Armor Wars

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Armor Wars

 

Stilt Man, Cobalt Man, Firebrand I, Rampage, Grizzly...

Seriously, dude. Thousands of people who can do it is not an exaggeration. Arguing that these armours are second-best or third-best, or whatever, down to Iron Duck and the Slasher is just evading the point that they are still better than regular infantry, and mostly better than having a tank. You haven't even come close to making me understand why the whole 82nd Airborne isn't running around in Guardsmen suits.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Armor Wars

 

only that as already mentoed the feel it will make the hero's world to sci fi and unrelatable

[bobooton]

Re: Armor Wars

 

Stilt Man, Cobalt Man, Firebrand I, Rampage, Grizzly...

Seriously, dude. Thousands of people who can do it is not an exaggeration. Arguing that these armours are second-best or third-best, or whatever, down to Iron Duck and the Slasher is just evading the point that they are still better than regular infantry, and mostly better than having a tank. You haven't even come close to making me understand why the whole 82nd Airborne isn't running around in Guardsmen suits.

 

Lots of those and more are b-grade armors, Turtle armor at best. Stark builds and sells the Guardsman armor, so that explains part of why the entire military isn't so equipped. Starktech had to be stolen to create dozens of armored villains out there (Spymaster working for Hammer), so they weren't capable of this on their own. Crimson Dynamo, Titanium Man, Force, Mauler, the Raiders, the Controller, the Beetle, the Mandroids, the Guardsmen, Firepower, and even Stilt-Man all fall under that umbrella, plus many more. None of that happens without Stark and none of that happens without at least one other supertech mind getting access to Stark's tech - that mind almost invariably incapable of doing the work themselves without the Starktech.

 

The argument that if something better exists, then everyone should have it, just doesn't work. Airborne is better trained and equipped than regular infantry, right? So why aren't all infantry given Airborne training and equipment? Why aren't all pilots flying the latest state-of-the-art warplanes? The resources don't exist to cover it. Not everybody can handle the training. Not everybody is effective with certain equipment. Some equipment and training costs a LOT more than others. The goals don't always require the best of the best for everything and, in some cases, just require a LOT of minimally-trained and -equipped people. It's all been said before, of course.

[Greywind]

Re: Armor Wars

 

No. Titanium Man was Eastern Bloc. Based on the plans created by Anton Vanko, who created the original Crimson Dynamo.

 

Mauler and the Raiders had been improved by Hammer using stolen Irontech. Oh, wait, all of those villains existed prior and were only improved by Hammer using the stolen Irontech.

 

Go figure.

[bobooton]

Re: Armor Wars

 

No. Titanium Man was Eastern Bloc. Based on the plans created by Anton Vanko, who created the original Crimson Dynamo.

 

Mauler and the Raiders had been improved by Hammer using stolen Irontech. Oh, wait, all of those villains existed prior and were only improved by Hammer using the stolen Irontech.

 

Go figure.

 

Titanium Man & Crimson Dynamo both show up as Starktech beneficiaries in #229...

 

And yes, I'd agree that some got started on their own, but they didn't get truly powerful without the Starktech. Before then? Beware of tanks and helicopters...

[Markdoc]

Re: Armor Wars

 

Titanium Man & Crimson Dynamo both show up as Starktech beneficiaries in #229...

 

And yes, I'd agree that some got started on their own, but they didn't get truly powerful without the Starktech. Before then? Beware of tanks and helicopters...

 

Heh. I guessing you're not very familiar with the Marvel universe - the first Crimson Dynamo came close to defeating Iron man (Stark eventually tricks him, being unable to take him down in a straight fight), and the second did defeat him - before being killed by the designer of the first suit, who had become a friend of Stark's in the meantime. Hardly B quality. This was before all the rejiggering of Crimson Dynamo suits (they're up to what? 12 models now?) - some of which included Stark Technology, others of which were upgraded wholly in the Soviet union from older suits by the Gremlin (pre titanium armour days).

 

As for "beware tanks and helicopters" Ha! Crimson Dynamos' first appearance shows it as invulnerable to weapons more powerful than a tank's main gun. Indeed, Stark actually borrows and uses a copy of the original Crimson Dynamo armour from Bukharin when he needs a suit less sophisticated, but more powerful than his own. That was the Crimson Dynamo's whole shtick: not as fancy as the Iron Man Armour, but tougher. I'm guessing that you also forgot that Crimson Dynamo originally had the powers to control electrical machinery making conventional weaponry (tanks, helicopters, etc) pretty much a deathtrap when deployed against him - of that he'd been stomping around the US trashing things, completely unstoppable by conventional forces, for a while before Iron Man finally took him down (by faking the voice of his boss).

 

Seriously, all you are doing with this line of argument is digging yourself deeper in the wrong direction, by pointing out ever more people who can (and have) deployed and provided to governments (who have then replicated) sophisticated battlesuits that make tanks look like toys. So question is, why aren't these incredibly powerful and amazingly useful weapons deployed by the military (actually the Crimson Dymano suits were - they turned up being worn by the Soviet Super-Troopers, who are after showing how wonderful they were ..... never turned up again, just like all teh other mass-produced suits).

 

Kahuna's Bro' has it right. The reason this happens - the only reason is that it would turn the comics into science fiction ones.

 

cheers, Mark

[bobooton]

Re: Armor Wars

 

The same Crimson Dynamo who couldn't get out of a box made of lumber and never took a shot from anything during his first appearance? Who Iron Man Mk. II defeated handily with... seriously now... an open-topped box of made of trees? Who in his second appearance was able to use one trick (once) to disable Iron Man Mk. III for a few panels, but then witnessed and stated how much more powerful the Iron Man armor was? Up until then, outside of being punched around by Iron Man and wiped out by a trick weapon, he hadn't taken any hits from anything. IM3 didn't exactly

 

Like others, Titanium Man started strong by using a staged environment, but suit-for-suit he was outmatched against the Mk. IV. The second battle showed almost comparable armor, but he ended up defeated by... water. The third saw the TM armor heavily modified by a super scientist and it was almost comparable to the Mk. IV armor.

 

Later, IM Mk. V fights both an updated CD and TM and wins. CD & TM are using Starktech as of #73.

[Markdoc]

Re: Armor Wars

 

The argument that if something better exists' date=' then everyone should have it, just doesn't work. Airborne is better trained and equipped than regular infantry, right? So why aren't all infantry given Airborne training and equipment? Why aren't all pilots flying the latest state-of-the-art warplanes? The resources don't exist to cover it. Not everybody can handle the training. Not everybody is effective with certain equipment. Some equipment and training costs a LOT more than others. The goals don't always require the best of the best for everything and, in some cases, just require a LOT of minimally-trained and -equipped people. It's all been said before, of course.[/quote']

 

But nobody is making that argument except you. Your argument seems to be that Airborne since costs more than regular infantry, then nobody will use it.

 

In real life, though, a unit that combined the strengths of airborne and heavy armour would be worth its weight in large flawless diamonds. It doesn't mean that every unit would be converted to that status: you don't need that for garrison duty. It does mean, however that such units would be deployed - if they existed.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Armor Wars

 

The same Crimson Dynamo who couldn't get out of a box made of lumber* and never took a shot from anything during his first appearance?

 

Actually in his first appearance he's shown having the suit shot up in the lab and stating "Even Iron Man's repulsor beams can't harm it". Those are the repulsor beans which repeatedly turn military hardware into junk. Iron man is apparently aware of this, since he doesn't try to shoot him. He first proposes carrying them into nearby lake - which will kill both of them! And then tricks him into surrender. Stark seems to have more respect for the Crimson Dynamo suit (despite the fact that it looks ridiculous ) than you do. And you're still ignoring the main point, which is that even if not as good as the best battlesuit in the world - it's still lightyears ahead of current military tech: making it a very, very desirable item indeed.

 

*and yeah, the knocking down trees thing was dumb - but comics were dumb back then.

 

cheers, Mark

[Yansuf]

Re: Armor Wars

 

Obviously the real reason that armies don't have lots of power armored troops in comics (and the Champions Universe) is to keep the basic world from changing too much. But is it really totally unreasonable?

 

Let's talk Champions rather than DC or Marvel comics.

 

The Ultimate Vehicle gives the main gun of the Abrams tank 8d6RKA with various advantages; realisticly for the Sabot Armor Piercing round the +1/4 "partially indirect" should be +1/4 Armor Piercing.

 

Even without the armor piercing, the average damage for this weapon is 28 body and 84 stun (it has a +1 stun multiplier); this would not only KO Defender, it would leave him with negative body! With the armor piercing it would kill him.

Hardpoint would also be KO'd and requiring hospitalization after one hit, with the AP he would be in critical condition.

Armadillo would be in slightly better shape, but still at minus 18 stun and with 8 of his 15 body gone; with AP it would be minus 31 stun and negative 3 body.

 

The Abrams own armor, from the front, would "bounce" the average hit from its own cannon, even with the AP round. None of the three powered armor characters above have a weapon nearly as powerful as the Abrams main gun. In fact, none of them could penetrate the Abrams frontal armor even with a roll of ALL 6's!

 

Now I have the impression that the 3 power armor suits mentioned above are considerably better than any mass produced armor in the Champions universe. (If not, these three characters are NOT really powerful super-heroes and super-villains.) So any mass produced armor, even though still very expensive, would be SIGNIFICANTLY less capable.

 

In fact the most unreasonable position is that powered armor characters can defeat major military forces!

 

Using Champions rules, very few if any powered armor characters have a good chance of surviving a fight with conventional military "heavy" forces (much less winning), except in a city or other place where the military cannot bring its heavy firepower to bear without massive collateral damage. (I don't have Dr. Destroyer's specs at hand, but even Mechanon would be stunned by an average roll from one hit from the Abrams cannon, and 3 in close enough succession that he doesn't get a recovery between them would KO him.)

 

Personally, I have always taken the position that really powerful "weird science" items are devises (yes, spelled without a c) rather than gadgets (or devices), to use the terminology of Whately Academy. Otherwise the question of why similar but less powerful items are not in widespread use crops up all over!

[casualplayer]

Re: Armor Wars

 

In the Marvel Universe most of the high-end armortech is stationed as close to the Latverian border as treaties will allow, to maintain detente with Doom. That's how I would justify a curiously appearing scarcity were I to be running something in the Marvel U.

 

DC has a billion Rocket Reds and OMACs running around. No problems with dissemination there, but DC is a sci-fi world with no pretensions to otherwise.

[Greywind]

Re: Armor Wars

 

...is now, anyways...

[Markdoc]

Re: Armor Wars

 

Obviously the real reason that armies don't have lots of power armored troops in comics (and the Champions Universe) is to keep the basic world from changing too much. But is it really totally unreasonable?

 

Let's talk Champions rather than DC or Marvel comics.

 

The Ultimate Vehicle gives the main gun of the Abrams tank 8d6RKA with various advantages; realisticly for the Sabot Armor Piercing round the +1/4 "partially indirect" should be +1/4 Armor Piercing.

 

Even without the armor piercing, the average damage for this weapon is 28 body and 84 stun (it has a +1 stun multiplier); this would not only KO Defender, it would leave him with negative body! With the armor piercing it would kill him.

Hardpoint would also be KO'd and requiring hospitalization after one hit, with the AP he would be in critical condition.

Armadillo would be in slightly better shape, but still at minus 18 stun and with 8 of his 15 body gone; with AP it would be minus 31 stun and negative 3 body.

 

The Abrams own armor, from the front, would "bounce" the average hit from its own cannon, even with the AP round. None of the three powered armor characters above have a weapon nearly as powerful as the Abrams main gun. In fact, none of them could penetrate the Abrams frontal armor even with a roll of ALL 6's!

 

Now I have the impression that the 3 power armor suits mentioned above are considerably better than any mass produced armor in the Champions universe. (If not, these three characters are NOT really powerful super-heroes and super-villains.) So any mass produced armor, even though still very expensive, would be SIGNIFICANTLY less capable.

 

In fact the most unreasonable position is that powered armor characters can defeat major military forces!

 

Using Champions rules, very few if any powered armor characters have a good chance of surviving a fight with conventional military "heavy" forces (much less winning), except in a city or other place where the military cannot bring its heavy firepower to bear without massive collateral damage. (I don't have Dr. Destroyer's specs at hand, but even Mechanon would be stunned by an average roll from one hit from the Abrams cannon, and 3 in close enough succession that he doesn't get a recovery between them would KO him.)

 

Personally, I have always taken the position that really powerful "weird science" items are devises (yes, spelled without a c) rather than gadgets (or devices), to use the terminology of Whately Academy. Otherwise the question of why similar but less powerful items are not in widespread use crops up all over!

 

These are all good points - but it should be noted that these boards are peppered with complaints that because heroes can't trash regular military forces with near-impunity it's "not like the comics" - which is true, but IMO, a very smart design decision.

 

As to your last point, I allowed my players some latitude, but as I noted earlier, I required gadgeteers to provide some rationale why their gadgets could not be mass produced. The Whately effect would be fine, as would be "requires Osmondium, and I can only create so much of that" or "It's alien tech - we can barely use it, let alone replicate it" - whatever. This duscussion has mostly been about battlesuits, because that's what the OP asked about, but it applies, even more strongly, to all aspects of supertech. To take one example that bugged even my junior comic reading self at the time, when Mar-Vell is revealed to be dying of cancer, Tony Stark, Hank Pym and Reed Richards whip up a cure (One of them, I think Reed, even comments that it's odd they never thought to do it before ). Yay! Unfortunately it doesn't work on Mar-Vell because of his negabands, so apparently they go "Oh. Won't be needing this, then." No wonder people think all three of them are d***s.

 

Seriously, though that encapsulates the problem. If those three can whip up a cure for cancer in a very short time, what about all the other stuff? In short, why does Marvel's universe even look anything like ours? We know the answer of course - to sell comics. And to be fair - I'm cool with that: I just recognize it for what it is.

 

cheers, Mark

[wick]

Re: Armor Wars

 

Why would Tony Stark, Hank Pym, and Reed Richards be able to whip up the cure for cancer anyways? All super Geniuses, but I don't care how smart the Polymath pHD Dr of Physics, Math, Atronomy, etc.. is, they are not a medical doctors. And yes at some point the MU should diverge from reality.

[Markdoc]

Re: Armor Wars

 

Why would Tony Stark' date=' Hank Pym, and Reed Richards be able to whip up the cure for cancer anyways? All super Geniuses, but I don't care how smart the Polymath pHD Dr of Physics, Math, Atronomy, etc.. is, they are not a medical doctors. And yes at some point the MU should diverge from reality.[/quote']

 

They're "Schmot guys". Being a scientist in comics is a superpower, like being able to fly. Just as being able to fly almost always makes you inertialess, but with mass, being a schmot guy makes you capable in all areas of science

 

Again, seriously, it's a genre thing. It's best not to think too deeply about it* And again, fortunately Hero system lets you work around that it you like. You can build a Reed style scientist by buying KS: All the goddamn Science there is: 35- or you can build a slightly more granular version by buying a bunch of more specific skills at lower levels

 

cheers, Mark

 

*Like for example, Peter Parker is how old? His high school buddies went on to serve in Vietnam. .... There are certain aspects of the MU which are like Groundhog day and picking at them will only make you sad. Trying to logically justify them will make your head explode.

 

cheers, Mark

[megaplayboy]

Re: Armor Wars

 

for simplified settings, Universal Scholar, Universal Scientist, and even Universal Genius(100 points for an INT-based roll for KS/SS/AK/PS/Languages) work well, imo.

[Yansuf]

Re: Armor Wars

 

Why would Tony Stark' date=' Hank Pym, and Reed Richards be able to whip up the cure for cancer anyways? All super Geniuses, but I don't care how smart the Polymath pHD Dr of Physics, Math, Atronomy, etc.. is, they are not a medical doctors. And yes at some point the MU should diverge from reality.[/quote']

 

To paraphrase what Markdoc and Megaplayboy are saying: Because it is a COMIC BOOK.

 

But for the record, as I recall Pym was into life sciences (biology I think) originally.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Armor Wars

 

To paraphrase what Markdoc and Megaplayboy are saying: Because it is a COMIC BOOK.

 

But for the record, as I recall Pym was into life sciences (biology I think) originally.

 

He'd have to be, considering all that communicating with ants, radically altering his and others' biology, etc.

 

That he also built Ultron is more than a bit impressive.

[torchwolf]

Re: Armor Wars

 

That he also built Ultron is more than a bit impressive.

Quite. The consequences of using his own brain patterns for Ultron demonstrates that characters can suffer from their Psychological Disads/Comps in unexpected ways though...

[JmOz]

Re: Armor Wars

 

He was a chemist in his first appearence (Escape from the anthill or some such)

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Armor Wars

 

The Whately effect would be fine' date=' as would be "requires Osmondium, and I can only create so much of that"...[/quote']

 

Well, once you grind up all of the Osmonds, where are you gonna get any more base material? Of course, you do have the advantage that your battlesuit is a little bit country, a little bit rock-n-roll...

[GoldenAge]

Re: Armor Wars

 

Well' date=' once you grind up all of the Osmonds, where are you gonna get any more base material? Of course, you do have the advantage that your battlesuit is a little bit country, a little bit rock-n-roll...[/quote']

[Cassandra]

Re: Armor Wars

 

Regarding the use of conventional tanks in a world where powered armor exists, there are a few reasons why older technology would be used. One reason would be cost. A conventional tank would cost considerably less then a high tech suit, and thus more could be bought. Armor might be needed on many fronts, and dependingon a limited number of hi-tech powered armored individuals might lead to strategic problems. Another reason would be politics. Not only would there be a debate on the wisdom of relying on powered armor, but the costs would become an issue as well.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Armor Wars

 

What if tanks actually got even cheaper to make, because of robot assembly, materials becoming lighter and easier to mass produce, etc.? Suppose you could make a 16 DEF vehicle with a crew of 2 (driver and commander/gunner), a main gun, anti-personnel weapon and general-purpose missile system(anti-air, anti-tank, etc.), with a top speed of 150kph(about 90 mph)? It might be slightly less tough and formidable, firepower-wise, than a real-world tank, but it's faster, easier to build, and costs less. And it still basically functions like a tank--main gun goes boom, anti-personnel weapon knocks down enemy infantry, GPMS takes down attacking flying targets, etc. But maybe it weighs only 25 tons, and with reduced armor the average superhero team can actually trash one with some work. But it only costs a million bucks to make, while putting equivalent capability in a one-man armor suit costs 100x as much.

[wick]

Re: Armor Wars

 

Regarding the use of conventional tanks in a world where powered armor exists' date=' there are a few reasons why older technology would be used. One reason would be cost. A conventional tank would cost considerably less then a high tech suit, and thus more could be bought. Armor might be needed on many fronts, and dependingon a limited number of hi-tech powered armored individuals might lead to strategic problems. Another reason would be politics. Not only would there be a debate on the wisdom of relying on powered armor, but the costs would become an issue as well.[/quote']

 

Do you know how much a modern Jet fighter cost IRL? Even at the extreme cost of a Stealth bomber (3 Billion?) you are much better off with a battlesuit as capable as Ironman's. Trust me cost would not be an issue.

 

As noted before Tanks will still have their niche role but would be greatly souped up with spinoff technologies derived from the Battle armor super Tech..i.e.. the whole argument of putting the same armor as the battle suit on the Tank, only thicker.

 

Strategic problems: When you get down to it the Armor suits are just conventional weapons in another form. Sure their will be knockoffs and a kind of arms race between hi tech countries. There already is with real life weapons platforms.

 

Politics: Nothing hurts worse to politicians than looking powerless to protect the people and/or property. Sure the Army comes in to stop the Hulk but are readily defeated and the Country is powerless. i would hate to be the Senator who voted down the poweruit project that prevented our nation's military from having the right tools to possibly stop this menace from killing, maiming and destroying a city. In other words, who is going to vote against such projects when such exist. Sure there are super heros but since they are not under governmental control can they be relied upon?