Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Over at Rocketpunk Manifesto, the topic of the week is surface warfare. (As opposed to space warfare.) It's a substantial post with an even more substantial comment thread (450 and counting.)

 

The general principle of future surface war, it seems to me, is that if you are caught out in the open you are headed for the celestial choir. This goes for guerillas, it goes for power armor troops, it goes for laser armed tanks, trimaran cruisers, aircraft, and spacecraft in low orbit. Give precision weapons a clear target and they will take it out.

 

Thirty meter mecha, sad to say, make for very clear targets.

 

OUCH!!! Here's a nice video demonstration of precision weaponry catching targets out in the open:

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

I assume since you posted this here, you want to start your own version of this discussion?

 

It strikes me that one advantage humanform mecha would have over traditional armored vehicles, is agility. A machine that can move with coordination and reflex speed close to its human operator -- or potentially, even moreso -- will be able to avoid many types of otherwise precisely targeted weapons, provided the operator is aware of the threat. I'm put in mind of the scene from the first Iron Man film, when IM dodges a tank cannon shell by simply stepping out of its direct path; or District 9, in which the mecha plucks a SAM out of the air in mid-flight.

 

One also has to consider the potential improvements to defenses that would go hand in hand with the technology needed to build humanoid robotic "suits": improvements to armor, physical or electronic countermeasures to targeting systems, and the like. More sophisticated and powerful missiles have not eliminated the combat use of tanks, aircraft, or naval vessels; they've become more sophisticated themselves in their defense.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

Response speed may or may not be an advantage of mecha; it depends on how quickly a mech's limbs can move. If the mechanics of the limb's movement don't move quickly, then all the human speed in the world won't make an inch of difference.

 

That said, I can think of three real practical reasons for humanform mecha.

 

First: traversing awkward terrain. Wheels and tracks need fairly smooth ground to go over, while legs can traverse nearly anything. A wall, a fallen tree, or even a small building is something that a tank has to go around, but a mech can go over.

 

Second: vantage point. There are several reasons that getting to a physically higher point is an advantage in a fight, and I don't claim to understand all or even most of them, but among them are range of vision and ability to assess surroundings. (Biologists believe that this is why primates in general, and humans even more than the others, developed upright posture.)

 

Third: interface. In a society where technology is such that machines can be directed by thought -- and we're in the beginning phases of developing just such technology today -- the human form is just more familiar, and thus easier to learn.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

I never really grok this implied hostility to mecha as a viable sci fi military vehicle/weapons platform. First, mecha can carry all the defensive features that an advanced tracked AFV could--stealth systems(active and passive), ECM, reactive armor and whatever kind of area denial or area defense systems might be cooked up. So a precision guided weapon system would need to be very powerful, fast, electronically sophisticated, and rugged to withstand all the obstacles a group of walking tanks, even one out in the open, could put in their way. And a large mobile weapons platform might even be capable of targeting the PGM delivery platform as well. A walking vehicle would be able to travel across certain types of terrain much better than a tracked or wheeled vehicle might. Having a higher silhouette does have drawbacks, true, but it also gives one a superior view of the battlefield environment, too. And there's nothing to say that a properly designed mecha might have both bipedal and quadrupedal modes, where it goes on all fours, or even crouches in place, to lower its vertical profile. I just think folks write off mecha a little too quickly. We have no way of knowing whether there will be some new development that muddles up precision guided munitions something fierce.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

I used to rage about it all the time back when I was young, but well, I was young.* I think it had something to do with the solipsist implications of the one-person war machine, as opposed to the crew-served tank. And also the rationalisations smacked of the whole, everybody who ever lived was stupid, until me. Though why that should have bothered me in my 20s, I cannot guess.

 

 

*Grow up, stand up straight, shave that stupid facial hair, get a job and do your homework, you horrible, wet little git! Don't make me get a time machine and come back there!

There. I feel better now.

[Escafarc]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZyI4DN0OGc&feature=player_embedded#!

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

UAV's can provide a better vantage point, from a stealthier, cheaper platform than giant mecha. As a rationale for building upright walking war machines, this doesn't work.

 

The all-terrain capability is a better argument, although a low-crawling multi-legged chassis in the same weight-class would work just as well with less exposure and more survivability.

 

As for the interface, we're back to 'rule of cool' there. Any type of vehicle can be difficult to handle or easier to handle, depending on how well it's designed.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

Well, technically, a mecha could also be a humanoid torso atop a tracked chassis, with "arms" holding modular weapon systems and doing other useful stuff.

[feralucce]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

Response speed may or may not be an advantage of mecha; it depends on how quickly a mech's limbs can move. If the mechanics of the limb's movement don't move quickly, then all the human speed in the world won't make an inch of difference.

 

You are forgetting the 5th law of anime phsysics.

 

Law #5

 

Law of Mechanical Mobility, Second Law of Anime Motion - The larger a mechanical device is, the faster it moves. Armored Mecha are the fastest objects known to human science.

[Ice9]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

Power suits and mid-size mechs seem like they could definitely be viable in the right circumstances. What I'm not so sure about is the giant (several story tall) mecha that stomp around like Godzilla. Something that big, even if it can move relatively fast, is going to be a pretty easy target, and loses many of the manuevering advantages smaller mechs have over conventional vehicles.

 

Also, if that robot battle show is any indication, the most effective mecha will be a ramp-shaped ground vehicle that drives under the other mechs feet and makes them fall over.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

Power suits and mid-size mechs seem like they could definitely be viable in the right circumstances. What I'm not so sure about is the giant (several story tall) mecha that stomp around like Godzilla. Something that big, even if it can move relatively fast, is going to be a pretty easy target, and loses many of the manuevering advantages smaller mechs have over conventional vehicles.

 

Also, if that robot battle show is any indication, the most effective mecha will be a ramp-shaped ground vehicle that drives under the other mechs feet and makes them fall over.

 

That show was awesome.

 

In all seriousness, the low-profile vehicle has a number of advantages: harder to knock over, harder to target, harder to penetrate (sloped armor for the win), easier to conceal, more aerodynamic... I could go on and on and on here, but nothing seems to trump the ultimate of all Ultimate Trump Cards:

 

The Mecha wins 'cuz it's COOLER!!!

 

I, of course, remain the sworn enemy of all that is cool....

 

[megaplayboy]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

But the vaguely-human shaped vehicle with arms can carry a big shield and move it around!

More seriously, there is one sense in which a lower-sitting vehicle has a bit of a disadvantage...range of kinetic-kill weapons. If you fire the same gun from 8m up, the shells tend to travel further before falling to ground than when fired from 2m up.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

And the 2 metre-tall thing can hide behind way more stuff.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

But the vaguely-human shaped vehicle with arms can carry a big shield and move it around!

More seriously, there is one sense in which a lower-sitting vehicle has a bit of a disadvantage...range of kinetic-kill weapons. If you fire the same gun from 8m up, the shells tend to travel further before falling to ground than when fired from 2m up.

 

Yes, the military value of high ground has been well-documented, going back at least as far as Sun-Tzu. But building 8m (or more!) of high ground into the vehicle seems a bit extreme....

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

If coolness was a deciding factor in military policy, they'd be using a lot more jet packs.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

If coolness was a deciding factor in military policy' date=' they'd be using a lot more jet packs.[/quote']

 

Jet-packing giant robots v. sharks w/lasers on their heads. <<>>

[feralucce]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

the two meter tall ones are not far away...

 

[csyphrett]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

As regards to the original quoted post (even though I like giant robots also) the tanks from hammers slammers and bolo were always caught out in the open. I can only remember a few times when they were hit by anything because the computers on board tended to blow crap out of the sky before they got close.

 

And i think Bolos counts as giant robots, don't they. I seem to remember a bolo shooting down a starship in orbit but I could be wrong.

CES

[megaplayboy]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

And the 2 metre-tall thing can hide behind way more stuff.

 

...which the taller thing can fire over. We can do this all day long.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

Yes' date=' the military value of high ground has been well-documented, going back at least as far as Sun-Tzu. But building 8m (or more!) of high ground [i']into the vehicle[/i] seems a bit extreme....

 

Well, the original linked topic suggests powered armor might be viable, and that'd be 2 meter tall bigger-than-human-sized targets moving around. A buffed up version of such armor might be 3 or 4 meters tall, carrying light cannon and perhaps a missile pack or something similar. If they want heavy support to come along with them, and they're traveling over ground that's impassable to tracked vehicles, they might need to have at least the arachnamorphic low-sitting "crawler" you suggested, and an 8 meter long quadrupedal tank that can stand and "walk" upright might become an 8 meter tall biped in some situations.

[Vulcan]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

As regards to the original quoted post (even though I like giant robots also) the tanks from hammers slammers and bolo were always caught out in the open. I can only remember a few times when they were hit by anything because the computers on board tended to blow crap out of the sky before they got close.

 

And i think Bolos counts as giant robots, don't they. I seem to remember a bolo shooting down a starship in orbit but I could be wrong.

CES

 

Technically Bolos are battleship-sized tanks, not mecha, but many of the same arguments against mecha apply... but not the 'thickness of armor' one.

 

Yes, there are many instances in the books where Bolos shoot down starships. The later versions (XXX and up) were designed specifically as planetary defense units; to not just engage aerial and surface targets, but targets in orbit as well!

 

Edit: the more viable looking mecha designs I have seen are basically tank chassis with legs on the corners. The well-designed ones are built to squat down to normal tank height for taking cover, but can raise themselves up several meters high for maximum cross-terrain mobility... and taking advatange of higher firing positions. All that and much of the same armor protection of a tank? Not too shabby if you ask me!

 

A mid-sized (i.e. 6-8m) humanoid mecha of human response time and maneuverabilty would have the ability to crawl and drop prone into whatever cover was available, likely being no more than 1-1.5m in 'length' (front to back) and might well be better able to use whatever cover or concealment exist than a conventional tank.

 

Now the big ones likely wouldn't have that option and would be utterly dependant on armor for protection, and realistically speaking the armor of a conventional tank will always be better than that of a equivalent-size/cost mecha. The mecha would have to defend itself with the power of coolness... which isn't terribly good at stopping armor-piercing rounds.

 

Of course, that is speaking in a strictly realistic sense. In a game/story, the mechanics can be altered to fit the needs of the GM/author.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tengen_Toppa_Gurren_Lagann_mecha#Tengen_Toppa_Gurren_Lagann

 

Clearly a vehicle as out in the open as this one is vulnerable to precision-guided munitions.

[csyphrett]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tengen_Toppa_Gurren_Lagann_mecha#Tengen_Toppa_Gurren_Lagann

 

Clearly a vehicle as out in the open as this one is vulnerable to precision-guided munitions.

 

I dont think a mech that can throw a galaxy like a throwing star counts for this but on the other hand that million drill thing was awesome.

CES

[Old Man]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

I can think of environments in which giant mecha would be superior to UAVs and other armed vehicles. Unfortunately, they're pretty unusual--high gravity, low atmosphere, extremely rough terrain. The terrain would have to be rough enough to basically require climbing and jumping, and the gravity/atmosphere combination has to be difficult enough to prevent effective UAV usage. Otherwise you're better off just building a tank like everyone else.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

 

Well, we have IFVs and armored cars and Stryker vehicles and whatnot in a world where MBTs exist, so why couldn't "walking scout tanks" and whatnot coexist with regular sci fi tanks?