how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

[yukonhorror]

I am new to HERO, and am wondering how much BODY dam is usually accumulated during a typical encounter (let's say a band of orcs) in a fantasy heroic level game.

 

I am used to D&D and Final Fantasy where damage is common, but healing is too.

 

I want to build my world like that too. Reading up on healing powers, they make healing REALLY restrictive, but that might reflect that BODY dam is uncommon. I DON'T want a gritty combat will kill you and should be avoided at all costs kind of game.

 

Most of my attacks will do killing dam (claws, swords, etc...). Even with that consideration, will a player accumulate a lot of BODY dam? With how their defenses are, the typical accuracy/effectiveness of the bad guys attacking the heroes, etc... will the loss of BODY be as detrimental (and as a result RARE) as the healing powers imply??

 

I ask because I am trying to define the healing spells (like Regen and Cure) from Final Fantasy, but the numbers/mechanics/restrictions don't SEEM to match the flavor of the final fantasy world. If Body dam is rare (a fighter type character will lose 10 BODY dam MAX over the course of 3 encounters) then I am inclined to keep the healing as defined. But if a fighter type character is expected to take 10 body dam in one battle, I want healing to be less restrictive.

 

IF common combat would result in common body dam, then I am all ears about how to modify healing to compensate.

[Susano]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

BODY damage depends on the genre. In a Champions game you may never take BODY. Defenses are high and most attacks do Normal Damage. In a Star Hero game, people have lots of Killing Attacks (lasers, blasters, whatever), but personal armor may be so good you are able to take a lot of abuse and still come out okay. In a martial arts game, most of the damage will be Normal (due to it being strength-based attacks), but usually the damage done is more than your PD. However, Damage Reduction shows up a lot in Ninja Hero games, meaning the PCs can take a lot more abuse than a regular person.

 

In a fantasy game, played straight, the ability to do damage slightly exceeds the average defenses of most characters. If you have 1d6+1 swords, that's an average of 4 BODY per hit. Leather is 3 DEF, so characters will get slowly whittled down. If you don't use STR minimums, that 1d6+1 quickly becomes 2d6, which is 7 BODY on average, and even 6 DEF mail is going to offer only limited protection.

 

However, all of this depends on power level. If you are letting people purchase high stats (STR of 15-20) then they'll be able to add STR to many of thier weapons. Weapons Master and the like will let you add full dice of damage to your attacks (making that 1d6+1 sword a 2d6+1 sword), as will Combat Skill Levels and Martial Arts. It's quite possible for a 175-point starting PC to be able to take his 1d6+1 sword up to 2d6+1 or better in no time. (Start at 1d6+1 HKA, add +1 DC due to having a 15 STR, add +1 DC using two CSLs, add +1 DC with a martial maneuver, that's +1d6 HKA right there!) Add in Hit Locations and your fantasy sword fights can be lethal.

 

That said, the one time I played in an extended fantasy game (where we were all 16th C samurai), most of the enemies couldn't produce those numbers. So we took a few minor wounds (say 1-3 BODY) in the course of a fight, with occasional streaks of bad luck where the GM hit us for 10+ BODY.

 

I realize I'm not giving you a straight answer, but unlike D&D, where damage is pretty set, Hero combat results have a lot of variables. Hopefully some other people will fill in with their experiences.

[mayapuppies]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

And if you're using Hit Locations those numbers get even more variable.

 

Once again, it all depends on what limits you set on your campaign and what, if any, optional rules you use.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

How much BODY is being thrown around really is up to the limits and such you set for your campaign.

 

It basically is a determination of how lethal / realistic / slow you want combat to be. There is nothing wrong with playing a more D&D like game of Fantasy Hero where defenses are higher than normal and characters larger than life; nor is there anything inherently wrong with a more realistic, gritty setting where you REALLY don't want to get stabbed.

 

A few examples:

 

Gritty/Realistic: Armor is 2 to 8 DEF at most. Attacks are in the 1d6k to 3d6k range. Hit locations in use, wounding and disabling and bleeding, etc. So a typical attack is likely to do some damage, and that damage will have consequences. Entirely possible for a character to outright die from a blow to the head or vitals, or to go negative BODY in a single hit.

 

Low Fantasy / Heroic: Max defense goes up to 10 or 12 DEF (rPD/rED) - magic armor, or stoneskin spells, or stacking light armor with Combat Luck, etc. - With attacks remaining around 2d6k. Using hit locations, but not wounding or disabling or bleeding unless "dramatically appropriate." So a head shot can probably bring a character to negative BODY, but not kill them outright. Most attacks will do no BODY or maybe 1 or 2, occasionally a lucky shot will do more.

 

High Fantasy: This is more like Champs in a fantasy setting - high defenses or layered defenses mean little to no BODY will be taken from all but the most powerful attacks. Hit locations used by PC's or in special cases only.

 

Again, you (the GM) decide what level of attack vs. defense you want. 2 DEF vs. 3 DC (2 rPD vs. 1d6 KA) is low, 5 DEF vs. 3 DC (5 rPD vs. 1d6 KA) is high. 6 DEF negates 3 Damage classes entirely, barring hit locations or power advantages like Armor Piercing.

 

Hope this helps.

[yukonhorror]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

Let's say I want a typical melee character to have a DCV of 5, a PD 7 (with 6 rPD from armor for a total of 13) and 15 body.

 

I want a typical monster to have an OCV of 4 with 15 STR equipped with a weapon that has a STR min of 10 that does +1d6 HKA.

 

Would that accrue lots of body dam??

 

I could crunch the numbers myself, but I don't have a "feel" for what is high and what is not. I don't know what limitations to put on the game to get the feel I want. So I guess that is another question. What limitations/changes should I have/make to give it the feel of Final Fantasy.

 

3 combats a day (about) the majority of the damage sustained is healed after an overnight rest at the inn, I can pop a healing potion and be back at full body, etc...

 

I'd rather be prepared for the danger level of combat BEFORE my game starts, but it is hard to assess before I start the campaign.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

Using your typical stats, the monster will hit the PC half the time. He will do 1d6 + 1 Body (the +1 being one extra damage class from his 5 STR in excess of the STR min on his weapon), which will get one BOD past that 6 rDEF 1 time in 6, so the PC's will rarely take BOD damage with those standards.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

What they said....

 

The priority of damage in HERO is reversed from most other systems.

It's subdue (STUN) first, kill (BODY) second.

Optional lethality rules can always be implemented but the basic system is more non-lethal than most other rpgs.

[Nolgroth]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

Also consider Stun in this process. If you are using a Flat Rate Stun Multiplier of 1d3, the character may take a little more Stun on some attacks and be Stunned. If you use Hit Locations, then the Stun Multiplier is built in. Some shots may also hit unprotected areas and do pretty significant Body and Stun. For example if he is not wearing a helmet and takes a Head shot, he could take up to 14 Body and (35-7 PD = ) 28 Stun from one blow. Probably will end up taking much less (say 8 Body and 13 Stun on average but I like to illustrate the extremes). So depending on how you want to run it, there are many variations. I find having a Max DC = Max Resistant Defense is a pretty good mix. Sometimes the character will take a fair bit of damage and other times he may take none at all.

 

One other thing I noted is that even slightly tweaking these two settings can have a tremendous impact on how much damage is delivered. My suggestion is to build a couple of characters within a set of guidelines. Say Max DC = 9 and Max rPD/rED = 10. Set the max CV at 8 for both offensive and defensive. Now run it straight (no worries about STR or Hit Locations). Once you get a feel for that, increase the Max DC to 10 and see how much different it is with all the other settings the same. Tinker with those numbers for a little bit to find that "just right" balance.

 

Just remember that Killing Attacks have some sort of Stun Multiplier. Without Hit Locations, the standard is 1d3 x Body Damage. The Hit Location table shows the amount of StunX for each location.

[Alcamtar]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

In the games I've played in, characters typically have 4-8 DEF worth of armor and assorted defenses, maybe up to 12 DEF with magic. Attacks range from 1d6+1 to 2d6, but when combined with STR, skill levels used for damage, talents, and martial arts manevers, the average attack seems to be in the range of 2d6 to 4d6. It's actually quite easy to hit 4d6 or 5d6 with a good combination of abilities, so the GM needs to keep a careful eye on things.

 

On top of that, hit locations can double the BODY damage of an attack. Hit locations allow a 1d6+1 sword to actually damage a plate-armored foe, and change a 3d6 attack from "hurts" to "incapacitates a in a single blow" (plate armor notwithstanding). On the other hand, hit locations can also nullify good damage rolls. They're very swingy.

 

Use hit locations for a bloody game where you want characters to take significant damage from time to time. For a less lethal game, use a 0-5 (1d6-1) STUN multiplier instead of hit locations. This will eliminate the chance of a lucky blow dealing 20-30 BODY, and increase the chance of a 40-50 STUN knockout blow.

 

I don't think HERO does "whittling down" (over multiple fights) very well: it's the cure for the 15 minute adventuring day! On the low side, you can't do enough BODY to get past defenses, and on the high side, you can take someone to zero BODY in a single shot. There is some space between but not a lot, and with only 10-15 BODY it doesn't take many wounds to take you out completely. STUN doesn't work for whittling either because it is recovered very quickly between fights. Healing doesn't change this much. A small amount of healing isn't enough to make a significant difference. A large amount of healing just means that characters recover fully after every fight, eliminating the whittling effect. HERO really seems built around how long you can last in a single combat, with little carryover from one fight to the next.

[yukonhorror]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

my thought right now is to do some number average number crunching with a lot of variables to get it where I want it to be and to get of feel of what's high/normal and what level of def/body/etc... I should suggest to my players and how high I should have stuff for my monsters.

[Markdoc]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

Yeah, to echo what is stated here, Hero system damage - especially at the Heroic level - is designed to be highly variable. In a D20 style game, you can't kill a relatively experienced adventurer with a single hit (even on a critical) unless you have built a funky feat tree: which means opponents more at the PCs level, not minions. So PCs can count on a battle of attrition. In Hero, it is possible to ramp up the damage much more quickly.

 

In my games - I ran the 16th C samurai game noted above - most fights resulted in a few BOD being taken by the PCs. But even that mounts up: if a character collects 6 BOD in the course of a fight, that might reflect three good hits by minion level opponents, or one decent hit from minor boss level opponent - but either way, you're not going to heal it up by resting overnight and it's going to require substantial healing if you take that sort of damage on a regular basis.

 

So there are several ways to approach this.

 

#1. Space your fights out. In the 16th C samurai game, it was rare for the players to face multiple fights in a short period of time: when it did happen it meant that they were at "serious threat level". It doesn't slow the game down any if you say "After the action of the last few days, you are able to rest up at the castle. A month later a messenger comes ...." On the other hand that sort of thing doesn't lend itself to prolonged dungeon-crawling.

 

#2 Balance your threats. If your players are mostly fighting minions with weapons in the 1d6+1 to 1 1/2 d6 range and they have decent armour (6-8 DEF) they are not going to take a lot of BOD - you can whittle them down, with lots of minions or just scratch them with a few. You can keep the threat level up, since it is possible that they will be knocked unconscious and unconscious foes can get stabbed through gaps in their amour - suddenly 1d6+1 is a serious threat, so players can't completely ignore these low level threats. There are also other options - dogpiling PCs, using alternative attacks, etc when you want to serve up more threats, without hauling out the big scary monsters. My rule of thumb where lots of magical defences are not available is that 1 1/2d6 is about the top of the scale for minion level monsters, 2-3d6 is for serious threats, over 3d6 is for when you want to maim people. Of course damage is not the only marker - you also need to look at relative CV. Minions typically have a CV 3 points lower - on average than PCs. Serious threats can be from 2 less to 2 more average CV than PCs and scary monsters usually have higher CVs. The balance of CV affects outcome - a monster with a high OCV, low DCV will possibly hurt one or two PCs, but won't last long unless it really has good defences. A monster with high DCV and low OCV will be a real annoyance, but not a real threat.

 

There are so many options that it is hard to get a single fast rule - my suggestion is to start small and work your way up, so that you get a feel for what works and what doesn't, without killing a lot of PCs.

 

#3 Rebalance healing in your game. You can always change the rules. In my current game I have allowed healers to buy regeneration, usable on others (which is recommended against in the rules) but balanced it by requiring a side effect: the healer takes the damage. That has exactly the effect I want - the healer can heal a large amount of damage in one go, if they need to, but is limited in how much total healing they can offer. It also makes healing a big deal. On the other hand, since healers can augment their own rate of healing, it means that two days rest is enough for the party to get back on it's feet even after a bloody fight: they just can't count on being able to heal their way through multiple fights in a short period of time. Again, as a GM, that gives me good control of the tempo of the game: as long as the healers are OK, a single lucky shot that does a lot of damage is not an adventurer-ender. On the other hand, if I want to challenge the PCs, I can throw foes at them until their "healing reserve" is soaked up, knowing that it will take time to recharge.

 

There are a number of ways you can alter the balance of healing if you want to power it up: just bear in mind that unlike D20 healers, Hero system characters can use their power at-will unless limited.

 

cheers, Mark

[yukonhorror]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

Yeah' date=' to echo what is stated here, Hero system damage - especially at the Heroic level - is [b']designed[/b] to be highly variable. In a D20 style game, you can't kill a relatively experienced adventurer with a single hit (even on a critical) unless you have built a funky feat tree: which means opponents more at the PCs level, not minions. So PCs can count on a battle of attrition. In Hero, it is possible to ramp up the damage much more quickly.

 

In my games - I ran the 16th C samurai game noted above - most fights resulted in a few BOD being taken by the PCs. But even that mounts up: if a character collects 6 BOD in the course of a fight, that might reflect three good hits by minion level opponents, or one decent hit from minor boss level opponent - but either way, you're not going to heal it up by resting overnight and it's going to require substantial healing if you take that sort of damage on a regular basis.

 

So there are several ways to approach this.

 

#1. Space your fights out. In the 16th C samurai game, it was rare for the players to face multiple fights in a short period of time: when it did happen it meant that they were at "serious threat level". It doesn't slow the game down any if you say "After the action of the last few days, you are able to rest up at the castle. A month later a messenger comes ...." On the other hand that sort of thing doesn't lend itself to prolonged dungeon-crawling.

 

#2 Balance your threats. If your players are mostly fighting minions with weapons in the 1d6+1 to 1 1/2 d6 range and they have decent armour (6-8 DEF) they are not going to take a lot of BOD - you can whittle them down, with lots of minions or just scratch them with a few. You can keep the threat level up, since it is possible that they will be knocked unconscious and unconscious foes can get stabbed through gaps in their amour - suddenly 1d6+1 is a serious threat, so players can't completely ignore these low level threats. There are also other options - dogpiling PCs, using alternative attacks, etc when you want to serve up more threats, without hauling out the big scary monsters. My rule of thumb where lots of magical defences are not available is that 1 1/2d6 is about the top of the scale for minion level monsters, 2-3d6 is for serious threats, over 3d6 is for when you want to maim people. Of course damage is not the only marker - you also need to look at relative CV. Minions typically have a CV 3 points lower - on average than PCs. Serious threats can be from 2 less to 2 more average CV than PCs and scary monsters usually have higher CVs. The balance of CV affects outcome - a monster with a high OCV, low DCV will possibly hurt one or two PCs, but won't last long unless it really has good defences. A monster with high DCV and low OCV will be a real annoyance, but not a real threat.

 

There are so many options that it is hard to get a single fast rule - my suggestion is to start small and work your way up, so that you get a feel for what works and what doesn't, without killing a lot of PCs.

 

#3 Rebalance healing in your game. You can always change the rules. In my current game I have allowed healers to buy regeneration, usable on others (which is recommended against in the rules) but balanced it by requiring a side effect: the healer takes the damage. That has exactly the effect I want - the healer can heal a large amount of damage in one go, if they need to, but is limited in how much total healing they can offer. It also makes healing a big deal. On the other hand, since healers can augment their own rate of healing, it means that two days rest is enough for the party to get back on it's feet even after a bloody fight: they just can't count on being able to heal their way through multiple fights in a short period of time. Again, as a GM, that gives me good control of the tempo of the game: as long as the healers are OK, a single lucky shot that does a lot of damage is not an adventurer-ender. On the other hand, if I want to challenge the PCs, I can throw foes at them until their "healing reserve" is soaked up, knowing that it will take time to recharge.

 

There are a number of ways you can alter the balance of healing if you want to power it up: just bear in mind that unlike D20 healers, Hero system characters can use their power at-will unless limited.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

The goal of my initial post was to assess "Do I NEED to rebalance healing." I am defining healing powers for my final fantasy game, and if I made them like those in FF, they would be SUPER expensive or worthless. But, I am planning on doing some serious number crunching and figure out average dam outputs and such.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

The goal of my initial post was to assess "Do I NEED to rebalance healing." I am defining healing powers for my final fantasy game' date=' and if I made them like those in FF, they would be SUPER expensive or worthless. But, I am planning on doing some serious number crunching and figure out average dam outputs and such.[/quote']

 

Has healing in the 6th edition been significantly changed? Because in the 5th edition, Healing could be very effective. Healing just a few points of Body can oftentimes be the difference between life and death. Healing Stun is also not a big deal because Stun comes back pretty fast on its own (unless your character has been knocked to the -50 or beyond zone or has had their Recovery stat drained)

 

I would suggest using a Simplified Healing method (not sure what its called in 6th) where you roll XD6 and count Stun and Body like a Normal Damage attack, but that's how much has been healed. 4D6 or 5D6 of such healing would be pretty effective.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

Healing in 6e has been nerfed by restricting how often it can be used.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

Really?

 

I remember one of the suggestions for limiting healing in 5th Fantasy Hero was 1 healing spell per wound allowed. After that, they have to heal naturally. Is that how its done in 6th?

[Ternaugh]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

Really?

 

I remember one of the suggestions for limiting healing in 5th Fantasy Hero was 1 healing spell per wound allowed. After that, they have to heal naturally. Is that how its done in 6th?

 

That's one of the options under the heading, Tracking Injuries (6e1 233). 6e adds in the ability to reapply a Healing power without penalties (like having to beat the previously rolled number on the dice) after 24 hours (or less, if the interval is reduced with the Decreased Re-use Duration advantage). Simplified Healing is still in there as an option, as well.

 

What I'd probably suggest for the Final Fantasy style game would be to reduce the reapply interval for the healing potions.

 

JoeG

[Hyper-Man]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

The only change I have noticed from 5er to 6e is that it implicitly states that Persistent is not a legal Advantage for Healing (even Self Only), for that use the 'New' Regeneration power.

 

The following was built as a VPP slot for a 6e version of The Flash:

 

0 Superspeed Recovery 9) Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½), Decreased Re-use Duration

(1 Turn; +1 ½), Expanded Effect (x4 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (+1 ½); Limited Power Self Only

(-½), Unified Power (-¼) Real Cost: 33

[Alcamtar]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

My rule of thumb where lots of magical defences are not available is that 1 1/2d6 is about the top of the scale for minion level monsters, 2-3d6 is for serious threats, over 3d6 is for when you want to maim people....

... Minions typically have a CV 3 points lower - on average than PCs. Serious threats can be from 2 less to 2 more average CV than PCs and scary monsters usually have higher CVs....

 

This kind of practical advice is invaluable. I wish this sort of advice were included in the rulebook.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

Healing in 6e has been nerfed by restricting how often it can be used.

 

 

Seems counter to the spirit of things doesn't it?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

Healing was restricted in how often it could be used in 5E. Did it become more restricted?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

I might be misremembering, but I don't recall Healing being restricted in frequency under 5e.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

I might be misremembering' date=' but I don't recall Healing being restricted in frequency under 5e.[/quote']

It was. I don't have the books handy to see if it was at exactly the same levels as 6e but the only obvious thing that was changed is that you can no longer apply Persistent to Healing (which was only needed for Regeneration which is now its own power again).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

I thought it was something like after Healing had reached its maximum effect you could not reapply it for 24 hours or something like that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: how much BODY damage is typically accrued?

 

My recollection was that you had to roll higher than your previous roll to have additional effect. So, if you had 4dd BOD Healing and rolled a 14, that healed 7 BOD. If you then rolled 16, that would heal 1 more BOD 92 more CP). 24 hours was first suggested as the base re-use period in Fantasy Hero. I don't recall whether that was adopted in 5er.

 

Healinbg was definitely restricted in 5e. I've always liked the idea of the reuse duration being reduced if the healed abilities would have recovered naturally, so you get one day as a maximum, but if the Healing healed 20 END, and you would have all your END recovered a few minutes later, the END healing could work again after that.