Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

[OddHat]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

My ideal character writeup: one that "feels like" the character being modelled while being built on as few points as possible.

 

Having multiple writeups is one way of achieving this, by tailoring the writeup to the particular context. "Narrow" writeups, eg "Batman in the early issues of the JLA", are just particular examples of this.

 

MultiBatMan is really just a particular presentation of multiple character sheets, although one that could notionally be played as a single character. (But No Sensible Champions GM Would Allow It!)

 

I agree with all but the No Sensible bit.

 

I can imagine a campaign where I might allow it, if I were intentionally looking for a build challenge and had good control over the builds of all characters (so as to prevent anyone from ending up feeling useless). Even then, I probably would go another way, as having the player flipping through sheets all the time would drive me nuts.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Followers? Not Vehicles?

 

Also, I'm not sure about the idea of a multiform slot with a vehicle. That is definitely double-dipping for points. Where does it go if he changes form?

 

The problem with this idea for Batman is the 64th Multiform then has multiforms himself' date=' with 63 more forms of Superman, and a 64th with YET MORE MULTIFORMS. So this becomes an infinite loop, covering every hero, and this character can become EVERY 350 point hero EVER![/quote']

 

Let's be realistic - the reason such an unusual build is needed for Batman is that acquiring all the abilities Batman "should" possess based on the comics requires a character with more than base points.

 

That said, a MF of Bats, Bats in Plane, Bats in Batmobile, etc. doesn't seem 100% unreasonable. Bats can't use all those martial arts and utility belt gadgets when he's in the vehicle anyway.

[Mathew]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Nested Multiforms? Interesting. Like having a Multipower inside a Multipower.

 

Whether or not the rules explicitly rule it out, it's unlikely many GMs would let a player get away with such a build.

 

Please note that I didn't write: "no sane GM would let..." That would have constituted a "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

 

Personally, Cassandra's build is beyond what I would allow in an actual game. As an example it's rather interesting, though. I've experimented in the past with Multiform based Superman builds, after having had some success with Multiform based versions of Ultra Boy.

 

Oh, yes, Ultra Boy. The only thing tricky about him is which is his base form. In his first appearance, he only uses his vision powers. Later on, he is shown using his invulnerability power as his default form. In theory, of course, he could use none of his powers at all.

 

Any of these could be his base form. In practice, his invulnerability power would be the least cheesy option. His first appearance can be explained as him being told only to use those particular powers. In practice, of course, it would be perfectly reasonable to build him with a rather weak "invulnerability" slot, and make his vision powers the slot that is actually useful. He wouldn't initially need to have any other slots at all!

 

They could be added later on. Really, only two more would be necessary: Superstrength and Superspeed.

 

In general, his powers are portrayed in such a way that it's not really necessary to break him down in more detail than this. They tend to clump together, and many of his secondary abilities can be considered as side effects of his main ones. (Superbreath is a good example - it can be treated as being related to Superstrength.)

 

With a bit of work, each form can thus be a reasonably well rounded character in itself. At this stage, however, shtick preservation can become an issue. That's pretty context dependent though, and not particularly relevant to this discussion.

 

I had written up a lower end 250 point Ultraboy once, used a multipower:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~mathewignash/csultraboy.html

 

Yes, it uses one slow with enhanced senses, so it required GM permission.

 

I generally limit my use of Multiform for only when a character has two very different forms. Different mental stats, abilities, BODY, etc. For instance I'd use it for Mighty Man from Savage Dragon, where a character has two completely seperate bodies that change place. I wouldn't use it for say, a Transformer who turns into a truck, since he has the same basic abilities, just shifted shape. I might take some powers as "only in hero id" on such a character.

 

Back to Batman, would there be a limitation that all the various forms would take BODY and STUN from when he's in another form? If not then when "Detective Batman" gets shot, he could change to "Martial Artist" Batman and be healed.

[Mathew]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Let's be realistic - the reason such an unusual build is needed for Batman is that acquiring all the abilities Batman "should" possess based on the comics requires a character with more than base points.

 

That said, a MF of Bats, Bats in Plane, Bats in Batmobile, etc. doesn't seem 100% unreasonable. Bats can't use all those martial arts and utility belt gadgets when he's in the vehicle anyway.

 

You seemed to say it though... "the abilities Batman "should" possess based on the comics requires a character with more than base points", so this really is just trying to save points, not explain a character in the rules correctly. How about just take all the 64 different Batmen writeups, make one character that has ALL the abilities of them combined, figure out his cost (probably 1000+ points), and admit an comic accurate Batman is a 1000 point character.

[Greywind]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Trying to explain an established character "in the rules correctly" is just a mental numbers game. You make the character the way you want or think the character should be and you pad out the points with experience.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Trying to explain an established character "in the rules correctly" is just a mental numbers game. You make the character the way you want or think the character should be and you pad out the points with experience.

 

Very true. It depends a lot on where you set the benchmarks as well. We might agree, for example, that Batman is very difficult to hit. We know we will simulate that with a high DCV. But how high depends on the setting norm for OCV. If Supers tend to range from OCV 7 to 9, then a 12 DCV is pretty hard to hit and a 14 is extremely hard to hit. If, however, the characters have OCV's running from 10 to 15, Bats needs an 18 - 20 DCVto be exactly as hard to his (30 points more). Similarly, the cost of his OCV depends on typical DCV's, the cost of his attacks depends on campaign standard defenses, the cost of defenses depends on campaign average attacks and the cost of his SPD depends on campaign norms for SPD.

 

The "JLA writeup" threads are great examples of this, where the writeup of any one character can only really be evaluated in comparison with the other characters.

 

As to the Multiform Batman (or any other point-shaving technique), the real test is whether the character is balanced in play. To really emulate Batman, you need to spend considerable points on a base, several vehicles and a ton of skills. Unless the campaign is such that the benefits of the base, vehicles and skills are commensurate with spending the same points on extra attacks, defenses, SPD and other personal combat abilities, then the base, vehicles and skills are overpriced, at least for that game. In many Champions games, those skills might occasionally be useful, the base is just a place to hang out between adventures and the vehicles are only permitted to be used for transportation from Point A to Point B. Characters without such abilities find that they can readily find assistance in respect of skills they don't have (either they don't come up, a teammate has them or a convenient NPC has them - the lack of detective work skills don't result in the heroes standing around scratching their heads while the Bad Guys are always three steps ahead and never even encountered), characters lacking a vehicle or other long-range movement power nevertheless get where they need to be without any real difficulty and characters without a base hang out somewhere they paid no points for. In a combat-centric game, the Bats clone has to pay more or less the same points as everyone else on combat abilities so that the character isn't useless or, at best, a sidekick, in the focus of the game, and then add on the cost of all those extras, which simply become the plot devices allowing the heroes to move from combat to combat (we don't need a contact with a detective or a scientist as Bats has those skills; NPC's are much harder to interact with successfully since Bats has high PRE and interaction skills and the other characters can get the info from him afterwards; the heroes need not borrow transport from the army since Bats has vehicles; they don't need a base sponsored by a local millionaire since they can all hang out at the BatCave.

 

In fact, maybe this explains why Bats is a loner - he's tired of the other players sponging off his points to cover their own deficiencies. Superman wants to know where the next robbery will likely take place? Let him spend some points on skills instead of that Super Freeze Breath he just bought - Batman's going alone. Aquaman needs to get inland? Let him walk - he can buy his own vehicles instead of Perks like being King and that hot wife Follower. The League needs a place to hang? Let them shell out some points on a satellite - my Batcave is MY Batcave - private property! They didn't spend 15 points on Wealth - they can fly tourist and stay in a fleabag hotel. I'll be flying private chartered jet, with no issues with my foci in my luggage, and staying at 5 star hotels and resorts.

[Mathew]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Trying to explain an established character "in the rules correctly" is just a mental numbers game. You make the character the way you want or think the character should be and you pad out the points with experience.

 

I know that, but I'm pretty sure what you said has nothing to do with whether Batman should be made with 64 multiforms or one form with lots of skills. If the goal is to make a powerful Batman, I'd advise making one character with the combined abilties of all 64 forms and admit you're trying to make a character whose value is indeed greater than 350 points.

 

It would be funny though, if Batman (in "Batman with the Batcopter" form) was flying in a Batcopter over the ocean, resucing some ally, then they get attacked by a shark, so he switches to "Batman with silly gadgets" form, hands his ally the Bat-shark repellant, but suddenlt the Batcopter disappears, dropping them in the ocean! (oops, that form doesn't have a Vehicle!)

[Enforcer84]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

So why wouldn't DCU's Amazo or Parasite be able to copy/absorb the multiform ability?

 

Why would he want to? He can copy the ring, but I don't think he ever copied vehicles or the like.

[assault]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

I've been looking at building a starting Silver Age JLA based on the abilities the characters used in that title, and not their own stories.

...

I might have to have a closer look at the early issues.

 

For once I've actually followed up on something... Incredible!

 

Brave and the Bold #28 - the JLA's first appearance - contains enough material to build recognizable and probably affordable versions of Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern and the Martian Manhunter. Aquaman, Batman and Superman don't get much face time. The following issues no doubt correct that.

 

There is one problem though - those early stories really suck! Reading them makes my brain hurt.

[Greywind]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Very true. It depends a lot on where you set the benchmarks as well. We might agree' date=' for example, that Batman is very difficult to hit. We know we will simulate that with a high DCV. But how high depends on the setting norm for OCV. If Supers tend to range from OCV 7 to 9, then a 12 DCV is pretty hard to hit and a 14 is extremely hard to hit. If, however, the characters have OCV's running from 10 to 15, Bats needs an 18 - 20 DCVto be exactly as hard to his (30 points more). Similarly, the cost of his OCV depends on typical DCV's, the cost of his attacks depends on campaign standard defenses, the cost of defenses depends on campaign average attacks and the cost of his SPD depends on campaign norms for SPD.[/quote']Which going over various different write-ups on the board, it is apparent that we don't all agree on the averages. When you have people deciding that MAX human norm is 20 because the RAW caps NCM at 20. You end up with Cap or Bats with a 20 STR/20 DEX situation.

 

Of course if you got every one to agree, this place would end up being pretty boring

[torchwolf]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Of course if you got every one to agree' date=' this place would end up being pretty boring [/quote']

No it wouldn't, you're all wrong.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Brave and the Bold #28 - the JLA's first appearance - contains enough material to build recognizable and probably affordable versions of Wonder Woman' date=' Flash, Green Lantern and the Martian Manhunter. Aquaman, Batman and Superman don't get much face time. The following issues no doubt correct that.[/quote']

 

If I recall correctly, the Superman and Batman line editors were very protective back in the late '50s to '60s and didn't want the characters over-exposed for fear it would cut into sales of their regular books. For that reason, they got limited exposure in the actual book and, I believe, were not allowed to appear on the covers. I think that ended in the mid-60's with DC capitalizing on the Batman TV show by getting him prominently on as many covers as possible.

 

That's still a step up from the old JSA formula, where you had to have a feature in a book to be a member, but anyone getting their own solo book became an honorary member (Bats and Supes started that way, Flash and Green Lantern went that route when they got their own solo books and Wonder Woman only appeared as Secretary), at least until the dying days of the Golden Age when there weren't a lot of characters left getting published independently.

[Escafarc]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Inportant info for any Gothom City Campaign

 

[assault]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Inportant info for any Gothom City Campaign

 

 

So... kind of like Miami then...

[Dr Divago]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

I like the idea of multiform for equipment-batman and to create different version of bats

 

btw, i'd like more using VPP for utility belt and veichles/special equipment

 

also, INT 18 and EGO 14 are fairly low, and all stats had to be maxed out (and also over normal maxima... Bats fight alongside Supes and WW, kick New God's arse and like...)

his a genius so INT above 20 could be good imhoo, and also got very powerful mental and physical resistence, can fight using his own mind etc etc.

of course, it depends on standard char's base: how much point for Superman? Wonder Woman? The Flash (both)? Green Lantern (anyone)?

a INT 18 for Batman is ok if Hal got EGO 18 or 20 and Superman got BODY 30, just for instance

 

for DNPC dunno if all those one are good... most of time Batman Family member are not a dependece but an henchmen

Nightwing for instances i'd make an Henchmen or, better, a resource; idem for Outsiders

 

just my humble opinion, of course

[Sketchpad]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

I have to disagree with you a bit here, Doc Divago Yeah, Batman seems like the "Bat God" most of the time ... but there are plenty of stories that also show how limited he is in ability next to people like Superman & Wonder Woman. I actually would stat his INT around 18, as I don't see him as a genius in the traditional sense, but rather as a brilliant tactician, world-renowned detective and someone who's been known to tinker a bit here and there. Basically, his got some impressive skills ... probably, at minimum, his skills should clock in at 17≤ with the max being 20+≤. As for his ability to make New Gods cry like a baby, much of that is Levels in combat, combined with additional martial arts DCs and the use of trickery (which is, again, skill based). In addition, his costume would have some serious PRE modifiers, bolstering his impressive PRE to the levels he's shown in the comics, as well as a Reputation to add to that.

As for the Batsquad, the easiest way to stat that is with a few Contacts. As Bruce Wayne, it's very likely that the sheet would have something like 'Universal Contact', showing that Bruce knows pretty much everyone ... but Batman would have some pretty big group contacts ... Batsquad, JLA and Outsiders ... as well as some pretty loyal and handy individuals such as Jim Gordon (or GCPD depending on when the stats are coming from), Superman and Oracle. Batman's sheet shouldn't have DNPCs ... there's no one that close that qualifies. The only one that comes close is Alfred, who is more an ally than a dependent. The only one I might list is the 'Date of the Day' to represent the women that randomly enter and exit his life, but it would be fairly low in frequency ...

 

Like Doc Divago, this is IMHO ... YMMV

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

I have to disagree with you a bit here' date=' Doc Divago Yeah, Batman seems like the "Bat God" most of the time ... but there are plenty of stories that also show how limited he is in ability next to people like Superman & Wonder Woman. I actually would stat his INT around 18, as I don't see him as a genius in the traditional sense, but rather as a brilliant tactician, world-renowned detective and someone who's been known to tinker a bit here and there.[/quote']

 

This all comes down to the baseline. If we assume the average Normal has an 8 INT, many Supers are in the 8 - 10 range (normal to a bit above normal), with fairly bright guys like Barry Allen (forensic scientist) or Jen Walters (renowned lawyer) weighing in at 13 - 15, really bright guys (scientist types who engineered or designed their own powers and often design new ones, like Ted Kord and Hank Pym, or who solve problems with scientific research like Hank McCoy or John Henry Irons) clocking in at 18 - 20, reserving 23-25 for superscientists versed in numerous fields, routinely developing new gadgets and rarely stumped for more than a few minutes by a new scientific challenge (Tony Stark, say), then super-geniuses like Reed Richards or the Leader can clock in at 28 to 35. That gives us as good a range as we see in DEX. In that pool, giving Bats an 18, or even a 13 - 15, would seem quite reasonable.

 

But if we establish that any Super under an 18 INT, say, is deficient compared to his peers, and require an INT of 23+ for a character who designs his own powers in a narrow field (say Captain Cold's cryogenics or Ray Palmer's white dwarf matter), requiring an INT in the 50 to 60 range for the Bruce Banners and Reed Richards of the game, then Bats looks pretty dense with an INT of 18.

 

Basically' date=' his got some impressive skills ... probably, at minimum, his skills should clock in at 17; with the max being 20+;[/quote']

 

Again depends on campaign standards. A base skill roll (13-) and 4 overall levels provides a 17-when he focuses. If the typical Super has a roll of 12 or 13 and no levels, getting a 17- routinely seems pretty impressive. But if every junior lawyer is considered to have an 18-20 INT and a skill roll of 15- in Law, then Supers are going to need rolls in the 20's to be considered really impressive with their skills, and Bats needs to be near or at the top of the skill ladder, so he needs much better rolls, whether from base stats, buying up the skills or way more levels.

 

As for his ability to make New Gods cry like a baby' date=' much of that is Levels in combat, combined with additional martial arts DCs and the use of trickery (which is, again, skill based).[/quote']

 

Again, what's the baseline? In a game with 8d6 to 10d6 attacks and typical defenses in the range of 15, Bats probably gets by fairly well with 15 STR, a martial arts suite and a couple of MA DC's (12d6 Offensive Strike if he has 3 MA DC's will hit a 20 DEF target fairly hard). Here, we do have a better baseline, at least for STR. We know Bats is above average, and we know he doesn't toss cars, or even motorcycles, around.

 

In addition' date=' his costume would have some serious PRE modifiers, bolstering his impressive PRE to the levels he's shown in the comics, as well as a Reputation to add to that.[/quote']

 

Same baseline issues.

 

As for the Batsquad' date=' the easiest way to stat that is with a few Contacts. As Bruce Wayne, it's very likely that the sheet would have something like 'Universal Contact', showing that Bruce knows pretty much everyone ... but Batman would have some pretty big group contacts ... Batsquad, JLA and Outsiders ... as well as some pretty loyal and handy individuals such as Jim Gordon (or GCPD depending on when the stats are coming from), Superman and Oracle. Batman's sheet shouldn't have DNPCs ... there's no one that close that qualifies. The only one that comes close is Alfred, who is more an ally than a dependent. The only one I might list is the 'Date of the Day' to represent the women that randomly enter and exit his life, but it would be fairly low in frequency ...[/quote']

 

Maybe Alfred's a follower, but he's been a DNPC in some prior interpretations, albeit a low frequency one. He could reasonably be a base's DNPC or follower (he's nearly always at the cave or the mansion). Nightwing could be a follower, a contact, or a fellow PC (most of us don't pay points for having some loyalty from other PC's, but it's typically there).

 

It's pretty easy to agree that Bats is notably smarter than the average Super, but not a superscientist, and that he's pretty strong, but not remotely superhuman. But pinning a characteristic number on those descriptions requires an understanding of the basic rules and assumptions for the campaign setting as a whole. A super genius INT in one campaign can be a dullard in another.

[OddHat]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

It's pretty easy to agree that Bats is notably smarter than the average Super' date=' but not a superscientist, and that he's pretty strong, but not remotely superhuman. But pinning a characteristic number on those descriptions requires an understanding of the basic rules and assumptions for the campaign setting as a whole. A super genius INT in one campaign can be a dullard in another.[/quote']

 

Yup, and again and always we need to be clear on which Batman (and which Superman, Lex Luthor, etc) we're talking about. There are cartoons and comics where Batman gets to prove he's as smart as the bad guy Super Scientist, just because there are no other Skill Monsters in the episode / issue and that's how these stories usually work. And then there are stories where he's not much more than a goofball in tights who uses a string of non sequiturs to "solve" the clues the badguys hand him ("Wait! Birds fly, and flies buzz! The Mind Control Ray is hidden in the old buzzsaw factory outside of town!")

 

Which is an argument for making all characters take "Multiform, changes only between writers".

[Sketchpad]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

This all comes down to the baseline...

 

I agree ... in the case of what I was saying, I was using the ideas of a normal human in Hero terms. But then, when I build characters, I tend to stick around those basic concepts ... If for nothing else than a guideline. There are exceptions to the case, but after reading Batman for at least a few decades, I just don't see him exceeding them so much as being the token "skilled character". Mind you, I also give him things like Super-Skills and use different equipment rules. Even characters like Stark and Pym, their intelligence is only so high until skills step in and start becoming a factor (especially in their respective fields). Richards is a slightly different beast all together, as is Banner at points. There's been past evidence that Banner's intelligence wasn't natural to begin with ... but whether or not that's currently canon I couldn't say. Reed, on the other hand, is a case of those exceptions, and, as such, has a higher than norm Intelligence, as well as using things like Universal Scientist to explain his vast knowledge.

 

In addition to knowing the baseline, it also helps to understand the character and his background. By some respects, Bruce would be on the level of Tony Stark in engineering, while in others, he outsources all of his information and gadgets. Looking at his allies, almost all of them could be built as followers, but, considering the the amount he calls on them, they'd be better served as contacts. I'll concede that Alfred may have been a DNPC at points, but I personally wouldn't build him as such, much like I wouldn't build Jim Gordon in the same respect. He has far too useful a role as an ally over a DNPC, and has proven far too often to be a contact for Tim Drake and Dick Grayson as well. But, as I said earlier, this is IMHO and everyone is welcome to agree or disagree