Help me refine NoNameYet

[Narf the Mouse]

I've got a rough of a character; I'm looking for refinements. Particularly, he's worryingly short on background skills and his build is expensive. In addition, I'm not sure about - Is it common to buy all/most powers up to the AP cap? Plus, general character-building advice.

 

 

Edit: It's noting his Str Minimum for his Warsword as 1-5; it's 13.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

very good whynot call him rangar the fighter

[Markdoc]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

A couple of points: physically he's kind of puny, and his CV is relatively low, even figuring in his martial arts, for a Conan-style fighter. Pretty much any medium-weight hit will stun him - meaning a half-dozen 25 point city guards will take him easily. Most of the guys in my current campaign would clean him up in a fight, VPP not withstanding and they're built on less points - and have a lot sunk into languages and skills.

 

This is because the build is highly inefficient: you are paying a lot for that VPP, but most of the powers in it are attacks, meaning you cannot easily use them together (so no benefit for having a VPP, except when you MPA, and given your CV,you won't want to do that in a fight very often). Essentially, most of the time, you are paying 72 points for the use of a 15 real point power. That's made worse, by the fact that you then pay another 19 points for martial arts - which can't be used with most of your VPP powers, meaning you can use the VPP, the martial arts, but not both. Last of all, a 3-point CSL is either for a tight group (say, swords) or three specific maneuvers (say, strike, block, disarm) with a specific attack. As a GM, I would certainly not accept three point levels applied to any use of 3 different pieces of equipment.

 

Fortunately, we can keep the concept and clean up the build pretty easily.

First off, dump the martial arts. He's a barbarian - he doesn't need no steenkin' poncy maneuvers: he can get by on raw speed and power . That saves you 19 points.

Second, convert the VPP into a multipower - you lose no flexibility, since all your powers are attacks anyway, but you save a metric buttload of points. A 50 point multipower with OIF (weapon of opportunity) and RSR (Combat skill roll will cost you a whopping 25 points, plus 12 for the maneuvers - 37 in total, instead of 72. Personally, I'd drop the combat skill roll (saving you another 13 points) build the MP with OIF (weapon of opportunity) as the only limitation - the reserve would cost you 33 points plus 18 for the slots, for a total of 51. I'd rip out half the 6 points you spent on END (he has an Aid, after all!)

 

That leaves you with 56 points spare. I'd beef the CSLs up to 5 points apiece (costs 8 points), Increase his base OCV and DCV by 2 each (costs 20) Kick up STR by 3 (costs 3) CON by 6 (costs 6), PD and ED by 4 (costs 8) and spend the remaining 11 points on some background skills - if nothing else, a bunch of Barbarian-related skills/FAMs like stealth, survival and tracking. The resulting version hits nearly as hard and hits more often, has a higher DCV, and is far harder to stun in Combat - plus he's quicker to play - you no longer need to make your RSR roll to use your combat maneuvers, and they always work - as it stands, in the draft version, they've a reasonable chance of failing. Also, he has skills!

 

cheers, Mark

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

*Processing* - Let me get back to you on that.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

About the CSL group - My ruling on "A small group" is that three specific weapons is equal to one group like "Swords" or "Axes". I just haven't figured out what specific bow and shield he'll have, so that's left generic right now. So, in full form, it'll be something like "Broadsword, Longbow and Heater Shield".

 

That sufficient?

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

I've updated Mr. NoNameYet - Most of your suggestions seemed good. I'll take more time to personalize him later. And give him more background.

 

Edit: As for the "barbarian" part - I see him focusing more on combat skill and technique than wild rages or blunt attacks.

[Old Man]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

I'll repeat Markdoc's suggestion that you lose the martial arts. As he said, they're expensive, and since you have a multipower you can put maneuver-like slots in there to accomplish almost the same thing, much more cheaply.

 

Also, is that Second Wind power supposed to be able to boost his END and STUN above starting levels, or does it work more like a healing? If the latter, you should be able to get some additional limitations on there; that is a very expensive power. Hell, put some charges or something on there, too.

 

10 PRE seems low for the concept.

[Markdoc]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

About the CSL group - My ruling on "A small group" is that three specific weapons is equal to one group like "Swords" or "Axes". I just haven't figured out what specific bow and shield he'll have, so that's left generic right now. So, in full form, it'll be something like "Broadsword, Longbow and Heater Shield".

 

That sufficient?

 

It's your group, so your call, but no, that wouldn't fly in my game.

 

A 3 point level is only 1 point more than +1 OCV with a single attack, but is far more flexible, so we restrict it to a single, fairly tight group. If it is restricted to "swords" that might look like it covers a lot of swords, but in reality it means the level is restricted to one, limited power - HKA with a specific kind of focus. Moreover, it is pretty unusual for a character to carry multiple swords, so the CSL essentially remains limited to one kind of attack. Expanding it to cover three instances of different items means you are now applying to it to HKA, RKA and DCV, which means instead of using it for two maneuvers and one power (Strike and Block with HKA) you can apply it to Strike and Block with HKA, passive defence and block with shield, passive defence and attack at range with bow. That's a lot of utility, and it covers all the equipment the character uses most frequently. That's actually more useful than a normal 5 point CSL, since that normally applies to either ranged combat or HTH. You suffer relatively little inconvenience using a 3 point level defined so broadly compared to an 8 point level with all combat: the only time you can't use it is if you don't have a bow, shield or broadsword ... in other words, if completely unarmed.

 

So no, I'd never let a 3 point level be defined so broadly.

 

cheers, Mark

[Matt Holck]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

for 10 points of martial arts,

the character can gain cheap DC and DCV + a full move attack

 

4 martial strike +2 DCV +2 DC

4 leaping attack/charge full move attack +v/5 target falls -1 DCV

2 weapon elements sword and shield

[Markdoc]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

for 10 points of martial arts,

the character can gain cheap DC and DCV + a full move attack

 

4 martial strike +2 DCV +2 DC

4 leaping attack/charge full move attack +v/5 target falls -1 DCV

2 weapon elements sword and shield

 

All of that's true, but the character as written, has a low DCV, a low DEX (meaning he goes last in a fight) and doesn't have the physical stats to take much punishment: as it stands, he's a glass cannon - lots of hit, relatively little defence. And if he has to rely on his martial arts to boost his DCV, he can only use strikes - meaning he can't use that big expensive multipower. I seriously doubt he'd last through even a warm-up fight in most games, simply because he's really easy to hit and really easy to stun - and once stunned he's at 0 DCV, meaning anyone else around him gets a free easy kill. (Though the current version is an improvement in that regard).

 

Basically, my thoughts go like this: the character has devoted a big chunk of his points to his sword style multipower. That being the case, he should logically be built to allow him to use it as much as possible. The 19 points sunk into martial arts not only don't help him use him multipower at all - they actually inhibit its use, because he needs the DCV from his martial strikes - but if he uses them, he can't use the multipower. If he uses the multipower, he gets no benefit from the martial strikes and has a DCV that screams "Target boy!"

 

cheers, Mark

[Matt Holck]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

can he buy his multipower as a martial arts weapon element?

would the existing waepon elements cover the use by the multipower?

[Markdoc]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

You don't need weapon elements for a multipower, nor do they add anything to it. Weapon elements are only for martial arts. Likewise, you can't add your martial arts to your multipower: they're completely different things.

 

cheers, Mark

[Matt Holck]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

I can add 2 DC to those multipower slots or buy +2 DCV and use that while using the multipower.

Martial arts modify can a base attack weather that's a strength or an energy bolt.

I did hear that the same martial arts can't be applied to both ranged and hand to hand attacks.

[Markdoc]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

I can add 2 DC to those multipower slots or buy +2 DCV and use that while using the multipower.

Martial arts modify can a base attack weather that's a strength or an energy bolt.

I did hear that the same martial arts can't be applied to both ranged and hand to hand attacks.

 

You can't add martial arts DCs to anything you feel like, sorry.

 

From page 101, 6E2 " Each Extra DC adds one Damage Class to any Maneuver (such as Martial Strike, Killing Strike, or Martial Throw)". DCs bought with martial arts add to that maneuver, not just anything you like. How are you going to do a martial strike with an Ego Attack? Or an Aid? Likewise weapon elements apply specifically to weapons, and in a heroic game, only to weapons you buy WF with (page 93, 6E2). There's no such thing as "WF: multipower", nor is there any suggestion anywhere in the martial arts rules that martial maneuvers bonuses or DCs can be applied to powers: which makes sense, of course - they are explicitly described as skills. You can't combine "martial strike" with "Invisible Power Effects (Inobvious to [sight and Hearing Groups]; +1/2) for up to 60 Active Points" - it's a skill. It doesn't have any active points. It's why there's no discussion about "adjustment powers vs martial arts" in the rules either - you don't Drain or Aid skills. Finally, in the Ultimate Martial Artist (page 99-103) different ways of building martial arts are discussed, including building martial arts with powers and power frameworks. Nowhere is it suggested you can combine the two - in fact the rules explicitly forbid it: you can't buy a power outside a multipower and then add it to different slots in the multipower (6E1, page 399) or use it by itself. You can only add to a multipower slot if you have bought the power only to add to that one slot and nothing else.

 

So no, it's not rules legal to combine martial arts and multipowers. I don't see a reason a GM couldn't make a house rule to allow it if he was feeling really, really nice (though that means in you could also buy martial arts for spells, which seems a bit odd), but it's certainly not rules-legal, nor particularly balanced.

 

You can buy DCV by itself - in fact, I specifically recommended that he did so - but that's a whole different thang.

 

cheers, Mark

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

It's your group, so your call, but no, that wouldn't fly in my game.

 

A 3 point level is only 1 point more than +1 OCV with a single attack, but is far more flexible, so we restrict it to a single, fairly tight group. If it is restricted to "swords" that might look like it covers a lot of swords, but in reality it means the level is restricted to one, limited power - HKA with a specific kind of focus. Moreover, it is pretty unusual for a character to carry multiple swords, so the CSL essentially remains limited to one kind of attack. Expanding it to cover three instances of different items means you are now applying to it to HKA, RKA and DCV, which means instead of using it for two maneuvers and one power (Strike and Block with HKA) you can apply it to Strike and Block with HKA, passive defence and block with shield, passive defence and attack at range with bow. That's a lot of utility, and it covers all the equipment the character uses most frequently. That's actually more useful than a normal 5 point CSL, since that normally applies to either ranged combat or HTH. You suffer relatively little inconvenience using a 3 point level defined so broadly compared to an 8 point level with all combat: the only time you can't use it is if you don't have a bow, shield or broadsword ... in other words, if completely unarmed.

 

So no, I'd never let a 3 point level be defined so broadly.

 

cheers, Mark

...That never occurred to me. I was thinking "specific weapons", not "power types".

All of that's true, but the character as written, has a low DCV, a low DEX (meaning he goes last in a fight) and doesn't have the physical stats to take much punishment: as it stands, he's a glass cannon - lots of hit, relatively little defence. And if he has to rely on his martial arts to boost his DCV, he can only use strikes - meaning he can't use that big expensive multipower. I seriously doubt he'd last through even a warm-up fight in most games, simply because he's really easy to hit and really easy to stun - and once stunned he's at 0 DCV, meaning anyone else around him gets a free easy kill. (Though the current version is an improvement in that regard).

 

Basically, my thoughts go like this: the character has devoted a big chunk of his points to his sword style multipower. That being the case, he should logically be built to allow him to use it as much as possible. The 19 points sunk into martial arts not only don't help him use him multipower at all - they actually inhibit its use, because he needs the DCV from his martial strikes - but if he uses them, he can't use the multipower. If he uses the multipower, he gets no benefit from the martial strikes and has a DCV that screams "Target boy!"

 

cheers, Mark

It also never occurred to me that the MP essentially replaced martial manuevers for him.

 

I'll be making some changes...

[Matt Holck]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

I'm not talking about the additional dc added to martial maneuvers

I mean using a power with a martial maneuver.

Martial arts maneuvers can't be added to other maneuvers like haymaker, sweep or move through.

but I understand the haymaker maneuver can be used on almost any power so why not martial maneuvers?

[Markdoc]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

...That never occurred to me. I was thinking "specific weapons"' date=' not "power types".[/quote']

 

Right. But "sword" is just a special effect. If you carried 6 different swords, all you'd have is 1-2d6 HKA (and a bunch of useless encumbrance )

 

It also never occurred to me that the MP essentially replaced martial manuevers for him.

 

I'll be making some changes...

 

If you want to look here, you can find martial maneuvers adapted for multipowers

 

You'd need GM permission to use most of these manuevers, since they include CSLs, but they are rules-legal. This is the old 5th Ed. version, courtesy of the wayback machine (since my site went away) but it should be trivial to convert them.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

I'm not talking about the additional dc added to martial maneuvers

I mean using a power with a martial maneuver.

Martial arts maneuvers can't be added to other maneuvers like haymaker, sweep or move through.

but I understand the haymaker maneuver can be used on almost any power so why not martial maneuvers?

 

 

Because the rules specifically say they can't?

 

And the rules do say that they can't. They specifically differentiate between martial arts and haymakers in the adding damage section - you can haymaker a martial maneuver or a simple power, but you can't haymaker a power to which you can also add a martial maneuver. There is a good design reason for this. There are a number of limitations on what you can and can't add to multipower slots and on permitted advantages/limitations and on how you can use the powers. These all reflect the fact that you get a big price discount, so they are not as flexible as simple powers bought straight.

 

There are also limitations on martial arts for exactly the same reason. If you try and price out pretty much any maneuver, you'll find it costs more to build it as a power than it does to buy the maneuver. But the vast majority of maneuvers are pretty much the same - some DCs + some CSLs, in different combinations, so buying them as straight powers is grossly inefficient cost-wise. If you had to buy a decent range of maneuvers at full cost, it would be impossible to build a usable martial artist on the same points as other characters, because you would be buying DCs plus levels over and over again. The solution was the current martial arts system, which is a sort of framework - you get your "powers" at a substantial price break, but that is countered by the requirement to buy at least 10 points worth plus the fact that most characters will have more than 10 points worth: the more you buy, the more redundancy eats away at your cost break. The break-even point is around 20 points of martial arts maneuvers.

 

So what you are suggesting is allowing people to buy a sort-of framework (for which they get a price break) and using it to boost another framework - for which they also got a price break. That's unbalanced and not surprisingly, not permitted. You can of course buy CSLs straight and use them at the same time as either framework, but that's OK, because now you are paying full price ... and that's what I recommended he do.

 

cheers, Mark

[Ice9]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

So no, it's not rules legal to combine martial arts and multipowers. I don't see a reason a GM couldn't make a house rule to allow it if he was feeling really, really nice (though that means in you could also buy martial arts for spells, which seems a bit odd), but it's certainly not rules-legal, nor particularly balanced.

I'm not quite sure about this. I mean, if a character had this:

 

Ancestral Crystal Sword - HKA 1d6+1, Armor Piercing, [Normal Weapon Advantages/Limitations]

WF: Swords

Weapon Element: Swords

 

Then they would be able to use the sword with their martial arts, correct? So what if they had this instead:

 

Ancestral Weapons - Multipower, Requires Visit to Castle to Switch Slots

1) Crystal Sword - HKA 1d6+1, Armor Piercing, [Normal Weapon Advantages/Limitations]

2) Adamant Hammer - HKA 2d6, Double Knockback, [Normal Weapon Advantages/Limitations]

3) Dragontooth Spear - HKA 1d6, Penetrating, [Normal Weapon Advantages/Limitations]

WF: Sword, Hammer, Spear

Weapon Element: Sword, Hammer, Spear (NOTE: Each bought separately, not trying to claim it as one category)

 

Would they no longer be able to use their martial arts with their weapons?

[Markdoc]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

I'm not quite sure about this. I mean, if a character had this:

 

Ancestral Crystal Sword - HKA 1d6+1, Armor Piercing, [Normal Weapon Advantages/Limitations]

WF: Swords

Weapon Element: Swords

 

Then they would be able to use the sword with their martial arts, correct? So what if they had this instead:

 

Ancestral Weapons - Multipower, Requires Visit to Castle to Switch Slots

1) Crystal Sword - HKA 1d6+1, Armor Piercing, [Normal Weapon Advantages/Limitations]

2) Adamant Hammer - HKA 2d6, Double Knockback, [Normal Weapon Advantages/Limitations]

3) Dragontooth Spear - HKA 1d6, Penetrating, [Normal Weapon Advantages/Limitations]

WF: Sword, Hammer, Spear

Weapon Element: Sword, Hammer, Spear (NOTE: Each bought separately, not trying to claim it as one category)

 

Would they no longer be able to use their martial arts with their weapons?

 

It's a good example, actually - by RAW, no, they would not be able to use it: the rules specifically don't allow modifying multipower slots in the same way that you can modify single powers - which is reasonable, because you are getting a 90% discount on the cost of every slot after the first.

 

But as a GM, I'd consider allowing that one, simply because it is restricted to modifications of a single power: HKA and the way you have built it precludes it being a swiss-army knife power*. It's definitely way out there in GM's option territory, but doesn't strike me as abusive - and I'd allow it only after pointing out to the character that it was not rule slegal and I was allowing it only because it was well-designed for game balance. That would put him on notice that if he started started adding on other powers, I'd go with RAW and say no, purely on game balance reasons.

 

Here's a counter example - Ancestralweaponsguy is allowed to use his MP with martial arts. His buddy builds Awesomekipowersguy who has a MP with various Aids, Flight, Barrier, HKA and RKA, defined as a martial art. Should he be able to use martial arts with it to get a cheap boost? If you answer yes, a variety of pretty abusive builds are permitted, since you are giving the character two stacking price breaks - letting him add cheap levels and DCs onto cheap slots. If you answer no, you are in the unfortunate position of saying "special effects define how a power works mechanically". After all, if Ancestralweaponsguy can use martial arts with his multipower, shouldn't Blowsstuffupguy be able to use a ranged martial art with his spells multipower?

 

I always start with examining the mechanics of a power before I look at special effect. So it's not "a sword". It's "HKA 1d6+1, Armor Piercing - special effect, sword"

 

cheers, Mark

 

*Good example - guy who built a magic sword that had a blade that turned into a lightning bolt (sort of a fantasy light saber). In blade form it was decent sized HKA. In lightning form, it was an AVLD that ignored most resistant defences. So if they have good resistant def, use the lightning - if they don't, use the blade.

[Badger]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

One thing I want to mention is I personally think VPPs are kind of "last resorts" they should only be used if the EC or MP arent really applicable for what you are going for. (course it also factors in for me, that I do kind of suck with creating VPPs, for some reason. ) Just my opinion.

[Markdoc]

Re: Help me refine NoNameYet

 

Everyone has their opinion, but personally I prefer VPPs to EC (not that we have the EC option in 6E, anyway ) VPPs are good for simulating a broad category of powers or even a single type of power with a lot of applications.

 

cheers, Mark