Learning the Heroes System

[Kalanth]

Recently my regular RPG group decided to switch gears away from D&D, the game we have been playing the last 6 years, and move into a new realm of game. With much convincing I managed to get them to agree to play in a Classic Marvel Super Heroes campaign, but in the midst of that I remembered about The Hero System and thought to myself that it might be a viable option.

 

Now, however, I am beginning to look around and starting to wonder if I would be stepping in over my head. I have gamed for nearly 30 years now, and in that time have played many different systems each with their own challenges, but the first flip through the books for the Hero System have me stepping back. Just how easy is this system to learn and run, and in that regard, how easy is it to teach? I am not opposed to running a complex system, but considering how much my players love 4th ed D&D I am not confident in how much they would love a complicated system. Coupled with the fact that they are mostly inexperienced gamers (only one of them has played a previous system, and that was 2nd ed D&D so not much of a stretch from the current).

 

Any advice I should have before I delve into this endevour? I really want to try the system, but I don't want to overwhelm my group just because I think the system is awesome.

 

P.S. - If it matters, the rule set I purchased was 6th edition.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

I suggest starting with some pre-generated characters and introducing them to game play rather that character creation. The actual playing of the game is not that complex, especially when you leave out most or all of the optional rules until people are used to the basics.

 

Character creation isn't in truth all that complex either, but it can appear that way because 1.) it'll be way different from any other system you have tried, and 2.) it is very open-ended and there are an infinite number of choices, without any real solid guidelines or directed paths to follow. So I think seeing some pre-generated characters and powers and getting used to how they work will be a good introduction and motivator to learn how the generation works.

[torchwolf]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

You might find this free document useful, especially as a handout to players:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/77944-Hero-In-Two-Pages-Complete

 

Though not necessary, if you intend to run a Classic Marvel game, you might want to have a look at the Champions 6E book and Champions Powers, both of which feature ready-made builds using the Hero system. It might save you much time if you're using Marvel characters - Champions Powers even have a Unimind power built.

 

There are several websites you might also have use for, all of which are also maintained by long-time members of these boards (such as Ghost-Archer, HyperMan, Killershrike, Susano, many others).

 

I'll now leave the presentations of their sites to these distinguished gentlemen

[Wolf]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

Another option you might want to look at is the Hero System Basic book (Linked for your convenience), This is the simplest and most "boiled down" of the rules, and it's in an affordable format.

 

This may be one of the better options for you, it'll get a lot of the more verbose explanations out of the way, so you can get to the gist of the system and play, get into all the optional stuff later, as you learn the system. Torchwolf is right, that two page handout is awesome for a resource...

 

The member maintained external sites are a great resource... you can grab comic NPC's off those, re-tool them for your playstyle (as has been said before, there is a lot of freedom in Hero, so everyone has a little different take on things, and you'll see even different opinions on how to make a Pizza Oven, even).

 

Most importantly, ask, we are a pretty generous board here, and we enjoy to help, and introduce our beloved system to others.

[mattingly]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

I recommend perusing the Player Finder forum on these boards, and find a group in your area that's willing to run a demo game for your crew.

[Kalanth]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

Thanks for the link and the good information, and that is a great idea I have never thought of Mattingly. I am really looking forward to running this system and I hope my players are just as pleased with it as I am.

[Beast]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

getting Hero designer 3 and setting it for the Basic rules only will help greatly in character building

[Kalanth]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

Well, my first real question is based on a comment I heard from someone else but it did get me curious. That person mentioned that in 5th edition the Phase / Turn system really bogged down combat when you had a larger number of combatants in the encounter. Does that remain true in 6th edition and are there ways to avoid such an issue? From my days with D&D I am accustomed to one round with a limited number of actions, but it seems that a "round" in Heros is much more involved.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

Combat hasn't changed, so yes, it does bog down a bit when there are large numbers of combatants. However, the same would be true of any system.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

A great deal depends on what you consider to be a "round". A HERO Turn is 12 seconds which is actually a smaller time interval than earlier versions of the D&D Round.

 

I think that if everyone (GM's & Players) got into the habit of considering the HERO Turn as the "default round" of combat with the number of discreet actions defined by the Phases it could speed up combat. This would require everyone to fight the urge to micro-manage every possible Phase level action and get into a Turn-based combat decision flow. Keeping everyone's characters at the same Speed score (unless it is intrinsic to the concept; ie: Speedsters and some Martial Artists) could also help encourage this behavior.

 

Of course, I have yet to game with a group willing to do this...

[torchwolf]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

Hero System combat is fairly cinematic in style, so describing actions and only then breaking the game effects down into Actions generally works well.

 

A very detailed analysis of Hero System combat can be found here (although written for 5th Edition, it also applies to 6th Edition, even through a few new optional rules, notably Maneuvers, are introduced in 6th Edition):

http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHero/HERO5CombatTactics.aspx

http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHero/HERO5ActionAdvantage.aspx

 

General collection of Hero System Resources:

http://www.herogames.com/links.htm?category=

 

Other than that, it can generally be noted that:

 

A) Advantages in SPD (especially of +2 or more SPD) puts opponents in a position of having to react more than taking initiative, even if cleverly used Held Actions can mitigate this to some extent. This can be offset by B or C to some extent, though.

 

Numerical superiority can be devastatingly effective in Hero System combat, assuming the opponents are well matched in CVs, attacks, and defenses. The superior numbers will quickly wear characters down assuming equal abilities.

 

C) Differences in CV of more than 4 generally causes outclassing, which can allow PCs to wipe the floor with legions of opponents at that level. Good for letting PCs show off occasionally.

 

 

Run a few test combats lasting a Turn or so, using sample characters from Chapter 8 in Volume 2. To speed it up, you could assume everyone rolls an 11 on 3d6 rolls, and a 3 on every "effect" d6.

 

You could also try this with a number of "average individuals" from Chapter 10, Volume 1 to get a sense of the balance levels.

 

Finally, 6E2 (Volume Two) 52 gives you "Nine Ways To Speed Up Combat".

[Escafarc]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

I've never had a problem with combat "bogging down" with large numbers (back in high school(80-83) our group had 10 to 13 people show up most gamedays.

[Rapier]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

I think that if everyone (GM's & Players) got into the habit of considering the HERO Turn as the "default round" of combat with the number of discreet actions defined by the Phases it could speed up combat. This would require everyone to fight the urge to micro-manage every possible Phase level action and get into a Turn-based combat decision flow. Keeping everyone's characters at the same Speed score (unless it is intrinsic to the concept; ie: Speedsters and some Martial Artists) could also help encourage this behavior.

 

Of course, I have yet to game with a group willing to do this...

 

My group does and is. We matched SPDs on purpose. I do have to say that it certainly does make combats more equal and less confusing. With differing SPDs, it invariably happens that someone takes an action only to find out "OOPS! Phase 4? I thought this was Phase 5. Undo what I just did." Of course, better tracking could alleviate that but it is not uncommon. I also like the way it opens up the possibilities and makes it easier to coordinate. In Champions, you would frequently run into the 'Yes, we can coordinate so I'll just hold onto this action for a couple of phases until you get your chance to go." And it seems that half the time something would occur that would force the holding character to burn the hold.

 

My campaign is Heroic, so it's easier for everyone to have the same SPD.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

In my experience, the Speed Chart actually makes things very smooth. Now getting used to a new system of "initiative" can bog things down for a while, but once you get the hang of it and figure out how you are going to track things, it goes very well.

[Spence]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

In my experience' date=' the Speed Chart actually makes things very smooth. Now getting [i']used to[/i] a new system of "initiative" can bog things down for a while, but once you get the hang of it and figure out how you are going to track things, it goes very well.

 

Like P, I too have found that the Speed chart actually speeds things up.

 

Remember also that unlike many other games, everything you need for each character is on the character sheet. No need to endlessly flip through books, cards etc to plan a move. My last couple hero teaching games ran much much faster than the neighboring D&D4th game. While my players just described what they wanted to do and then did it, the D&D4 guys were endlessly flipping through card decks to figure out what their character was allowed to do. My players had a single 1 page sheet, but the D&D4th guys had to contend with multi page character sheets and 2 or three decks apiece.

 

In the end though I believe game speed is not as much the system as it is familiarity with the system.

 

 

on a side note, what is with all those decks in the new D&D?

[Drake2000]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

To keep track of Phases, I've always just used a D12, turning it from 1-2-3-etc. and announcing the new Phase with each turn.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

on a side note' date=' what is with all those decks in the new D&D?[/quote']

 

They're just a way to keep all of your character info in one place, as opposed to scattered through 2 (or more) books. IIRC, they were originally a player creation.

[Kalanth]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

on a side note' date=' what is with all those decks in the new D&D?[/quote']

 

I have the Character Builder for 4th ed so we just had the powers printed out each time we updated a character. Course, by the time you hit 30th level you have a nearly 10 page long character sheet and that made for a pain in the posterior as well...

 

I am going to play around with the suggestions here and if I come across something else I will swing on back and ask. I am beyond thrilled with the community and their friendly and outgoing attitudes. Thanks all!

[Lucius]

Re: Learning the Heroes System

 

My suggestions:

 

Character creation is what scares people about Hero. So start with pregenerated . Either make up characters you think your friends will like, or ask them for ideas and create for them.

 

On a similar note, give each character two sheets. One for bookkeeping - the one with the costs and Power constructs spelled out – and one for play, with only the rolls to make and how many dice to roll and a plain language description of effects.

 

You can find a lot of ready made characters online, and you can always start threads – I remember one called “Make me a fighter!” that got a lot of characters submitted. At the very least, you'll get ideas, if not whole characters that fit your needs.

 

Start heroic, not superheroic. Lower point totals will make things a little simpler, and you can more easily keep everyone's SPD the same. Just give all player characters SPD of 3. If you make mooks like goblins or muggers only SPD 2 the players will feel nicely superior when they see how one extra action a turn helps them dominate combat. When they finally face a foe with SPD 4 they should be impressed with that opponent's speed and skill.

 

Buy down their Movement Powers. Most heroic level characters should buy DOWN Running if not Swimming. People forget that when you buy up SPD your ground speed goes up too, and is it really a necessary part of your character to be half again as fast as the average person? You can buy Running down and STILL outrun most “normal humans.” (This isn't really an important detail, but it's a pet peeve of mine and I'm taking this opportunity to air it.)

 

You've been playing with these people for a while, so you know what they like. Maybe this guy wants to play druids and obviously loves changing into animal forms. That one likes being an illusionist when he's not playing a ninja or thief type and obviously loves being able to trick or mystify people. And the combat wombat loves it when he wades into a crowd of enemies and emerges victorious despite being outnumbered 5 to 1. Not only can you build to suit them, you can eliminate any elements they found irksome or restrictive – like, one wanted to play magic users but never liked the “fire and forget” rule that restricted how many spells he could cast in a day. Making spells work off of END rather than charges might be a big turn on for such a person. Just remember to keep things simple – the shapeshifter should probably have only one animal form, at least to start with, and one that's not overpowering.

 

Oh, one more suggestion to make things easier for you – robots, undead, and other “automatons.” There is a danger of making them too overpowering – do NOT go overboard on their defenses – but putting their STR, Movement, and Powers on Charges, or making them 0 END, and giving them the “Takes no STUN” power, means you have much less bookkeeping to track these kinds of enemies. You probably can't use them ALL the time, but taking on a horde of low powered animated skeletons is a viable first adventure combat.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

House of the Palindromedary