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would like to see something unique to earth that is attractive to aliens. A reason for them to come here.

 

Tossing out an idea: Coffee. Its a plant that only grows well on earth. to some aliens, coffee beans are candy. To others a drug. To one race it can be refined into a potent bio weapon, deadly to their enemies but harmless to them. For yet another race its just a fine, but exotic drink.

 

It every case its rarity makes coffee very expensive. Aliens conduct an illicit trade with coffee growers, or their national leaders, trading manufactured gems (indistinguishable from the real thing with mere human technology), for unprocessed coffee beans.

 

This brings intergalactic cops, spys, criminal organizations, and adventurers to earth, mixing together for one thing: coffee.

 

This is just an example, but it gives all sorts of excuses for alien encounters and combat.

 

The heroes could be tasked with rescuing a 10 foot tall talking cockroach hiding in the back room of a restaurant. He's just a lost crew member and wants to get back to his ship. The health inspector may need to be mind controlled over this little incident. Of course the alien criminal organization, seizing an opportunity, unleashes a monstrous alien "Hit Man" to finish this rival off. The space smugglers will be glad to get their navigator back, and the contact may prove to be an interesting way to introduce the heroes to space.

[Susano]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I think (think, mind you) the CU explanation is that Earth is a dimensional nexus. In Marvel and DC Earth is simply loaded with superhumans.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Any chance of reconciling "supertechnology" with "advanced non-super" technology; i.e. "tech that quits when magic goes away" vs. "tech that doesn't"? Or is that taboo?

 

IMO this point should be addressed, if only in abbreviated fashion. It's often debated on the forums, and many people seem to have a lot of trouble with it. It also has considerable relevance to stories involving humans gaining access to "super-class" tech possessed by more advanced species, and time-traveling supers and aliens.

[Balabanto]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Ooohhh... let me second these ideas!

 

Doesn't matter. Nebula will still be totally broken because the character forces people to pay points for spot defenses like Extra Dimensional Movement, only to prevent from being extradimensionally moved, instead of working on their concepts. The only purpose of this character, as near as I can figure, is to annoy players by removing their character from the game as a cheap shot. I would rather eat glass than use Nebula if I used the CU. This is ridiculously unfair, especially if some martial artist or character that can't breathe in space or operate dimensional equipment gets a good roll and tags Nebula hard. Bam. Nebula sends them to Duress.

 

GM: So, Bob, who are you playing this week?

 

Bob: I'm playing Dimension Man Alpha, since Nebula sent my last eight characters to Duress. Now you can't move me there. Nyah! Nyah! (BLEEP) You!

 

GM: Feeling a little angry about those die rolls, Bob?

 

Bob: Not at all.

 

There's very little I would refuse to play in a game with. But I would refuse to play in a game where the GM used Nebula.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Doesn't matter. Nebula will still be totally broken because the character forces people to pay points for spot defenses like Extra Dimensional Movement, only to prevent from being extradimensionally moved, instead of working on their concepts. The only purpose of this character, as near as I can figure, is to annoy players by removing their character from the game as a cheap shot. I would rather eat glass than use Nebula if I used the CU. This is ridiculously unfair, especially if some martial artist or character that can't breathe in space or operate dimensional equipment gets a good roll and tags Nebula hard. Bam. Nebula sends them to Duress.

 

GM: So, Bob, who are you playing this week?

 

Bob: I'm playing Dimension Man Alpha, since Nebula sent my last eight characters to Duress. Now you can't move me there. Nyah! Nyah! (BLEEP) You!

 

GM: Feeling a little angry about those die rolls, Bob?

 

Bob: Not at all.

 

There's very little I would refuse to play in a game with. But I would refuse to play in a game where the GM used Nebula.

 

I don't know if I can agree with you here. It's not the fact that the character is being used, but how he is being used that would bother me. If there was some way to get out, or it was not going to be a blatant Total Party Kill, I could play along. It might be fun.

 

Sure, the GM could have Nebula banish your character to Duress, but that shouldn't be the end of the character unless the player and the GM want it to be.

 

The next step would be having an adventure set in Duress where your character tries to survive with all the maniacs. "I'm not locked in here with you. You're locked in here with me." Supes did that all the time with the Phantom Zone.

 

While you are doing that, the other players could be trying to convince Nebula to let you out, or they could join you one by one, if that's that ways more fun. What if there is a time differential in Duress, and they come in like a day or so later even though it's just a turn in the real world. Star Trek did this like three or four times to pretty good results. Voyager "Wink of an Eye" was my favorite.

 

Maybe there is a McGuffin that will release you. I smell a quest. You could play another character for a couple of games while the quest is going on, and pick up your regular character again when he/she is sprung.

 

The Chinese word for GM is a combination of the characters for danger and opportunity.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

isnt' nebula the alien law officer with NO JURISDICTION on earth/ then all banishments would be kidnapping/illegal detention

[SAW2]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

How about some info on The Reapers. The giant-machine lifeforms that sit just outside our galaxy and destroy all life every 50,000 years...

 

No, wait. That's the other game I'm obsessed with. Sorry. My bad.

 

I play a Star*Guard character and you're covering that, so I'm happy. I had to come up with my own structure for S*G but I've never been thrilled or specific with what I came up with. It'll most likely be combination of the two.

 

SAW

[quozaxx]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would like to know the "official" Champion's Universe take on Roswell (the "UFO incident") , and the alien race connected with that incident.

 

Are they part of the Champion's Universe? Are they a race already mentioned?

[Susano]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

isnt' nebula the alien law officer with NO JURISDICTION on earth/ then all banishments would be kidnapping/illegal detention

 

I'm pretty sure she doesn't care.

[Susano]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Doesn't matter. Nebula will still be totally broken because the character forces people to pay points for spot defenses like Extra Dimensional Movement, only to prevent from being extradimensionally moved, instead of working on their concepts. The only purpose of this character, as near as I can figure, is to annoy players by removing their character from the game as a cheap shot. I would rather eat glass than use Nebula if I used the CU. This is ridiculously unfair, especially if some martial artist or character that can't breathe in space or operate dimensional equipment gets a good roll and tags Nebula hard. Bam. Nebula sends them to Duress.

 

GM: So, Bob, who are you playing this week?

 

Bob: I'm playing Dimension Man Alpha, since Nebula sent my last eight characters to Duress. Now you can't move me there. Nyah! Nyah! (BLEEP) You!

 

GM: Feeling a little angry about those die rolls, Bob?

 

Bob: Not at all.

 

There's very little I would refuse to play in a game with. But I would refuse to play in a game where the GM used Nebula.

 

So, Mike, how do you really feel about Nebula? Don't hold back now.

 

Look, I'm not a fan of Nebula either, as I'm not a fan of her EDM weapon sending people to a supposedly unescapable prison. However, Laspedgamer brings up some excellent ideas on how to use Duress, all of which are perfect in-genre solutions. There's also the fact that you don't have to use her EDM weapon as is... too many people seem to think what Steve's done is written in stone and can't be changed. Don't like her gun? Revise it so it's easier to defend against! Or take it away and make her an alien cop, stranded on Earth, trying to enforce laws that don't apply.

 

I'd also point out that the post I was responding too had a number of other good ideas I liked, aside from Nebula, and since Duress exists, it would be a good idea for Steve to flesh it out a little, so that GMs would now how to use it, and keep it (and Nebula) from being a TPK plot-device.

[Susano]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would like to know the "official" Champion's Universe take on Roswell (the "UFO incident") , and the alien race connected with that incident.

 

Are they part of the Champion's Universe? Are they a race already mentioned?

 

And do the "grays" exist in the CU? Who are they? And was the CIA allowing aliens to kidnap people and mutiliate cattle in the 60s and 70s in exchange for advanced technology? And what about the mysterious Men In Black (MIBs)? More evidence of alien infiltration?

[Balabanto]

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I don't know if I can agree with you here. It's not the fact that the character is being used, but how he is being used that would bother me. If there was no way to get out, or it was a blatant Total Party Kill, I could paly along. It might be fun.

 

Sure, the GM could have Nebula banish your character to Duress, but that shoulldn't be the end of the character unless the player and the GM want it to be.

 

The next step would be having an adventure set in Duress where your character tries to survive with all the maniacs. "I'm not locked in here with you. You're locked in here with me." Supes did that all the time with the Phantom Zone.

 

While you are doing that, the other players could be trying to convince Nebula to let you out, or they could join you one by one, if that's that way's more fun. What if there is a time differaential in Duress, and they come in like a day or so later even though it's just a turn in the real world. Star Trek did this like three or four times to pretty good results. Voyager "Wink of an Eye" was my favorite.

 

Maybe there is a McGuffin that will relese you. I smell a quest. You could play another character for a couple of games while the quest is going on, and pick up your regular character again when he/she is sprung.

 

The Chinese word for GM is a combination of the characters for danger and opportunity.

 

The problem is that the character is written in such a way that ICly, this is impossible. Nebula is a space cop with alien morals and no compassion. Let me explain how this translates in an environment where everything is kept IC and the gamemaster doesn't pull punches. If I were running this character, I would have to play the ball where it lies, because, comic book game or no, the character is going to take out the greatest threats first. Usually, when dealing with unknowns, that means "The person who deals the most damage."

 

Let's look at your adventure setup for Duress. What the HECK are the other players doing while your character runs around Duress? Anything that the GM does to let the character out of Duress is going to look contrived and a freebie thrown at the player unless he paid for powers and abilities to get him out prior to doing so. Spending XP to get out of duress during the adventure IS cheating. Period. You shouldn't be allowed to spend XP on the spot during an adventure to fix a problem that you didn't forsee.

 

While you are doing that, the other players are sidekicks, period. Let me tell you how this runs with 99 percent of PC groups.

 

Player A: Oh, my god! What happened? She shot him! He's GONE. Completely GONE.

 

Player B: She killed him?

 

Nebula: I merely sent him to an extradimensional prison in another galaxy for his crimes. You are next, doer of evilness.

 

Unless the players all decide that they want to be shot by Nebula, the PC's are going to beat the living daylights of Nebula, or Nebula is going to find herself hard pressed and run away. And Nebula is VERY good at running away. No group of superheroes worthy of the name is going to stop and negotiate with someone who just sent their ally to another dimension! They'll trash her or bring her to justice for kidnapping, assault, reckless endangerment, and a host of other criminal offenses. Plus, remember, Nebula is "One Shot, One Kill." Every hit sends a character to Duress.

 

Remember that most games are run by this principle. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you, as GM, use tons of one shot, one kill villains, then the players will put stuff like this on their sheets too, and then your game is pretty much ruined, because you will have no recourse but to build better one-shot, one kill characters, and that's how they will react; with wars of escalation. I've seen this before in other games hundreds of times. Plus, as GM, you don't have a defense here. Using a crappy deus-ex-machina hole in the rules tactic to send characters to an extradimensional prison is a jerky move. I've seen stuff like this destroy games and create angry players too many times to ever use this.

 

The time differential only works in a game where you don't keep careful track of time. In the game I run, SIDs are just as important as hero IDs. "You aged me four weeks in the span of two hours?" is just as bad as "Only one minute passed, but six weeks passed in the real world?"..."Oh, my god, I got fired!" "Oh, my god, I failed algebra." "Oh, my god, my girlfriend is going to bed with some other guy. I got dumped in absentia."

 

It only takes one or two adventures like this to turn people into power gamers with no regard for anything the GM does. Trust me. I've lived through it enough times to know. You have to respect the rules as GM. But you have to respect your players more. This is a low-down, dirty tactic that does nothing but abuse the fact that no one would ever buy Extra-Dimensional Movement, only to protect against Extra Dimensional Movement power. Power Defense is not an absolute shield here. It depends on the SFX of the Power Defense. The stupid thing is, the best defense against this is Density Increase or Growth. If Nebula doesn't have the mass multiples, she can't transport you. While it makes a ton of sense, it also leads to STR inflation. This kills concept-driven games, too.

 

The Maguffin that can release you idea in a situation like this is CHEATING, unless it comes with a consequence. The most logical thing would be a dimensional movement machine. However, if the PC can't force someone to operate it for him, he's pretty much doomed. Do you have any idea what the penalties for Systems Operation are for figuring out an unfamiliar alien machine with a tech level above yours? Rules as written, this is like -12. It's like 7 tech levels and -5 for unfamiliar. Most PC's can't even ROLL this number. When was the last time you saw a PC spend 15 points on his Systems Operation skill? The average skill roll is around 13 to 14-. If you give the hero an ally that he has to work with who's distasteful, like a galactic criminal or something like that, then there's a consequence, because he can't get out without releasing another bad guy.

 

The problem is that if you do this, Nebula comes after him, and it all begins again. This is dirty pool, too.

 

The American words for GM are Tough, but Fair. This is unfair, period. You automatically create a situation where one PC is the "Star" for weeks on end, or some people might as well not show up to the session, start another game, or spend three hours outside smoking.

 

I know I would really hate to be chewing my cud for four hours while a GM dealt with this. And I CERTAINLY wouldn't appreciate the extra four hours of time that player got if it got dealt with offscreen. The three worst things about the CU are 1) Power Escalation 2) Everything comes from magic and 3) Nebula.

 

You play games with your friends. Don't treat them like acquaintances.