THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

[mattingly]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Scrolls, scribery, and magic involving the written word.

[The Main Man]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I think the book of generic spells essentially sets its own magic system. If most/all spells have Gestures,Incantations and consume a Focus, then the magic system presupposes verbal, somatic and material components, for example. Most or all of the spells will then require some adjustment if they are to be used in a game where spells are not permitted to have, say, Incantations or Gestures, but are required to have Concentration and Extra Time. There's no real way around that, short of presenting the spells with only their base mechanics and limitations unique to the specific spell, with the various limitations applied to "all spells" or "most spells" in that particular setting added on by the players.

 

What I would like to NOT see is a book of spells where virtually all have the same "options", such as "Silent " with the entire spell written up again without Incantations, "Still " with the entire spell written up again without Incantations, and "Silent Still " with yet another repeat of the whole spell, this time with neither Gestures nor Incantations. Just toss a comment at the start of the section, or the start of the book, on removing common limitations to create a slight variance on any or all of the spells. I'd much rather have more unusual spells, and customize them for the general limitations I want them to have, than have half the book be reprints of the entire build, with a limitation or two added, removed or altered slightly.

 

That could save a lot of space - list common spell limitations within HSG, present the general SFX options that remove them from spells, and then list those options with just the name and the costs. Only unique options are put into more detail.

[Steve Long]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Wikipedia has a comprehensive list of methods of divination. Writing them all up would be silly, but you could fill a sidebar (or several) with them.

 

Like, for example, the list on TUS/HSS 357-59? And that's not even a sidebar, that's over two printed pages of methods of divination described. I try to be reasonably thorough.

 

I don't think I'll copy that into the HSG, but it is available in the HERO System library for those who are interested in the subject.

[Steve Long]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'd like to see the elemental categories expanded to include Eastern elements - Metal, Wood, Void, and Spirit.

 

Some of those are subcategories of existing categories -- for example, Metal (and Crystal and Sand, for that matter) are both covered under Earth. Wood-related spells are under Druidry. To the extent others get any coverage it'll be under "Miscellaneous."

[Steve Long]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Wasn't there a category of magic that consists of "stealing" power from the gods -- called Theurgy, or something like that? I'd rather like to see that. (Or would that be a subcategory of Divine Magic?)

 

I believe you're thinking of Theurgy from pages 231-40 of The Turakian Age. That's a possibility, but tricky (and not much fun) to pull off without a specific pantheon to refer to. But it's worth considering, particularly if I expand it to include "celestial magics" based on stars and such.

 

Theurgy in this case has no relation to Hermetic Theurgy, as LL observes. Hermetic Theurgy is a magic system rather than just spells; you could easily cobble it together by selecting spells from Conjuration, the Elemental categories, and other parts of HSG.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

In the past, the alternate builds have been along the lines of "build it the same way, except for X," followed by the new Active Point (if needed) and Real Point values.

 

I don't have the new FH book, but if different Options can be presented like this that presents most or all spells in alternate forms to fit alternate magic systems, that would be a boon -- though again this may be something too complex to work.

 

Maybe this could be intro'd with a quick discussion of fairly standard spell limits, and a code word for removing those limits ("Still" removes Gestures; "Silent" removes Incantations; "Complex" makes gestures 2 handed; Mastery removes incantations, gestures, foci and RAR) etc.) Options could then be set out in minimal space (Still XRP; Silent X RP; Still & Silent X RP; Mastery X RP. Maybe this could even be a (very word-dense) appendix (or listing at the end of each section) setting out revised prices for each spell's standard options. The major part of the section would then be the descriptions of the spells themselves, and their more unusual, spell-specific, variants and options.

 

Of course, it could be a lot of work, but then the same work is needed if each option is presented on its own line for each spell.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I believe you're thinking of Theurgy from pages 231-40 of The Turakian Age. That's a possibility' date=' but tricky (and not much fun) to pull off without a specific pantheon to refer to. But it's worth considering, particularly if I expand it to include "celestial magics" based on stars and such.[/quote']That would be very cool. Maybe you could use a "generic" pantheon of sorts, incorporating elements of Greek, Norse, Egyptian, Hindu, and even Turakian Age gods, with notes in the section's introduction on how it could be adapted to specific pantheons.

 

(I was captivated by the idea enough that I incorporated it as an element -- albeit a very minor one -- in my novel.)

[lapsedgamer]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I never play traditional fantasy anymore, but I like Urban Fantasy. Is there going to be enough information here to allow for use with the basic rules or to adapt UFH to 6th Edition?

[dmjalund]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Perhaps a guide to alternatives to the Greek 'four elements'

[The Main Man]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Maybe this could be intro'd with a quick discussion of fairly standard spell limits, and a code word for removing those limits ("Still" removes Gestures; "Silent" removes Incantations; "Complex" makes gestures 2 handed; Mastery removes incantations, gestures, foci and RAR) etc.) Options could then be set out in minimal space (Still XRP; Silent X RP; Still & Silent X RP; Mastery X RP. Maybe this could even be a (very word-dense) appendix (or listing at the end of each section) setting out revised prices for each spell's standard options. The major part of the section would then be the descriptions of the spells themselves, and their more unusual, spell-specific, variants and options.

 

Of course, it could be a lot of work, but then the same work is needed if each option is presented on its own line for each spell.

 

Yes, that's what I'm talking about too. It would remove clutter for one thing.

[The Main Man]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

This might not be appropriate to HSG, but what about a Captain Marvel-like spell that invokes an alternate superpowered form? I believe that would be a... Conjuration... spell?

[dsatow]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I did not see the following but hopefully they are covered in other areas

 

1. Illusions - Such a basic category not seemingly covered by any listed
   
2. Chi Spells/Reiki are those based internally and hopefully aren't being covered by Chinese Magic which is different. Good examples of Chi Spells are legendary feats done by Shaolin Monks, while Chinese magic is more like the Big Trouble in Little China variety.
   
3. White magic (not divine, mostly protective/healing spells) Can also cover most Judeochristian spells
   
4. Healing Arts - many games have healer guilds.
   
5. Coincidental Magic - Not very flashy. Designed to manipulate luck/probability. Making weapons hit better, armor protect better, meeting people or summoning to an area, items falling on people, etc.
   
6. Blood Magic - Not necromancy. Deals with sacrificing living things to get what you want. Also can deal with sacrificing other cherished items. Ex: Sacrificing sight for a while to see the future. Sacrificing Body to power attack spells. etc.
   
7. Warding - Though this might be covered under Enchantment or White Magic
   
8. Onmyodo - Japanese mysticism (I'm biased but its present in a lot of anime) You can also bundle Shinto spells here too.
   
9. Mentalism - Spells which have a mental basis.
   
10. Tantric/Sex magic - OK, this probably won't go into due to PG13 limitations.
    

 

Song Magic might be better as Song and Dance Magic as there are spells based on people doing dancing.

 

Just thought of adding some more

Tarot based

From Dead Lands: Huckster

Seconding a previous post: Urban Fantasy Spells

[Dreamstreamer]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Temporal Magic (Time travel/manipulation, like in the Prince of Persia/Sands of Time?)

Dimensional Magic (Plane-hopping, maybe?)

 

I'll try to think of more. Quick question: Could we get a blurb (one or two sentences) about each of the current categories so that we are all on the same page? I want to be helpful and don't want to waste your time offering suggestions for a category that is already covered.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Maybe something on Native American Medicine (like the Navajo Blessing Way/Enemy Way for ceremonies where sand painting is used rather than songs)?

[BobGreenwade]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Cantrips (Mini-spells?)

 

Well' date=' there are varying levels of power for the individual spells presented in the Options. Beyond that I think that defining "cantrips" would be a magic system- or setting-specific thing for the GM to define.[/quote']I've generally thought of a "cantrip" as being a very minor spell of highly specific utility, such as collecting a pile of papers into a neat sheaf, igniting a fire to start a torch or campfire, or putting a book back to its spot on the shelf (or any object back to its normal storage space). These would typically cost no more than 1 point in Hero System terms. Perhaps a dozen or so such spells could be included at the beginning of the Wizardry section as examples?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

The way I think of cantrips is as power stunts using Power (Magic). I wouldn't see it needing more than a paragraph or two in addition to what we already have for power stunts.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I just want to add that I'm very happy to see cybermancy in the list; hopefully it'll be written in a way to make it suitable for the Space Wizards setting.

 

And speaking of which, Steve, would it be helpful if I were to send you the mini-grimoire that I wrote up for that setting? Or would you rather just build everything from scratch? (There's also a "spell college" of space-oriented magic that could also be used in any other setting featuring both magic and interstellar magic, or in a superhero setting.)

[Dino]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'd really, really, really like to see some "Realistic Magic" spells as described in Ultimate Mystic. If not worthy of their own school, they could be a variant listed in the options section for each spell.

[Steve Long]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Is there going to be enough information here to allow for use with the basic rules or to adapt UFH to 6th Edition?

 

I don't see any reason why you couldn't use HSG spells in an Urban Fantasy Hero game -- it's just a question of picking the appropriate spells and options to fit the "feel" of your Urban Fantasy game, since Urban Fantasy (like other type of Fantasy) can vary wildly in the types of magic used, how common/open it is, and so on. The Cybermancy category of spells, for example, is pretty much entirely aimed at Urban Fantasy and the like, since it's spells that manipulate machinery, electronics, technology, and related phenomena.

[Steve Long]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I've generally thought of a "cantrip" as being a very minor spell of highly specific utility, such as collecting a pile of papers into a neat sheaf, igniting a fire to start a torch or campfire, or putting a book back to its spot on the shelf (or any object back to its normal storage space). These would typically cost no more than 1 point in Hero System terms. Perhaps a dozen or so such spells could be included at the beginning of the Wizardry section as examples?

 

No, they can't. What you "generally think of" as a cantrip isn't what other people consider a cantrip to be. It's a systemic thing that varies from person to person. My original response on this issue stands.

[Steve Long]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'd really, really, really like to see some "Realistic Magic" spells as described in [The HERO System Grimoire]. If not worthy of their own school, they could be a variant listed in the options section for each spell.

 

Unfortunately, they generally can't. There's no way to make a Fireball, a Demon Summoning Spell, or the vast majority of other spells in the book "realistic." But the "origin special effect" of each spell (to use UEP terminology) is completely left up to the GM and player. You don't need me to do it for you; just take the spell and define its origin special effect as "realistic," and you're good to go!

[The Main Man]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

What if there were summoning spells that referred back to HSB (especially for the costs)?

 

This may fall under "alternate SFX" but how about a set of spells that invoke Clarke's Law?

[Spence]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I don't really see much to add. Most of the suggestions (IMO) are just campaign flavor. I've been in games where "Blood Magic" was eeeeevilllllll........... But I've also played in game where the Blood mage was one of the most valuable PC's. Healing was called Blood Magic.

 

This is hero, and if you step back and take a look, the so called categories are just there because you have to do something or you wind up with a alphabetical list of 500+ things with no way to real find anything.

 

If I chant a word and the bolt shoots out and does 2d6 it is Magery

If I prick my finger and the drop of blood shoots out and does 2d6 it is Blood Magic

If I press a sequence of inlaid symbols on my bracer and the bolt shoots out shoots out and does 2d6 it could be Thaumaturgy, Alchemy, Rune Magic or Technomancy (depending on what the gauntlet is).

 

And yes I know the definition of Alchemy doesn't lend itself well to a gauntlet firing a bolt, but I actually read a story where the alchemist "loaded" his gauntlet with "magic powder" so he could shoot "bolts of magical fire".

 

My point is that no two RPG players could make it through the list in agreement of just what is what. So the book is painting very broad categories by general classification so you have some hope of finding the build you need. Once you find it, the special effect is anything you need it to be. If Steve's idea of Sorcery is the same as mine, I could take half of the Sorcery list and just change the effect to cold/ice and call it Hellfrost Magic. It most likely isn't though......

 

For myself I just can't think of another category of effects that wasn't covered by the original list.

 

But that is just me. I can't play straight book with Hero, I have this uncontrollable need to 'tweek' things

[Markdoc]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Maybe this could be intro'd with a quick discussion of fairly standard spell limits, and a code word for removing those limits ("Still" removes Gestures; "Silent" removes Incantations; "Complex" makes gestures 2 handed; Mastery removes incantations, gestures, foci and RAR) etc.) Options could then be set out in minimal space (Still XRP; Silent X RP; Still & Silent X RP; Mastery X RP. Maybe this could even be a (very word-dense) appendix (or listing at the end of each section) setting out revised prices for each spell's standard options. The major part of the section would then be the descriptions of the spells themselves, and their more unusual, spell-specific, variants and options.

 

Of course, it could be a lot of work, but then the same work is needed if each option is presented on its own line for each spell.

 

It's less work than you'd think - I did this for my online fantasy grimoire, which was updated for 5th Ed relatively easily and seems to be pretty widely used.

 

So what I'd like to see is spells presented the same way. Have spells listed with only the modifiers required to define the spell - a fireball, for example requires area of effect, to model the iconic version, while Doomkill requires area of effect and a nasty side effect (range is variable!). Neither of them "require" gestures, or a magic wand to be instantly recognisable: those are things that could be used to produce that spell, but they are not a defining feature.

 

That way things like gestures, incantations, require sacrifice of a live baby, etc, can be added as is required by the magic system. If "common limitations" like that are added in, it makes the spells not only bulkier in terms of space required, but also less user-friendly, since typically every spell will need to be modified to fit it in with whatever magic system is being used. I own all of the Fantasy hero books, but I almost didn't buy the Grimoire, for precisely that reason: a fair chunk of it was text about modifiers that I wasn't going to use anyway.

 

Oh and one more thing: HDC prefabs. I use the prefabs for spells from my own Grimoire (thanks guys!), probably more than any other. If the grimoire is good, I'd buy the .hdcs in a heartbeat.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: THE HERO SYSTEM GRIMOIRE: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Following up on Markdoc's approach, which I like a lot, spells could also include a line setting out real points with various additional levels of limitations. This would not set out what the limitations are, just provide the real point cost if you add -1/4 in limitations, -1/2, -3/4, etc. While I have no problem re-costing the spell for any additional limitations I want to add, the Grimoire is intended for a "plug & play" approach, and providing easy recosting enhances that aspect (albeit at the cost of an extra line per spell).