New Gamers

[Fearghus]

Re: New Gamers

 

The same as the number of new hobbyists who started gaming cold with' date=' say, D&D 3rd or 4th edition. Exactly zero. That's my point. Lucius aside, almost no one starts playing RPGs all by themselves. They virtually always start by being "mentored" by existing players. And I've known several whose first RPG was Hero, including some where I've been the "mentor."[/quote']

 

I can not agree more. I started playing because a friend of mine got me into it. I have introduced people to it. The only example of someone "starting cold" I can think of does not count in my opinion since I basically ended up mentoring him. At the time we played in a comic book shop, and he had never played before, but the group I was with were willing to show him the ropes. So it was him that showed interest and asked if he could play but he didn't learn the game by reading the book and trying to play with an entirely new group he learned by playing with my group.

 

"Familiarity breeds contempt...

and children"

-Mark Twain

[gojira]

Re: New Gamers

 

I can not agree more. I started playing because a friend of mine got me into it. I have introduced people to it.

 

 

Conversely, there are people who act as mentors who pick a new game up themselves, learn it, and teach it to others. There's a large number of gamers who act this way. Not the majority, but a minority who decides what the next new, cool game is, learns it, and then spreads the word. And I've seen folks who act like this (on RPG.net) utterly reject Hero after learning about the size of the rule books. Even after expressing interest and saying they were hoping the new rule set would be condensed and simplified and good to learn, they just look at the size of the books and say "no thanks."

 

Now, is this really a problem? Is that attitude really hurting Hero Games? I cannot say. I think there's some anecdotal evidence that it does hurt, at least somewhat. There are definitely some lost sales due to the size of the basic books.

 

What could be done about it? Not much, I think. I don't expect Steve and Darren to re-issue the basic books; trimming page counts would destroy all the page references in the genre books and other books. Mostly I'm here just having a discussion about Hero, while metaphorically feeding the pigeons in the park. Maybe when 7e rolls around, Steve and Darren can try a slimmer set of rule books. I think it'll help, myself; certainly couldn't hurt.

[Vondy]

Re: New Gamers

 

23 years.

 

For me its 20 with hero 30 with gaming.

 

This has a formative impact on our perceptions of system complexity / learning curve.

 

We are NOT newbies.

 

The same as the number of new hobbyists who started gaming cold with' date=' say, D&D 3rd or 4th edition. Exactly zero. That's my point. Lucius aside, almost no one starts playing RPGs all by themselves. They virtually always start by being "mentored" by existing players. And I've known several whose first RPG was Hero, including some where I've been the "mentor."[/quote']

 

I would like to point you to the following....

 

Conversely' date=' there are people who act as mentors who pick a new game up themselves, learn it, and teach it to others. There's a large number of gamers who act this way. Not the majority, but a minority who decides what the next new, cool game is, learns it, and then spreads the word....[/quote']

 

I am one of these people. I know a great many gamers who operate this way.

 

But....

 

1)

 

If I had not evolved with hero for two decades I most probably would not try to learn it cold today the way I did 20 years ago. The time investment would not be worth it. Its become increasinly granular and branched. The only reason I use Hero now is that I'm vested and after 20 years know its principles, major mechanics, and the costs and values of most things by rote. If I actually had to use the rule books for more than occassional reference during chaacter design I would tear my hair out. I love hero, but I've been married to her for a while. For most of my games I'd probably be using the dead letter SilCore.

 

2)

 

Not one of other gamers I know who learn new games and teach them have tried with the last two editions of Hero. I know several who did it with 4th. I was my groups mentor for Hero. I taught them 4th. Got them to upgrade to 5th. But now that I'm in Israel the answer is: "not upgrading if you aren't here to hold my hand." In my opinion, 4th Edition was the last edition that was truly newbie friendly.

[teh bunneh]

Re: New Gamers

 

Conversely, there are people who act as mentors who pick a new game up themselves, learn it, and teach it to others. There's a large number of gamers who act this way. Not the majority, but a minority who decides what the next new, cool game is, learns it, and then spreads the word. And I've seen folks who act like this (on RPG.net) utterly reject Hero after learning about the size of the rule books. Even after expressing interest and saying they were hoping the new rule set would be condensed and simplified and good to learn, they just look at the size of the books and say "no thanks."

 

Now, is this really a problem? Is that attitude really hurting Hero Games? I cannot say. I think there's some anecdotal evidence that it does hurt, at least somewhat. There are definitely some lost sales due to the size of the basic books.

 

What could be done about it? Not much, I think. I don't expect Steve and Darren to re-issue the basic books; trimming page counts would destroy all the page references in the genre books and other books. Mostly I'm here just having a discussion about Hero, while metaphorically feeding the pigeons in the park. Maybe when 7e rolls around, Steve and Darren can try a slimmer set of rule books. I think it'll help, myself; certainly couldn't hurt.

 

I'd like to point out that the Hero System Basic Rules book is 136 pages, and is a complete game system in itself. I'm not sure how much more "newbie-friendly" you can get without having Steve or Darren come to your house and teach you the game personally.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: New Gamers

 

How long have you been playing Hero?

 

And how many new hobbyists do you know who started gaming cold with 5th or 6th edition without a mentor?

 

Not experienced gamers who migrated, but fresh gaming meat.

You just described me.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: New Gamers

 

Frankly, I'm getting lost in this discussion. First I'm told that I'm wrong because people new to the RPG hobby can't pick up the Hero rules cold and teach themselves. Then when I point out that people new to the RPG hobby almost always play whatever the people who introduce them happen to play (rather than picking up a book cold), I'm told I'm wrong because existing RPGers who like to learn and teach new games don't often choose Hero as a game to do that with. Whatever. These goalposts seem to be on wheels to me...

[Greywind]

Re: New Gamers

 

...and you're the punter...

[Mister E]

Re: New Gamers

 

... I'm not sure how much more "newbie-friendly" you can get without having Steve or Darren come to your house and teach you the game personally.

 

Now there's an idea!

 

"Hello, everyone. My name is Steve Long, but you can call me Steve. First I'd like to explain a little something about role playing in general..."

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: New Gamers

 

This is an interesting point to bring up. Here's my take: telling people what a role playing game is is almost insulting. It assumes that they can not understand basic language. Painting a picture of what a role playing game can encompass is interesting advertising and, as such, should be on the outside of the covers or on a poster somewhere. If I were writing Hero, and I'm not, then I might weave some enthusiasm through the text, but I would not devote a separate section to the idea of what role playing is: too existential, too knowing, too 'Foxtrot Oscar'.

 

To move beyond the scope of the original question, here's what I WOULD put in the introduction pages to Hero (and, thinking on it, I'd probably put this bit on-line as a taster rather than use up page-count): four PCs, three villains and a villain agent and a short introductory scenario built with introducing rules concepts in mind. The characters would have nothing but 'play numbers' included i.e. they would not show how they were built (again you could place the full build on-line somewhere). Then I would follow it with the same thing again, using a different genre, spiced and seasoned to feel as different as possible. So: two genres (let us assume superheroes and fantasy, for the purposes of illustration), both interpreted in Hero, but actively demonstrating that the final product, even though it has been through the same manufacturing process, can look and feel very different. Is that not what Hero is?

[Mister E]

Re: New Gamers

 

'Foxtrot Oscar'

 

As in, "Captain Oscar?"

[torchwolf]

Re: New Gamers

 

This is an interesting point to bring up. Here's my take: telling people what a role playing game is is almost insulting. It assumes that they can not understand basic language. Painting a picture of what a role playing game can encompass is interesting advertising and, as such, should be on the outside of the covers or on a poster somewhere. If I were writing Hero, and I'm not, then I might weave some enthusiasm through the text, but I would not devote a separate section to the idea of what role playing is: too existential, too knowing, too 'Foxtrot Oscar'.

 

To move beyond the scope of the original question, here's what I WOULD put in the introduction pages to Hero (and, thinking on it, I'd probably put this bit on-line as a taster rather than use up page-count): four PCs, three villains and a villain agent and a short introductory scenario built with introducing rules concepts in mind. The characters would have nothing but 'play numbers' included i.e. they would not show how they were built (again you could place the full build on-line somewhere). Then I would follow it with the same thing again, using a different genre, spiced and seasoned to feel as different as possible. So: two genres (let us assume superheroes and fantasy, for the purposes of illustration), both interpreted in Hero, but actively demonstrating that the final product, even though it has been through the same manufacturing process, can look and feel very different. Is that not what Hero is?

 

Kinda like this is supposed to be?

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/79349-April-2010-Adventure-Design-Challenge-The-Starter-Adventure

[torchwolf]

Re: New Gamers

 

I pointed out the fact that while there is a brief section in the new edition titled “If You're New to the Hero System” but there is nothing like “If You're New to Role Playing” nor any such things as, say, a definition of what Role Playing IS. I had occasion to notice the lack in the previous edition too.

 

I can remember when it was pretty much obligatory for every role playing rule book to have such a section in front, something explaining to the uninitiated what it's all about. I got curious, and got a friend to lend me her D&D books.

The first RPG I picked up was Traveller, in the 3-book black box, and I found it in my home town's then only Science Fiction bookstore in 1979. I had no idea what a roleplaying game was but bought that box anyway because I was intrigued by what the box said, but in hindsight it did a rotten job of explaining what an RPG is to a noob. I ended up GMing Traveller without having played any RPG, and recruited my first player group by teaching them Traveller, then continued that trend with Runequest, etc.

 

 

Why do you suppose it is that Hero Games would make such an assumption?

I'm not sure if that is true. I think that in a way, the Hero system approaches RPGs from a different angle than most games - it starts with creating an imaginary character, and only then explains how to use that character in an RPG of some genre. In a way, the creations of the Example Characters (Randall Irons in particular, in more depth) is the "What is an RPG?" explanation in the BR, and more extensively, the Genres and some other sections in 6E1-6E2, especially much of the 6E2.

It is a different approach, relying more on showing than telling, which I think might have drawn me in it it was my first RPG, but then that's just a theory and my personal opinion.

 

 

Is Hero really so complicated or difficult that it might as well have a warning label “For experienced gamers only!”?

Not really, I think, but a warning label of "Bewildering number of options" might be appropriate.

Seriously, a very difficult question to answer, but most people I've talked to during 4th and previous editions thought it was easier than Rolemaster and Shadowrun, for instance.

D&D is such an institution in itself so it's hard to compare, but personally I've always had a problem with getting used to Level-based game systems (probably since I came across Traveller and Runequest first). I can see the point of levels but am instinctively repulsed by the concept.

...and learning the science of picking Feats, is no mean... er...

 

 

Do you think Hero Games should make an effort to be inclusive of people who are new to roleplaying?

If so, how would we go about convincing the Powers that Be of that, and what could we suggest they do (either for the eventual 7th edition, or in the meantime?)

I think the Basic Rulebook is good, but maybe releasing a flyer with a micro-adventure, a few sample characters and needed rules excerpts might be a good idea.

Still, Earthdawn and several other games (including the new WoD) tried this and I'm not sure if that helped with general RPG introduction.

 

 

Conversely' date=' do you think that Hero Games should be content to let other game systems (primarily D&D I suppose) bring people into the hobby, and grow only by drawing away people who have already started role playing with another system? If so, can you explain to me why you think that?[/quote']

I'm not sure if this is a question or a statement, but I'd answer no to the question.

The most widespread game systems will likely continue to do that anyway, and some d20 games might ride piggyback on that, but I think it would be a mistake for the Hero system to emulate other systems. It is more akin to Basic Roleplaying and GURPS in its function, and does what either of those does much better. If achieving that requires more pages than BRP, so be it. GURPS is no lightweight either, even if 4E GURPS is smaller than 6E Hero.

 

 

How would YOU define basic terms like “role playing game” and “player character” and how would you describe the roles and responsibilities of the players – including the player who runs the game?

Like a friendly improvised radio theater play where you need no actual acting ability; the GM takes the part of all the "extras", does the props, and directs the play - but not the other players. Using dice makes events random and risky, adding to suspense.

 

 

For those of us who think it's okay for people to start out with Hero as their first experience with roleplaying' date=' what if anything can we as individuals do to encourage that?[/quote']

Help them out?

I think these boards are fairly good at that, and the rules references the boards as online resources, which I think is a reasonable and modern approach.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Gamers

 

Hmm... I thought the idea of dividing the rules into two books is that the first volume would be picked up by players wanting all the rules players typically need. In most cases only the GM would be interested in the rules in volume two. So the "casual player" (assuming he/she didn't go for the much smaller Basic Rulebook) would only have to deal with half the rules. Much like how D&D packages their rulebooks (which are also pretty hefty when taken collectively).

 

Other way around.

 

Because First And Foremost: The books are NOT labeled "Players Guide" or "GMs Guide" - They are Labeled "Character Creation" And "Combat And Adventuring"

 

If I just wanted to sit down and play the game, I would want book 2. How many people on these boards have we seen say "Oh, I'm the GM doing all the character creation" and most of the players don't want, or even need to know, what's in book one.

 

Book 2 is definitely the How To Play book, Book 1 is How To Create. Once you make a Character all the rules (what to roll, etc) are on the character sheet in the Power Builds. It's how 3/5 of our group operates, they know what it says on their Character Sheet, but couldn't tell you how to build anything in Hero Speak if you asked them. They can play just fine with that.

 

So the casual player not only needs one of the books, but the smaller one at that, and not even all of it.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: New Gamers

 

Frankly, I think the idea behind dividing the rules into two volumes was just practicality: they're too lengthy to put into a single volume of remotely reasonable size.

 

IMO, if there's a "Player's Guide" for the HERO System (meaning a book meant to be referred to during play), I'd say it's the HERO System Basic Rulebook.

[Mister E]

Re: New Gamers

 

Isn't the need for a distinction between a PC guide & a GM guide only for game content? That is, as HERO is a game-making tool-kit and not an actual game, isn't there also no material that needs to be kept separate?

 

Naturally this isn't true for published adventures or campaign source books which usually have both.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: New Gamers

 

Maybe I've been gaming too long (~30 years), but I can't conceive of anyone buying an RPG rulebook and not knowing what it was.

[Rapier]

Re: New Gamers

 

Maybe I've been gaming too long (~30 years)' date=' but I can't conceive of anyone buying an RPG rulebook and not knowing what it was.[/quote']

 

Which is, I think, the point of the majority. I would wager most/all people would never walk into a store and say "I have no idea what X does/is/works, I think I'll buy this and give it a go!"

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Gamers

 

I was in a bar a couple weeks ago, listening to a couple guys who 20 years ago would likely have never heard of DnD avidly describing their Characters for what was obviously a Computer Game and the action involved.

 

I believe that we have reached an point where the majority (certainly not all, but most) people have a basic understanding of what Role Playing is, and don't need half a page telling them that they're going to invent and play a fictional person in a series of adventures set up by someone else. The specifics of How may still be fuzzy - but that's why we have the rulebooks. But the What is definitely in the popular subconscious at this point.

[Alibear]

Re: New Gamers

 

You don't need to have a driving license to buy a car. You could happily buy one and drive it on private property or give it away as a gift.

 

 

26 years gaming, and started in Hero when Champions II was released. First game I bought was D&D Expert boxed set. I had no idea I needed the basic set too.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Gamers

 

Maybe I've been gaming too long (~30 years)' date=' but I can't conceive of anyone buying an RPG rulebook and not knowing what it was.[/quote']

 

Which is' date=' I think, the point of the majority. I would wager most/all people would never walk into a store and say "I have no idea what X does/is/works, I think I'll buy this and give it a go!"[/quote']

 

In fairness, though, this is the opinion of the majority on these Boards. By definition, a group familiar with RPG's,and quite familiar at that.

 

We don't see newbies learning the game cold because we game with established groups. If a newbie does join our group, he gets mentored by the group because the group is there and can mentor him.

 

But we all had to start somewhere. When I started gaming, in high school, it was with a barely established group which had just acquired its first copy of the Basic D&D rules. After that, we started getting the Advanced rules, piecemeal as stores had the books. We learned as we went, so I guess it would be fair to say we were self-taught.

 

It also strikes me, as I think on it, that many, if not most, board or card games I pick up and read the rules for start with a paragraph on what the game is about before getting into the meat of the rules. Just a paragraph, but typically a paragraph in a rule book that's maybe a 24 page pamphlet size document, so probably 2 - 5 %, depending on the size of the rulebook. A much bigger percentage of the rules, then, than adding even a 2 page treatise to the basic rule book.

 

A couple of pages that aren't useful to me personally isn't, maybe, that bad an idea. I like Hero stating that it strives for cinematic realism, not reality realism, and yet most of us here are well aware of that and don't need it explained. Would it really be so bad to start with the basics - what is an RPG, and what kind of RPG is Hero?

 

While I'd rather see the industry create a "what is an RPG" document, the industry is fragmented and uncooperative, so don't hold your breath waiting for them to get together and build one. In the meantime, Hero could do worse than to make the rules friendly to established and rookie gamers alike.

[casualplayer]

Re: New Gamers

 

Appreciate all the concern about the casualplayer. Not a newb, but it's the thought that counts.

 

I don't think there is an appreciable part of the population that doesn't know what an RPG is anymore, not after MMORPGs. Might find it quaint that no computer is necessary.

 

However I share the concerns that HERO is contenting itself with converts and strays. Seems to have been a conscious choice for HERO to be marketed as the master class of gaming, but that constrains you to recruiting from those that did their journeyman gaming elsewhere.

 

Having been a former store owner, I know the power and profitability of Magical Grandma Money, that poor bewildered shopper with a vague idea of her relative's hobby but wanting to find a gift that will make their eyes light up on opening. PS238 HERO brilliantly fit this need but HERO 6th ain't it by a long shot.

[Vondy]

Re: New Gamers

 

Frankly' date=' I'm getting lost in this discussion. First I'm told that I'm wrong because people new to the RPG hobby can't pick up the Hero rules cold and teach themselves. Then when I point out that people new to the RPG hobby almost always play whatever the people who introduce them happen to play (rather than picking up a book cold), I'm told I'm wrong because existing RPGers who like to learn and teach new games don't often choose Hero as a game to do that with. Whatever. These goalposts seem to be on wheels to me...[/quote']

 

Its not moving the goal posts. Its two different goal posts. Its two kinds of fresh meat. Its two kinds of people who might come to the hobby (in general) and hero (in specific) if the "only with a mentor" stipulation you keep making doesn't get in the way.

 

I reject your assertion that gamers only come to the hobby through mentors. I know gamers whose parents thought they might like it and gave them books. I know gamers who had older siblings who wouldn't let them play and pirated their books and figured it out for themselves. Or heard about it some other way and decided to pick up the books and give it a go.

 

I also reject your assertion that gamers all learn systems by oral tradition. I learned with a friend who pirated his brothers books. We read them and sorted it out. For the first year or two we were doing it all wrong. Go figure, we started when we were seven. But eventually we got it. Almost every game I've learned I've learned cold.

 

In terms of hero. It needs fresh meat. There is more than one kind of fresh meat. There are people fresh out of the starting gate, both with and without mentors. And there are experienced gamers who need to come over to hero. I submit hero is far to conceptually dense and mechanically robust for the average gaming newbie to pick up cold.

 

I know people will chime in with exceptions. All general rules have them. I'm one. But I admit I'm anecdotal. For the gaming curious to make a go of it with Hero is improbable. And, I will also submit, that even for a gaming newcomer with a mentor there is a very good reason Hero isn't their gateway system. Hero is not a game one easily kens.

 

What do I mean? Let's take riding a bike. You don't start in with basic physics and instructions for how to assemble a bike and say: "build your bike and get going, I'll be in the den." You don't normally start by saying let's build a bike and I'll show you, either. They start by kenning how to ride a prefab bike - probably with training wheels. If they become avid cyclists they'll get into mechanics and theory to improve their performance.

 

Hero isn't a game. Its a set of instructions for building a game. To use it you have to master its concepts and mechanics. Its got a steep learning curve out of the gate. The rules do not provide a way of kenning the system from the outset. Even with a mentor getting past the learning curve and into an actual place where you can start to ken the game takes more time and effort than most games. You don't (normally) bring new people to any hobby with that kind of experience.

 

Face it, Hero is more conceptually dense than other games. It requires more time and effort to use. It can, at times, be a royal pain in the backside even for a veteran. It was in 4E days, too. And its more granular and sophisticated than it was two editions ago. This is on top of it not providing an actual game to draw people into and give them a basis for measuring and learning the system. There comes a point where sophistication is a fault.

 

Now here's where I think you assume the goal posts are being moved. You seem to think newbies ONLY come to systems without mentors (be they fresh industry meat or no) and seem to think "and there's nothing to be done about it.". In doing so you make the hobby and systems "invitation only." That's an extremely bad growth model. You need to be able to draw relative novice's in so that they ken the game and are hooked.

 

And this is where experienced gamers who are fresh meat to hero become critical. They are the ones who say "cool idea!" learn it and teach it to others. And they are doing it with other systems. With hero? Not nearly as often. And like I said, that was not the case with 4E. I knew people who picked it up and learned it cold and taught others. I admit to being mildly out of touch. BUT... even the people I taught previous editions of the system to (veteran heros) are telling me: "I need your help," and "not upgrading without you - too much work."

 

In hebrew that's called a tirchah, a bother.

 

If its a bother its not a hobby. Its a job. Or a way of life.

[Vondy]

Re: New Gamers

 

Appreciate all the concern about the casualplayer. Not a newb, but it's the thought that counts.

 

I don't think there is an appreciable part of the population that doesn't know what an RPG is anymore, not after MMORPGs. Might find it quaint that no computer is necessary.

 

However I share the concerns that HERO is contenting itself with converts and strays. Seems to have been a conscious choice for HERO to be marketed as the master class of gaming, but that constrains you to recruiting from those that did their journeyman gaming elsewhere.

 

Having been a former store owner, I know the power and profitability of Magical Grandma Money, that poor bewildered shopper with a vague idea of her relative's hobby but wanting to find a gift that will make their eyes light up on opening. PS238 HERO brilliantly fit this need but HERO 6th ain't it by a long shot.

 

Word. I must spread....

[BlackSword]

Re: New Gamers

 

I don't think there is an appreciable part of the population that doesn't know what an RPG is anymore' date=' not after MMORPGs. Might find it quaint that no computer is necessary.[/quote']

To me, I could see the value in describing the differences between a CRPG an MMORPG and pen and paper. Specifically bringing up the shortcomings of those mediums, and how pen and paper can provide a different experience.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Gamers

 

Hero DOES have an extensive introduction about both what is, and what kind of experience it is aiming at providing. Even a passing knowledge of what an RPG is will be all that'screquired to understand this intro.

 

The only thing it could possibly be missing is "roleplaying is where you..." which is a paragraph at best, and IMO extraneous, given the proliferation of the term "RPG" in society. Even small children I've talked to understand the idea of make believe.