Instagib Move Throughs?

[Tornado]

Okay, so I'm working through a character who can fly really, really fast, and I've suddenly noticed that Move Throughs with a rapid speed do disgustingly high damage. For example, a character with 32m x32 NCM Flight, going at their max speed of 1024m per Phase, dishes out 171d6 damage in a Move Through, half of which rebounds on them.

 

As far as I can tell, reading the rules, NCM apparently deals appropriate v/6 damage, as it states "[the character] may perform [Move Throughs] at Noncombat Movement speeds with other forms of movement (though this means the character has a base OCV of 0; see 6E2 24)".

 

171d6 damage seems way, way too much, even at 0 OCV. What if my character hits a wall or something? They just die? There is no reasonable way to defend from an attack that does that much damage, except desolidification, and that's hardly appropriate. Am I reading this wrong?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

Characters with high non-combat movement are encouraged to buy senses and/or other abilities that allow them to avoid hitting objects in their path. In the case of hitting objects unintentionally, arguably the most damage that can be taken by the character from the impact is the total DEF+BODY of that object in # of d6.

[Tornado]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

Characters with high non-combat movement are encouraged to buy senses and/or other abilities that allow them to avoid hitting objects in their path. In the case of hitting objects unintentionally' date=' arguably the most damage that can be taken by the character from the impact is the total DEF+BODY of that object in # of d6.[/quote']So what happens if I go max NCM and Move Through a guy? Suicide bomb?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

So what happens if I go max NCM and Move Through a guy? Suicide bomb?

Pretty much, unless your GM decides to handle it some other way under the "common and dramatic sense" clause...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

Try to keep in mind the NON part of non combat movement. It is primarily a plot device power like X-Ray vision.

 

Regardless, it's very unlikely that a character moving at non-combat speeds (relative to a target) could hit a man-sized target since the character's OCV can never be a positive value (without GM permission). If both the character and the intended target are moving at NCM speeds then only the relative difference in velocity is used to determine bonus damage.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

I didn't check your math specifically, but yes high movement move thrus are brutal. NCM scenarios are not very realistic, and personally I don't allow NCM move thrus even at 0 OCV. In the past I've also capped the damage at terminal velocity damage, the same as for a fall.

[Escafarc]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

If both the character and the intended target are moving at NCM speeds then only the relative difference in velocity is used to determine bonus damage.

 

Are you talking about two characters flying straight into each other. If so you must of missed that episode of Mythbusters.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

Are you talking about two characters flying straight into each other. If so you must of missed that episode of Mythbusters.

What, Mythbusters refuted the basic laws of physics? Wow, they HAVE been busy.

 

The energy of impact DOES depend on relative velocity (difference in a vector sense, in fact). And if you think about it, our everyday experiences and common sense come into play as well. If I'm driving at 60mph and you're driving at 60.02mph when you tap my bumper from behind, we're not going to wind up pancakes unless the contact makes us lose control and smash into something else. If, on the other hand, I'm driving at 60mph and you hit me while driving at 60.02mph heading in exactly the opposite direction, we'll be lucky if they can pull us apart again to bury us separately.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

If you REALLY want to discourage this type of Move Through, not only put the attacker at 0 OCV, but also assign the target velocity-based DCV (6E2 p. 24) based on the relative velocity. Hitting 11+ DCV (depending on your Speed) with your 0 OCV (as in the OP's example) means you're going to need to roll a natural 3. Go for it!

[Escafarc]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

What, Mythbusters refuted the basic laws of physics? Wow, they HAVE been busy.

 

The energy of impact DOES depend on relative velocity (difference in a vector sense, in fact). And if you think about it, our everyday experiences and common sense come into play as well. If I'm driving at 60mph and you're driving at 60.02mph when you tap my bumper from behind, we're not going to wind up pancakes unless the contact makes us lose control and smash into something else. If, on the other hand, I'm driving at 60mph and you hit me while driving at 60.02mph heading in exactly the opposite direction, we'll be lucky if they can pull us apart again to bury us separately.

 

They showed that two cars in a head on collision at 60 mph each is not he same as hitting a wall at 120 mph but the same as hitting a wall at 60 mph.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

They showed that two cars in a head on collision at 60 mph each is not he same as hitting a wall at 120 mph but the same as hitting a wall at 60 mph.

Ahhhh. But it's NOT the same as hitting a stationary CAR at 60mph. The difference between hitting a wall and hitting a car is very significant, as the wall will always either break or have zero velocity after the collision. Mythbusters sometimes DOES miss the mark quite a bit.

[Escafarc]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

Ahhhh. But it's NOT the same as hitting a stationary CAR at 60mph. The difference between hitting a wall and hitting a car is very significant' date=' as the wall will always either break or have zero velocity after the collision. Mythbusters sometimes DOES miss the mark quite a bit.[/quote']

 

Yes but as far Move Throughs are concerned two characters doing a move through on each other at the same speed would not increase the damage.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

Yes but as far Move Throughs are concerned two characters doing a move through on each other at the same speed would not increase the damage.

Sure they would. Or, rather, it might put the situation into better light given the context of our discussion so far to say that hitting a stationary character would DECREASE the damage done because quite a bit of the energy of impact would go into momentum imparted to you and the target. Hero models this in part by having you take only half damage if the target suffers Knockback, though it doesn't go the full distance and change the damage suffered by the TARGET too, unless they perform a Roll With the Punch maneuver I suppose (which is relatively easy against an attacker with 0 OCV by the way).

 

Let's put it in a slightly different perspective.

1. You hit a wall going 60mph, and it is a completely plastic collision (you don't bounce, so all the energy goes into heat and deformation). If the wall is solid enough not to just smash to pieces, where is most of that energy going to go? Into damaging your vehicle, or damaging the wall? I think you'll see that just about all the former kinetic energy of the vehicle goes into its own destruction.
   
2. Now you hit a stationary car at 60mph and SOMEHOW the result is that both cars are stationary at the end (not going to happen, but just hypothetically). Where is the energy of collision going to go? Solely into deforming your car, or into deforming both cars? I think you'll see that your car takes less damage in this scenario (from about half the energy). In reality it would be even less damage because there's no WAY both cars are going to be stationary at the end.
   
3. Now both cars suffer a head-on when each is traveling at 60mph. At the end both cars are stationary (much more realistic for the head-on with equal speeds). Twice as much energy goes into the collision. Like the second scenario, probably about half the energy is going to go into deforming each car.

 

In scenario #2, half a single car's energy (or less) went into damaging each car. In scenario #3, half of BOTH cars' energy goes into damaging each car (0.5*2=1, which is about the same amount of energy that damaged the car in the first scenario of car vs. wall). THAT'S the significance of relative velocity. Comparing scenario #1 to scenario #3 and saying relative velocity doesn't matter is a fallacy of logic because wall vs. car and car vs. car are not very comparable collisions.

 

The relative velocity rules are actually pretty realistic. What is NOT extremely realistic is the treatment of elastic vs. plastic collisions, relative mass, and hardness (which in Hero terms I guess would be PD). [EDIT: Oh, and as alluded to by the OP, if each +1 Body damage is supposed to "double the damage/energy/whatever", it should really be more like +2 DC for each doubling of relative velocity rather than a linear v/6 relationship.] But the use of Knockback and such closes part of the distance, and the actual attack performed by the attacker could probably suspend our disbelief enough to close most of the rest of the distance. It's not a very bad simulation in all. Really. Take it from a physicist.

[Escafarc]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

Well we're just going to have to disagree on this.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

I was talking about 2 targets moving at non-com speeds in the same direction (not opposite one another). If the latter then it is highly unlikely one could hit the other unless both are trying to do at the same time.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

Unlike most other RPG systems, HERO has no internal balancing/limiting mechanism. All crazy stuff like that basically gets put down in one of two ways:

GM to Player: "No, sorry, that's just crazy. Maybe if you're in some desperate, win or the world ends battle I'll let you do it as a heroic sacrifice, but otherwise, no."

GM to Himself: "Well, it's basically just a disposable NPC, so it doesn't matter if he uses this power and dies, but I shouldn't be a d**k to my players like that."

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

I'm not up to date on 6th edition, and I apologize if someone covered this, but doesn't move through have a OCV penalty of like

-1 per 5" of velocity? So ye olde superhero attacking with a ncm move of 1000" per phase would have a zero OCV, and a minus (math in head) two hundred to hit? With a OCV of -200, you'd have a good chance of missing EARTH on a move through.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

I'm not up to date on 6th edition, and I apologize if someone covered this, but doesn't move through have a OCV penalty of like

-1 per 5" of velocity? So ye olde superhero attacking with a ncm move of 1000" per phase would have a zero OCV, and a minus (math in head) two hundred to hit? With a OCV of -200, you'd have a good chance of missing EARTH on a move through.

 

When a 3 happens, a 3 happens.

 

This is one reason I have frequently considered not using the 3 and 18 rule.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

I'm rather fond of NCM move-thru damage. It yields realistic results when some silly goober mistakes one of my hard SF Star Hero games for a saturday morning cartoon and yells "Ramming speed!!!" in space combat. "Realistic" in this case meaning both spacecraft vaporized, with no survivors.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

Per real world physics, the amount of damage taken is based on the change in velocity. Someone hitting the ground goes from however fast they were going to zero; that's why the two cars at 60 equals the brick wall at 60. It's also why, when big rig hits VW bug, the bug becomes a pancake and the rig is hardly dented.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

I'm rather fond of NCM move-thru damage. It yields realistic results when some silly goober mistakes one of my hard SF Star Hero games for a saturday morning cartoon and yells "Ramming speed!!!" in space combat. "Realistic" in this case meaning both spacecraft vaporized' date=' with no survivors.[/quote']

 

And you wouldn't tell him this important fact, that his character would most definitely know, because ... ?

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

And you wouldn't tell him this important fact' date=' that his character would most definitely know, because ... ?[/quote']

 

Did I say I wouldn't tell them first? If so, please quote the post where I did so.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

I'd suggest hunting down the optional velocity rules from 5th edition--a move through, IIRC, does mass/STR + "velocity factor"(x2) in damage classes. Still a lot of damage, but quite a bit less than the planet-destroying number mentioned in the OP.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

I'd suggest hunting down the optional velocity rules from 5th edition--a move through' date=' IIRC, does mass/STR + "velocity factor"(x2) in damage classes. Still a lot of damage, but quite a bit less than the planet-destroying number mentioned in the OP.[/quote']

Ah, yes. Velocity Factor was logarithmic, wasn't it? How quickly we (I?) forget....

[lemming]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

Ah' date=' yes. Velocity Factor was logarithmic, wasn't it? How quickly we (I?) forget.... [/quote']

 

Not really. (STR/5 + V/3)d6 for move-thru and (STR/2 + V/5)d6 for move-by. Same as it always has been. Same velocity modifiers as well for OCV. I think the only change to move-by and move-thrus was the damage taken components.