Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

[Wanderer]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

In the DC universe i am surprised that the US government has not tried to kill/capture/ or control superman or at the very least developed means to do so (please forgive my ignorance of the DC universe if this has been explored.) It may be nice and fine that supes is patriotic and beats up criminals but there are criminal politicians or even if they are honest they may have a policy that supes does not like. Imagine Superman flying around and destroying abortion clinics, and the authorities can do nothing. I don't see even a benevolent Country willing to be powerless against one single "man"

 

Contingency plans in the case high-powered superhumans turn against humanity may be a sensible thing, but another comic-book trope, quite extant in the Marvel Universe, that deeply annoys my sense of realism is how the "normals" always seem to be to a rabidly bigot horde always ready and eager to break out into grass-roots witch-hunts and follow the most wingnut politicians espousing severe persecutions and crackdowns on the civil rights of superhumans with little provocation. There is something deeply insane and unplausible in a majority eager to harass and persecute a minority that includes plenty of members able to wipe out entire armies of normals and level their cities with little effort.

[Cygnia]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Contingency plans in the case high-powered superhumans turn against humanity may be a sensible thing' date=' but another comic-book trope, quite extant in the Marvel Universe, that deeply annoys my sense of realism is how the "normals" always seem to be to a rabidly bigot horde always ready and eager to break out into grass-roots witch-hunts and follow the most wingnut politicians espousing severe persecutions and crackdowns on the civil rights of superhumans with little provocation. There is something deeply insane and unplausible in a majority eager to harass and persecute a minority that includes plenty of members able to wipe out entire armies of normals and level their cities with little effort.[/quote']

 

This, pretty much. I was always wondering why civil rights lawyers weren't having a field day with discrimination suits against mutants (since there's no way one could call being a mutant a "choice"). Then again, the cynic-realist in me had my thoughts take a few ugly turns afterwards...

[megaplayboy]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

I'll do the rest one at a time as they occur to me:

 

6. Rampant exhibitionism. People with beyond-perfect physiques running around in skin-tight/sheer/body-hugging costumes, that in the case of female heroes are barely there. This isn't necessarily an insupportable premise, but that a bunch of people run around in these outfits and generally don't spend significant amounts of time staring at each other, and that non-supers also generally don't gawk for all that much time either, is a bit much. I would go into the whole supers-rarely-get-sexually-assaulted-after-being-KOed, but I do think there's a supportable premise for that, based on my point about the Iron Age above--nobody really wants to go there much, because retaliation would be...severe. But it is still just a tad insupportable to put people in costumes that would qualify them as exhibitionists in the real world, and have the public reaction be muted compared to what it might be in the real world if a taller, bustier Megan Fox walked down the street dressed like a patriotic hooker.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

7. Non-insane supervillains who try to make a living by robbing banks and other property crimes. There's a million ways a supervillain could make easy money, and publicly walking into a bank and ripping the door off isn't one of them, because at least half the time a superhero's going to show up to pound the ever-loving crap out of them and hand them over to be thrown into a high-tech metal box. They could do endorsement deals, use their powers in some form of gainful employment, be a paid research subject, be the head of a crime syndicate (or, heck, shake down a local organized crime crew for money), move to a third world country and be hired muscle for the local dictator(or become the local dictator), join an "unlimited class pro wrestling" league, etc.

I guess this goes along with "Why doesn't Batman just pay Penguin 10 million dollars a year to stay out of trouble?"

 

8. Insane and murderous supervillains who don't actually ever get sent to prison but are instead carted off to an asylum. Wow, the insanity defense must be a really permissive one in the DCU, because in the real world, almost all of the people at Arkham would actually be in a supermax prison, or on death row. Most of them know what they do is wrong, and some are actually capable of conforming their behavior at least temporarily. I'd love to see a storyline where a 3rd tier bat-villain goes on a killing spree in another country, and after Bats beats him up, the local authorities show up and say, "Thanks, Caped Crusader, don't worry, we'll take it from here. Our justice system is fair, but swift, and no doubt within 2 weeks this villain will face a firing squad. We couldn't have brought him to final justice without your help, so you'll be given full credit at his execution! Our nation is in your debt!"

[Squall]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

I'll do the rest one at a time as they occur to me:

 

6. Rampant exhibitionism. People with beyond-perfect physiques running around in skin-tight/sheer/body-hugging costumes, that in the case of female heroes are barely there. This isn't necessarily an insupportable premise, but that a bunch of people run around in these outfits and generally don't spend significant amounts of time staring at each other, and that non-supers also generally don't gawk for all that much time either, is a bit much. I would go into the whole supers-rarely-get-sexually-assaulted-after-being-KOed, but I do think there's a supportable premise for that, based on my point about the Iron Age above--nobody really wants to go there much, because retaliation would be...severe. But it is still just a tad insupportable to put people in costumes that would qualify them as exhibitionists in the real world, and have the public reaction be muted compared to what it might be in the real world if a taller, bustier Megan Fox walked down the street dressed like a patriotic hooker.

I know that's one that's been tackled by the DC universe, at least a little bit. Hitman has shown a share of "everyday" types with running gags about Power Girl and Wonder Woman (Tommy himself went to the JLA satellite once, just to use his x-ray vision on Wonder Woman to brag to his buddies about it), so the precedent is certainly there that day-to-day working schmucks, blue collar everymen, certainly notice the amazingly top-heavy superwomen running around. Power Girl, especially, is well known in-universe for her...uhh...unique build.

 

In Outsiders (given the roster holding Arsenal and Grace, at least for a while) casual superhero-community sex came up a few times -- Grace even mentioned Plastic Man, once -- early in the series. Dick scowled at Roy for being a hound, once, and asked if there was anyone he wouldn't sleep with; Roy's response was "Among the Amazon-built goddesses we hang out with, wearing spandex? Nope!" (or words to that effect).

 

In at least one other instance I can think of, when the team's ship was destroyed and they were stuck taking a civilian ferry back to the mainland from Alcatraz, several of the gals in their torn-and-tattered superheroine outfits were getting oggled by a nearby tourist with a video camera.

 

In the most recent run of...crap. Seven Soldiers of Victory, or maybe just Seven Soldiers (don't remember the title for sure), one of the characters, Bulleteer, specifically got her metahuman powers from her husband being a superhero fetishist. He was a physicist and superheroine porno fiend, who cooked up a concoction to give them metallic skin that granted invulnerability and super strength, because he wanted to live out his fantasies about Sally Sonic, a metahuman porno star, and blah blah blah, all very Iron Age-ish. While it's kind of a lame hook for a character, it stands as proof that the fantastic physiques and skimpy outerwear of your average metahuman isn't going unnoticed, particularly in the internet age.

 

And, of course, the rape thing HAS come up (like in Identity Crisis), unfortunate as it was.

 

It's all come up on the Marvel side a little, recently, too, but especially in their Ultimates Universe.

[Escafarc]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Don't forget the Superman/Big Barda porno. Though I wish I could.

[Nuclear Fridge]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

If my memory core works properly, wasn't there a DCU story about how The Joker was up for the death penalty...

...but Batman decided that Big Scary Grin didn't deserve to be executed for all the gruesome murders he'd committed over the years.

Of course, killing off The Joker would have been financially unwise for DC, but the whole business of Bats getting all "Oh my Gawd!!" over a

psychotic killer's legal plight just stank!

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

If my memory core works properly, wasn't there a DCU story about how The Joker was up for the death penalty...

...but Batman decided that Big Scary Grin didn't deserve to be executed for all the gruesome murders he'd committed over the years.

Of course, killing off The Joker would have been financially unwise for DC, but the whole business of Bats getting all "Oh my Gawd!!" over a

psychotic killer's legal plight just stank!

Actually, Batman defended him because he was not guilty on the one particular count for which he was being executed. It wasn't just saving his life to save his life. If the law correctly and accurately executed The Joker, Batman wouldn't step in the way at all.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Actually' date=' Batman defended him because he was not guilty on the one particular count for which he was being executed. It wasn't just saving his life to save his life. If the law correctly and accurately executed The Joker, Batman wouldn't step in the way at all.[/quote']

 

This is clearly not Frank Miller's Batman we are talking about. Still, it sounds like an interesting premise. Which book, and what issues, was this story in?

[Nuclear Fridge]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

It's been quite a while since I could bring myself to buy any DC (the last thing I really liked was the original 12-part release of Watchmen!)

 

I'm sure, though, that real soon now a lot of people are going to keel over from lethal laughing gas. It's such an original way to make a point...

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

(their main gripe with Christians is that the Christians did not pay respect or homage to the other gods and they felt this would bring doom down on all of their heads.)

 

Christians did a lot that squicked out the Romans, starting with worshiping an executed criminal and moving on into their rituals where they ate flesh and drank blood. My (limited) understanding of Latin leads me to believe that the phrase "brotherly love" holds incestuous overtones as well.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

This is clearly not Frank Miller's Batman we are talking about. Still' date=' it sounds like an interesting premise. Which book, and what issues, was this story in?[/quote']

 

I'm pretty sure this was before DKR, but I can't recall exact date or issue. I shall endeavor to find the answer!

 

EDIT: Wow, I was completely off.

 

The Devil's Advocate by Chuck Dixon and Graham Nolan, 1995

 

[input.jack]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Im amazed that its never occured to the writers at DC that the simplest explanation for why the Joker still draws breath is that Gotham, whatever state it happens to be in, DOESNT ALLOW CAPITAL PUNISHMENT. That would be SO simple to mention in-world, and it would clear up all of those damnable "Batman is responsible for everything Joker does now" arguements.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Im amazed that its never occured to the writers at DC that the simplest explanation for why the Joker still draws breath is that Gotham' date=' whatever state it happens to be in, DOESNT ALLOW CAPITAL PUNISHMENT. That would be SO simple to mention in-world, and it would clear up all of those damnable "Batman is responsible for everything Joker does now" arguements.[/quote']

 

He is. Because Batman is a douche.

[Greywind]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Jersey...

[Drhoz]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Given the horrific stresses Dante's been through, grey hairs are only to be expected.

And I may be wrong about this, but I have the feeling that Joe Dredd isn't going to last much longer.

 

You're not wrong re: Dante. Just read the Trial of Vladimir the Conqueror - quite a punch in the guts! Not quite the happy-go-lucky thief anymore, is he?

 

And the Backlash story arc in Dredd is certainly enthralling - Wagner's lost none of skill with a script, that's for sure

[SKJAM!]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

There is a cult in the DCU that worships Superman; they were most active for a couple of years after him coming back from the dead. We haven't seen them for a long time, though.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

9. Changing alignment alters your power level. Whenever Magneto becomes an X-man, his power level drops considerably. When he goes back to being a solo bad guy, he's messing with the planet's magnetic field and moving asteroids around again. Whenever Prof X or some good guy goes bad, their power level rises considerably. I understand why the writer does it(so the bad-guy-turned-good doesn't overshadow the rest of the good guys, and so the good-guy-turned-bad can be a suitably menacing threat to the good guy team), but it's generally an insupportable premise.

9a. Changing writers alters your power level, too, and not always upward. A new writer takes over, and half the time, the character's power level is likely to go way up, or way down, depending on what kind of storylines the writer has in mind.

9b. The "Batman or Batgod?" paradox: In Gotham City, Batman sometimes struggles to put down street thugs, and to figure out what one of his arch-nemeses is up to next. But on the JLA, he's going toe to toe with vastly more powerful opponents, and figuring out incredibly complicated scenarios with Reed Richards-like speed. If "JLA Batman" was fighting street crime, Gotham would be the safest city on the planet within a year. He'd probably be pretty bored, too. If "Gotham City Batman" was helping fight JLA opponents, he'd be injured repeatedly before retiring from crime-fighting within a year. He'd also feel slightly useless.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

9. Changing alignment alters your power level.

Just like professional wrestling

[Mister E]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

9. Changing alignment alters your power level. Whenever Magneto becomes an X-man, his power level drops considerably. When he goes back to being a solo bad guy, he's messing with the planet's magnetic field and moving asteroids around again. Whenever Prof X or some good guy goes bad, their power level rises considerably. I understand why the writer does it(so the bad-guy-turned-good doesn't overshadow the rest of the good guys, and so the good-guy-turned-bad can be a suitably menacing threat to the good guy team), but it's generally an insupportable premise.

 

You are correct. This is a silly premise and it is abused. Still, I'm going to defend it.

 

First, to clarify the obvious, you're not talking about merely changing alignment. You're talking about characters who seem more powerful when they are bad than when they are good.

 

My argument is only that this is justified by the good use of restrained power and the bad use of unrestrained power. For instance, it is a policy of good Professor X to not casually violate people with mind control. Nothing but his own sense of morality is stopping him. He is free to do as he wishes. Whereas bad Professor X, knowing it is good to not puppet-master people, will do so for any reason just to power-trip. Self-motivated dissuasion thus presents the appearance only of weakness, and is not actually weak.

 

In this sense, it is not true that with great power comes great responsibility. Great responsibility depends on great power, but is not necessitated by it. Only with great sensitivity and great will comes great responsibility.

[Squall]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

You are correct. This is a silly premise and it is abused. Still, I'm going to defend it.

 

First, to clarify the obvious, you're not talking about merely changing alignment. You're talking about characters who seem more powerful when they are bad than when they are good.

 

My argument is only that this is justified by the good use of restrained power and the bad use of unrestrained power. For instance, it is a policy of good Professor X to not casually violate people with mind control. Nothing but his own sense of morality is stopping him. He is free to do as he wishes. Whereas bad Professor X, knowing it is good to not puppet-master people, will do so for any reason just to power-trip. Self-motivated dissuasion thus presents the appearance only of weakness, and is not actually weak.

 

In this sense, it is not true that with great power comes great responsibility. Great responsibility depends on great power, but is not necessitated by it. Only with great sensitivity and great will comes great responsibility.

The same holds true with other powers, just as well -- even the Magneto example, for instance, can be rationalized not only with ethical concerns on the personal level (manipulating the iron in someone's blood is a mean thing to do, so "good" Magneto doesn't abuse his power), but also on a larger scale, like concerns about disruption the Earth's magnetic field by overusing his powers, messing with atmospheric conditions by bringing Asteroid M into the atmosphere, etc, etc.

 

An evil Brick is far more likely to use his full strength when fighting an unpowered mook -- the fact that Black Adam uses his strength to gleefully rend mundane folks limb from limb doesn't mean he's physically stronger than Captain Marvel, it just means he uses that full strength where good guys are far more likely to consistently hold back.

 

A lot of these insupportable premises are ones that have been addressed, in some form or another, in fairly modern comics. The rest of them (like the Joker never being put to death, no matter how many lives he takes), simply come down to "if you kill off iconic bad guys, there's no one left for the good guys to fight in next month's issue" sort of logic.

[Clonus]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Oh yeah' date=' and back on an earlier subtopic...it occurred to me that if Marvel had allowed comic time to come unhitched from real time, that it would probably be mid-1970s or so in Fantastic Four, and Reed Richards could have iphone clones on the market. It would be the best of both worlds...real world tech can show up disjointed comic time, and the high-tech inventors can have an effect on the world.[/quote']

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/52923-The-compressed-timeline?p=1256403#post1256403

[Burrito Boy]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

 

If Malachite/Teleios were to discreetly market Scarlet Johansson replicants, how much business would he drum up?

 

I'll take two!

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

 

If Malachite/Teleios were to discreetly market Scarlet Johansson replicants, how much business would he drum up?

 

I'll take two!

 

Could they also be imprinted with cool fangirl personalities, devotion bordering on obsession, and the ability to cook down home American, Italian, Korean, and Thai food? If so, I'm in.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

10th(though any number of other things could go here): the overly resilient, frequently/constantly endangered DNPC. How many times can your girlfriend be kidnapped, beaten up, mind-controlled, nearly killed, turned into a monster, temporarily driven insane, or just biting her nails with worry whenever you disappear for days, before she gives you the "it's not you, it's me" speech? How many times can villains threaten your loved ones before the impulse to make an "object lesson" of one of them finally gets the better of you, and you're spelling out "this is what happens when you mess with people I care about" with their entrails? (yeah, I know it goes against an earlier point somewhat, but I think they're both still valid) And some heroes wind up losing their significant others with alarming frequency. I think "very bad things happen to people who date Tony Stark/Bruce Wayne/etc." would have a damping effect on their social life after a while...