Clockwork and Chivalry in HERO: rule development stuff

[Doc Democracy]

OK. I am fixing to run up some rules to run Clockwork and Chivalry. I am going to post the stuff in its final form in a thread elsewhere but I would like to use this thread to run stuff past people here. It is fantasy and so I reckon this is the best place to work from.

 

As a start I would like to ask people's opinions on one of the aspects of the magic. The idea is that anyone can harness the magical power of the elements if they know the right things. Everything is based on first constructing a focus for magical energies which ablates as it is used. Nothing in HERO quite fits and so my idea is to use their ideas for making the focus and translating that as BODY in the focus for HERO. Each spell has to be 0 END and buy the disadvantage causes damage to Focus. Side Effect I think.

 

However, the construction of the focus is based on knowledge too - you begin in the laboratory and make an alchemy roll and this adds 2 BODY to the focus. Each hour thereafter requires an alchemy roll at -1 to add another 2 BODY. A failed roll results in a mishap, severity mediated by how much the roll is missed by.

 

This kind of works in the Runequest rules as the ability to increase the alchemy roll is self-limited - you need to increase the skill by experience rolls. Thus your ability to make big foci (and so access big spells) is also limited.

 

In HERO that does not work the same. You simply purchase more skill levels in the alchemy skill to remove much of the danger of making the foci.

 

I am wondering how people might achieve a similar result - balancing the danger of increasing the size of the focus against the gaining access to more powerful magical effects.

 

I was thinking that I might give the skill a limitation of must fail a skill roll before being able to spend experience on it. Thus, if you have a 17- skill or better the chance of increasing it is remote. Certain artefacts might increase this, or exposure to things in game provide a greater opportunity.

 

Thus, with Alchemy 11-, the chance of making a 2 BODY focus is 62.5%, converting that to a 4 BODY focus is 50%, then 6 BODY is 37.5%, then 8 BODY is 26%. So a 3% chance of getting to an 8 BODY focus.

 

That does not seem to bad for a beginning alchemist.

 

A master alchemist with 17- shifts that substantially. He would have an 84% chance of making an 8 BODY focus. 70% chance of a 10 BODY focus and 60% chance of a 12 BODY focus. If he pushes it to 14 BODY he would have a 40% chance of success.

 

To give some idea of effects, all spells will do 1 BODY to the focus - so a 12 BODY focus will provide access to 12 low level spells, will allow the alchemist to cast spells with more juice (rather than giving +1 to hit and +1 BODY to damage, to go as high as +4 to hit and +4 damage for the duration of a fight). The +1 version would do 1 BODY to the focus, the +4 version would do 4 BODY.

 

The foci are also used to summon elementals - the 12 BODY focus being able to access an elemental 12 times as powerful as a 1 BODY focus.

 

So. Do you think that limiting the skill to this is OK or should I make the ability to grow the skill even harder? Do you think it would be unbalancing?

 

 

Doc

[JPicasso]

Re: Clockwork and Chivalry in HERO: rule development stuff

 

You could sort of mimic this with an endurance reserve (call it a mana reserve) that would power a wizards spells. Instead of normal recovery, the caster would have to make a skill roll with, say, -1 per 10 end already in the reserve (or -1 per 20, whatever works)

 

Sounds kinda what you are doing, and it's already there. Would also handle if you have any high-mana zones where the caster might get an automatic REC/ day on an item.

 

 

One problem I see with this, is what is to stop a wizard from carrying a pocket full of one-shot foci in their pocket? If all I have is low level spells, I would have no trouble powering up a gob of foci, and never having to worry about increasing my reserves in a single object.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Clockwork and Chivalry in HERO: rule development stuff

 

You could sort of mimic this with an endurance reserve (call it a mana reserve) that would power a wizards spells. Instead of normal recovery, the caster would have to make a skill roll with, say, -1 per 10 end already in the reserve (or -1 per 20, whatever works)

 

Sounds kinda what you are doing, and it's already there. Would also handle if you have any high-mana zones where the caster might get an automatic REC/ day on an item.

 

Endurance reserve was my first thought. I think the focus creation/destruction works slightly better as I do not have to think about getting the END costs right - I simply have to cause BODY destruction to the foci.

 

 

One problem I see with this' date=' is what is to stop a wizard from carrying a pocket full of one-shot foci in their pocket? If all I have is low level spells, I would have no trouble powering up a gob of foci, and never having to worry about increasing my reserves in a single object.[/quote']

 

The problem is not having lots of low level spells - they are minor effects that do not stack. It is the access to high power spells that I am trying to limit and to find a way of doing that. High reserves in the focus (or high body values) give access to high power spells and I need to be able to prevent that becoming too easy.

 

Thanks for the reply BTW, 26 views and no comments. I was concerned I had made the whole thing too complicated through all of my rambling context...

 

Doc

[JPicasso]

Re: Clockwork and Chivalry in HERO: rule development stuff

 

I still think an End reserve is the best course of action. HERO handles higher "level" spells with active points. Active points are how different abilities are measured. While not perfect, it does a decent job of keeping things "even". AP also determines how much END a power would use. (see where I'm going here?)

 

So, your lower "level"... and lets drop the term level right now. Your lower AP spells will cost 1 or 2 END per the typical 1END per 10 AP in the spell. your Higher AP spells will cost more END. This kind of handles what you are looking for.

 

Another thing to consider is that by forcing the spells to be 0END, and THEN put a limitation on them that they work through the BODY of a focus, really raises their AP unnecessarily. You'll end up with powers costing more than they would in another Fantasy setting. Not that that is a bad thing, but it is another factor to consider with your BODY focus.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that HERO has a mechanism for this, I vote you use it, and tweak a bit, with the ablative effect, rather than coming up with your own, and complicating the process.

 

And, if you have not yet visited, killershrike.com has some very cool takes on different magic systems in the HERO world. Worth checking out.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Clockwork and Chivalry in HERO: rule development stuff

 

Maybe I should be less garbled when setting my desires. :-) Things get lost.

 

Spells will not be bought by players, they are available to anyone who can create the necessary focus. Active points are not going to be the issue.

 

My issue with balance is the creation of the foci that give access to the spells. The actual mechanics of what makes a big spell or a small spell are to the side of the issue.

 

While KS does have a wealth of stuff on his site, this is slightly off the beaten track though and so I have to work it through on here. I dont think my first guesses are too far off but would appreciate someone else to have a critical eye on them.

 

Even if I was to use the END Reserve it would mean that creating a focus created an END reserve with no REC. You cannot recharge a focus, only create a new one. You need to determine how much END goes into the focus when you create it. When the focus is in your hand all you need is a KS: Spell to cast the spell using the stone - the KS will be the same regardless of whether the spell is 10 active points or 100 active points. The only difference is in how much END it would use.

 

The core issue is the same. How do you limit the players ability to create huge foci with a small expenditure of points.

 

Doc

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Clockwork and Chivalry in HERO: rule development stuff

 

How do you limit the players ability to create huge foci with a small expenditure of points.

 

Time and access to raw materials. If a focus takes a day to make, and the characters have to leave in three days, they can't make more than three. Likewise, if they don't have the powdered opal they need, they can't make any.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Clockwork and Chivalry in HERO: rule development stuff

 

Time and access to raw materials. If a focus takes a day to make' date=' and the characters have to leave in three days, they can't make more than three. Likewise, if they don't have the powdered opal they need, they can't make any.[/quote']

 

I have that, but it does put a lot in the GMs hands. Yes, you can make a focus that could run spells of magnitude 24 but you do not have the raw materials.

 

It is not something I would like to run often. I think we'd end up with huge inventory lists of ingredients and what things cost to cast etc. Would be more like running a shop or playing Chivalry and Sorcery than Clockwork and Chivalry.

 

I wanted something hardwired into the system. I will have the whole ingredient thing to use as a one off when I really dont want them to have access to their magic.

 

Doc

[Markdoc]

Re: Clockwork and Chivalry in HERO: rule development stuff

 

The simplest way - or at least the way I would approach this - is to make your skill roll a very hard roll (-1 per 5 active points) and define your focus, by the size of the power in it. That's the hero way, after all. A 1 point focus holds 5 active points (-1 on the roll) and lets you summon a 25 point elemental. A 300 point elemental would require a 60 point focus, which is a whopping -12 on your skill roll. That means people could summon small elemental reasonably easily, but only an expert would be able to make a foci that could be used to summon a powerful one. However, an alchemist with access to an excellent lab, who opts to take extra time over the creation of a focus, could manage that.

 

You could also - as I understand the system - use a large foci for summoning multiple small elementals - can you use multiple small ones for summoning a large one? Also, what do you see as the base time for the skill? An hour? A day?

 

Finally, I'd drop side effect on top of that - the destruction of the material used in the focus would probably be appropriate, but a badly failed roll might give you a focus that is flawed ... which only shows up during the casting using it.

 

To give it that oldey-timey alchemical feel, I'd probably adapt something like this to encourage would be alchemists to potter about calculating the appropriate hours for making stuff.

 

To avoid characters who pour masses of points into the focus-making skill and nothing else, I'd be inclined to require multiple different skills.

1. To make the focus

2. To summon the elemental

3. To bind the elemental

4. etc.

 

In other words, the focus s required to do magic, but if Joshua the Cartwright finds a massive focus, that isn't going to make him a master magician: he still needs to know how to summon an elemental, which elemental to call, and how to talk to it, instruct it, etc. A coven, on the other hand might have multiple members, who excell in one aspect or the other.

 

cheers, Mark

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Clockwork and Chivalry in HERO: rule development stuff

 

I guess you are right.

 

If the focus is made to magnitude 12 which would allow for a magnitdue 12 elemental (60 active points, 300 point elemental) then that only provides the possibility of casting the spell. The alchemist then has to summon elemental with -12 to his Summon Elemental Skill. Of course it still allows players to build the skill up to take away the danger of making the foci in the first place but that could get old after a while.

 

If you summoned a small elemental then the focus would be partially degraded - summoning a magnitude 4 elemental with a magnitude 12 focus would leave you with a magnitude 8 focus. If you wanted to summon a magnitude 12 elemental after that you would have to create a new focus and work it up to magnitude 12 with all of the problems that might incur.

 

You cannot use multiple small foci instead of one big one.

 

As for finding foci - you can only use foci that you have created yourself - so finding a big one simply deprives a rival of some of their power...

 

:-)

 

 

Doc

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Clockwork and Chivalry in HERO: rule development stuff

 

I have that, but it does put a lot in the GMs hands. Yes, you can make a focus that could run spells of magnitude 24 but you do not have the raw materials.

 

It is not something I would like to run often. I think we'd end up with huge inventory lists of ingredients and what things cost to cast etc. Would be more like running a shop or playing Chivalry and Sorcery than Clockwork and Chivalry.

 

It would be fairly easy to keep abstract - just say that so many XP worth of material are available. You could break it down into common, uncommon, and rare (like expendable foci) if you want a bit more detail.