Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

[randian]

That is, Resistant Mental, Flash, or Power defense? Heretofore I have not, seeing it as generally overpriced as applied to those types of defenses (+1/4 would have been OK) and of low general utility, though the potential for getting slapped with a Drain that completely ignores my Power Defense (Sorry buddy, only RESISTANT Power Defense is good enough to stop me!) for only +1/2 is rather scary. That, along with the splitting of Impenetrable from Hardened (implying the introduction of a third mechanic will require yet another advantage to defend against), lends defense design in 6E a certain rock/paper/scissors quality to it.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

Generally speaking, no. Most of the reason is that buying AVADs that are only stopped by Hardened Flash/Mental/Power Defense is widely considered to be a power-gaming tactic, and is rarely allowed by the GMs I play with. The other is that AVADs against exotic defenses are extremely expensive, and therefore low-power and rare. It's more effective to put points into more STUN/END/BODY or buy powers with the, "Difficult to Dispel" Advantage.

[randian]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

Did you mean "Resistant" where you said "Hardened"? I've at least seen Hardened Flash Defense before, whereas this new category of "Resistant Flash Defense" seems to have no real purpose since Killing AVADs don't do Body and their stun is stopped by non-Resistant defense just fine.

 

I know that the attacker is almost always better off buying more dice than they are buying Armor Piercing or AVAD vs Rare Defense.

 

Personally, I'd rather buy defense than play a guessing game as to which characteristic is going to be Drained and putting points in it. I'm also not sure buying more Body (for example) is better. What would you rather have, an extra 10 Body or Impenetrable when a Penetrating Killing Attack comes around? That Body buffer looks mighty shallow, especially since it doesn't add to Stun anymore.

 

I've never seen anybody buy "Difficult to Dispel". Not once. Buying Power Defense was usually better.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

I have never used resistant Flash or Power Defense, but resistant Mental defense is not unheard of, mostly because we have a number of psychotic mentalists with Does BDY Mental attacks. Generally though the amount of resistant Mental Def was low (2 to 6 points) because by the time you add Does BDY to any mental attack the cost becomes high enough that the number of dice is small. I should also note that all the resistant Mental Def we use requires END -- essentially the defender has to make a conscious effort to shield his mind.

 

I have never used Hardened or Impenetrable for unusual defenses either because unusual attacks are almost never AP or Penetrating. Why pay for an advantage like that when most people aren't going to have the defense in the first place? Now that AP in 6e is only +1/4 it might be worth it, but it hasn't happened yet. Any use of those advantages on unusual attacks would be for plot device purposes anyway as far as I am concerned.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

I generally don't see a need for resistant alternate defenses. Even buying Does Body on a EGO attack just effectively turns it into a Blast (Normal damage) and the plain defense should be enough. It would only be in the case of some really exotic attack like Killing Attack bought with the AVAD Resistant Mental/Flash/Power Defense and Does Body where this would be necessary. As mentioned by Indiana Joe, this is straight up power gaming (IMO).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

The only one we've ever used was Resistant Mental Defense, for much the same reason Ockhan's Spoon related.

[Ice9]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

Resistant Mental Defense, I could see, as things like RKA, AVAD (MD), Does Body are sometimes used for particularly deadly psychic attacks, or Scanners-style head exploding.

Resistant Flash or Power Defense though? While you could have an AVAD that works against those, at that point you're just as likely to see a NND-type AVAD that has no standard defense.

 

I've never seen Armor Piercing or Penetrating on Flash either. Since there's always the possibility of someone having unusual senses, trying to get an always-effective Flash seems a bit pointless.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

My preference would be to explicitly state that exotic defenses lack any "resistant" counterpart (ie they are always "resistant") and avoid the issue.

 

I have, however, seen AP Flash attacks in the past, largely to get around characters buying 5 points' sight flash defense. With 5e changing Flash from 10 points counted in phases to 5 points counted in segments, however, the issue went away.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

Not sure you could put Penetrating on Flash anyway, since you already count the "Normal Body" of the dice to determine the effect. AP would work, but...well, I usually use Flash for flavoring anyway, myself; it's a heck of a lot of points to throw into something in order to use, "Okay guys, I'm going to Flash him; delay all your Phases so we can pop him in the 3 seconds he's blinded, at least if he doesn't have some kind of unusual sense..." tactics. (I was against the change from Phases to Segments. Flash seems a bit pointless now. IMO Flashing someone should be difficult--there should be some kind of threshold like for Mental Powers--but should be effective, and have some chance of lasting a while).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

I generally permit regular Power/Mental/Flash defense to apply to AVLD attacks, so it would be a waste of points.

[randian]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

Not sure you could put Penetrating on Flash anyway' date=' since you already count the "Normal Body" of the dice to determine the effect.[/quote']

That's correct, it's explicitly prohibited.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

Not sure you could put Penetrating on Flash anyway' date=' since you already count the "Normal Body" of the dice to determine the effect. AP would work, but...well, I usually use Flash for flavoring anyway, myself; it's a heck of a lot of points to throw into something in order to use, "Okay guys, I'm going to Flash him; delay all your Phases so we can pop him in the 3 seconds he's blinded, at least if he doesn't have some kind of unusual sense..." tactics. (I was [i']against[/i] the change from Phases to Segments. Flash seems a bit pointless now. IMO Flashing someone should be difficult--there should be some kind of threshold like for Mental Powers--but should be effective, and have some chance of lasting a while).

 

It also became half as expensive per die. Going with my personal standard, 30 points with AE Radius or Cone, you get, on average, 3 phases of Flash or six Segments of Flash, either of which is more than enough time to take advantage of the situation. Plus, someone who drops the minimum 5 points of Sight Flash Def is still affected by the latter on an average roll, whereas you'd need to roll 3 sixes for any effect in the former instance.

 

It also always seemed weird to me that someone's reflexes determined how quicky they recovered from someone popping a flashbulb in their face.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

It also always seemed weird to me that someone's reflexes determined how quicky they recovered from someone popping a flashbulb in their face.

Really? It always seemed perfectly natural to me. If you do just about everything else faster, why not recover your senses faster too?

[randian]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

It also became half as expensive per die.

That change turned Flash from "rarely effective" to "almost always effective". It's very expensive to defend yourself against Flash now. Hopefully nobody will be suckered into buying Resistant Protection: Flash Defense.

[Escafarc]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

In my group's Superheroic games hardly anyone takes Flash as a major power anymore since the change from phases to segments. In our Heroic level games it comes up more offen.

[randian]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

In my group's Superheroic games hardly anyone takes Flash as a major power anymore since the change from phases to segments.

Why? The segment-based Flash is much more likely to get through since it has so many more dice.

[Escafarc]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

Why? The segment-based Flash is much more likely to get through since it has so many more dice.

 

In practice flashing someone for a few segments as oppose to phases wasn't worth the points but that could just be our style of play. I think I'll workout some other mechanic if one of my players wants a Flash attack in the future.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

We use Flash in our Champions game, not a lot, but it's a viable tactic in the bag of tricks. Against most enemies we get a nearly uninterrupted Phase (they can try something...) but not much more than 1 Phase. Of course, we only ever need that one phase to gain the upper hand in a fight so it works out nicely.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

While I generally agree with the sentiment so far there are sfx cases where it makes sense for a character to buy Resistant on exotic defenses.

 

From my version of Black Canary

 

6 Hearing Group Flash Defense (5 points), Hardened (+1/4) (6 Active Points)

2 Damage Resistance (5 Flash Def.), Hardened (+1/4)

I based this in part on her fight near the end of the JLU episode Grudge Match with the character Sonar: .

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS1iYemxNFE&feature=related

[dmjalund]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

that may be sound based, but I'd still have it as a standard blast linked to a sonic flash

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

In my group's Superheroic games hardly anyone takes Flash as a major power anymore since the change from phases to segments. In our Heroic level games it comes up more offen.

 

I find that result odd. I would have thought the reverse would be the case. A 12 DC Flash in 4e would be 6d6, phases, so a 6 SPD character was blind for a turn. If he had 5 Flash Defense, he was blind for a phase, and 10 Flash Defense neutralized the attack. A 12 DC Flash in 5e would be 12d6, phases, so a 6 SPD character was still blind for a turn. If he had 5 Flash Defense, he was blind for three or four phases, and 10 Flash Defense still left him blind for one phase.

 

The lower the SPD, the more the change operated to the advantage of the defender, so in heroic games, duration of a Flash typically declined more than in a Supers game. However, from your comments, your group is getting the reverse result. I'm curious why.

[JmOz]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

On the core issue. I will buy it for MD on occasion, and on a few occasions bought ifor Flash Defence (especialy Sight when a player had a RKA AVLD)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

On the core issue. I will buy it for MD on occasion' date=' and on a few occasions bought ifor Flash Defence (especialy Sight [b']when a player had a RKA AVLD[/b])

 

Emphasis added. So, basically, only to thwart the player's purchase of a power that otherwise might have been overpowered, making it an arm's race of sorts rather than an ability purchased due to character concept.

 

I don't see a need for resistant exotic defenses if they exist only to counter a player who wants an attack that works against something "less common" than a standard exotic defense. rPD and rED have "real world" context - tough boxers are not bulletproof. How does one conceptually differentiate between an Ego Attack that Does BOD and an RKA AVAD Mental Defense? Given that, I think the simple approach is simply to rule that exotic defenses are always "resistant", and eliminate the issue.

 

I suppose that leaves the door open to someone demaning a limitation because their exotic defense is non-resistant, but such a limitation can't reasonably be worth more than -1/4, and just taking the limitation practicaly demands there be attacks that work vs that resistant defense.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

The point I was trying to make is that if it is part of a character's concept to have an ultimate effect x (Black Canary's cry was just an example) and the GM thinks he may introduce other characters with a similar sfx (Sonar's gun in the animated) it is easier imo to just buy the defenses to most variances of effect x instead of using personal immunity which is usually more expensive and less well defined. Remember, we are talking about 5-10 points max here.

[Escafarc]

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

 

I find that result odd. I would have thought the reverse would be the case. A 12 DC Flash in 4e would be 6d6, phases, so a 6 SPD character was blind for a turn. If he had 5 Flash Defense, he was blind for a phase, and 10 Flash Defense neutralized the attack. A 12 DC Flash in 5e would be 12d6, phases, so a 6 SPD character was still blind for a turn. If he had 5 Flash Defense, he was blind for three or four phases, and 10 Flash Defense still left him blind for one phase.

 

The lower the SPD, the more the change operated to the advantage of the defender, so in heroic games, duration of a Flash typically declined more than in a Supers game. However, from your comments, your group is getting the reverse result. I'm curious why.

 

Because just about everyone in a Super's game has access to Flash DEF and in a Heroic level game almost no one has it.