Chaos, Order and Balance - Help Wanted

[mayapuppies]

Ok, so I have a religion that is based around the concepts of two forces in the universe and then the combination of both. The initial concept was Order/Chaos and then Balance, but I am having a very difficult time trying to write this up without it sounding like some hackneyed D&D alignment setup. This is particularly true the more literal I take it, but if I go less literal I end up losing focus.

 

So, due to the difficulty I'm having with this I'm thinking of changing the "forces of the universe" to something else but similar, for example; Predetermination/Freewill or Destruction/Construction.

 

The basic premise of the religion is that the gods that the other religions worship are considered prophets and teachers (i.e. real people) rather than divine beings who each taught the fundamentals of the 'Holy Trinity', each prophet/teacher taught one of the three tenets or some variation thereof and are thus "assigned" to one of the three orders.

 

The religion, itself, teaches that each person/priest will naturally gravitate towards one of the three orders. This is a natural occurrence and regardless of the order you acclimate to, is not considered inherently evil/good. The ultimate goal of the Holy Trinity is to have a follower be able to embody all three orders and ascend, this has never happened and as yet, very few have actually embodied more than a single order. Due to this the Temple is fragmenting into smaller fringe belief systems that are starting to attribute one or more of the "other orders" as 'evil' and their own order as the only right way.

 

The trouble I'm having is slotting the base line belief systems of the three orders, as I mention at the beginning, and I would love some help/feedback if I could get some. Keep in mind that this is a low-magic setting without the tropes of D&D.

[torchwolf]

Re: Chaos, Order and Balance - Help Wanted

 

For some real-world parallels, Eastern religions hold some interesting similarities.

 

Buddhism, as a concept, holds relatively ordered ideals high; the eight paths to enlightenment, some of which stress moral discipline more intensely than others, is a possible way to treat different factions within a religion that strives for some form of idealized perfection, and the Hinduistic idea that the world is just an imperfect reflection of the true world is possible to integrate with these basic ideas.

 

Taoism as such is more concerned with going along with the natural balance and state of things, doing only what needs being done just because it needs to be done.

 

Confucianism is generally a social code for behavior, and does not concern itself as much with the metaphysical reasons why, which is why it coexists naturally with Buddhism in China, where personal beliefs are also deemed to be more private affairs.

 

 

Whatever the basis, I think it needs to be considered what came before these Chaos, Order and Balance ethical religions. Usually, such religions evolved from spirit beliefs and ancestral beliefs, these beliefs being reduced to more abstract concepts which were integrated or shunned as the new religions developed. This might mean that an ethical concept of Order might have come first, with a reactionary counter-belief in Chaos as being more of a Libertarian ideal. Some might have seen a balance of these counterparts as a way of uniting the best of both worlds.

That approach might of course mean that the religions are also political belief systems in a sense, which might or might not be what you want.

 

In Eastern religion (and Western as well as Zoroastrianism), Chaos was traditionally associated with darkness and "bad" forces, and vice versa, but it needn't necessarily have been that way.

The taoistic concept of Yin-Yang would not necessarily have negative vs positive undercurrents, instead being different paths and elemental forces, which would work with a concept of Balance as being the neutral relation to both Chaos and Order.

 

 

These are just some thoughts on the matter, not very much detailed as such.

[Ragnarok]

Re: Chaos, Order and Balance - Help Wanted

 

I'll throw in my two cents...

 

Given that this is a low-magic setting, I'm not exactly sure what is the medium and the process of how the gods in your world grant power. The way I'm doing it in my campaign is that there aren't gods so much as fundamental "supernatural" forces, and the community of folks who channel it. I too have it divided into a trinitarian system.

 

One is a group that values heavy regulation, hierarchy and the use of supernatural power to a generally constructive end. Such a construct would tend to discourage thinking and operating outside of the box, and while the most powerful are generally the guys at the top, the system as a whole frowns upon ambitious prodigies. This would be monitored through school systems. Sort of like public school if you think about it. So, in essence, regulation and restraint for a predefined goal.

 

The other group dislikes heavy regulation, and believes more in supernatural power as a tool to achieve whatever goals you might have. As a community, you're largely free to pursue whatever avenue you want, though there is a sort of agreement that if someone uses his/her power in such a way that it would jeopardize the system, they must be dealt with. So, keeping an eye on potentially psychopathic individuals who might cause public outcry to eradicate the freedom of the system (necromancers, demon summoners, etc.)

 

The other group believes in a balance of light and dark, creation and destruction, sort of a cyclical system. Since nature works this way, this is the preferred path of druids and farmers (though farmers tend to want to focus on regenerative benefits rather than inevitable decay.)

 

So there you have it. It's worked decently so far for me, and I think it has potential. It erases the "good vs. evil" mentality of stereotypical roleplaying, though I suppose one could make an argument that this tends more toward the "order vs. chaos" aspect. I would argue that this system does not include Chaos, because in chaos there is no system! Sort of like the "Anarchist Party" joke. In this system, you could have an evil tyrant who uses the hierarchy as a way to control others, or you could have a more freelance, volatile individual who goes around using his awesome power to help people.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Chaos, Order and Balance - Help Wanted

 

Thanks you two. I'm going to throw this into my blender and continue to think on it. These are definitely good starting points.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Chaos, Order and Balance - Help Wanted

 

One thing I never liked about the Order/Chaos/Neutrality dynamic from D&D and similar sources, is that Neutrality is defined as being a balance between the two extremes. It seems to me that if that were the case, Neutrality would actually be in constant conflict with the other two to bring them "into line," as well as Order and Chaos conflicting with each other. In Michael Moorcock's fantasy stories of Elric, Corum, and others, the balance between Order and Chaos could favor one side or the other depending on which faction was in ascendancy at the time.

 

When I ran D&D I defined these "alignments" somewhat differently. Order and Chaos were both very active in the world, promoting or imposing their philosophies. At its best Order represented security and stability, at its worst tyranny and intellectual repression. The most positive aspects of Chaos were freedom and innovation, but it could also turn to anarchy and destruction for its own sake. Neutrality I defined as withdrawing from the conflicts of the world, concentrating on the "betterment" of oneself. Looked at positively, Neutrality promoted self awareness, inner piece, and contentment. Yet it could also manifest as passivity, selfishness, indulgence, and apathy. The progress of history could be viewed as the shifting dominance of one or another of these qualities.

 

Torchwolf's mention of Hinduism also reminds me of the trinity of concepts in that religion that together form the supreme god. It's a sort of synthesis of Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer. In Hinduism the Creator's role is essentially finished with the formation of the universe, and he is no longer active in the world compared to Vishnu and Shiva. However, I once tried out a similar trinity as the basis for the divine cosmology in my campaign world. There was a Creator and a Destroyer, both continuously making or ending matter, energy, and life in an unending cycle. However, the third principle was the Transformer, responsible for the dynamic changes within the created world while it exists: the growth of living things, the passing of the seasons, the crafts made by intelligent beings. The magical abilities of wizards, and especially priests, were affected by which of these principles they favored or drew power from.

 

I hope something there is helpful to you.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Chaos, Order and Balance - Help Wanted

 

Very nice thanks, you all are helping a lot. Giving me much to meditate upon and review. It's been a while since I've taken a new look at a religion and your input has been a real eye opener for me. A new perspective is always welcome.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Chaos, Order and Balance - Help Wanted

 

I have toyed with the idea of a world where the two principles are Light and Dark, (not good and evil). I can translate some of those ideas to this debate.

 

Ultimately both principles are destructive. Complete order would prevent all change. Complete chaos would render all change meaningless.

 

Therefore the only 'good' alignment is balance. Or at least this is the only one which is not ultimately hostile to life as we know it.

 

Order is stability and is associated with matter. It is sterile, lifeless and logical. Physical sciences draw on Order.

 

Chaos is change and is associated with the energy. It is protean, spiritual and insane. Magic draws on Chaos.

 

Balance is associated with life, which combines logic and madness, matter and energy, body and spirit.

 

Diseases of the mind and body are caused by imbalance between the two primal forces. But so are all extreme forms of behaviour and ability. Great strength is considered to be the symptom of an excess of Order, genius is the result of too much Chaos.

 

In terms of religious doctrine.

 

Both Order and Chaos seek to end this world by creating a new form of existence which transcends the old.

 

Priests of Order preach that existence is a vast equation and that once every last flaw has been eliminated from this equation then perfection, nirvana, will be achieved.

 

Followers of order seek to understand the universe and map out its rules. Changes of any kind should be prevented to avoid flaws in the pattern and logic must be imposed wherever it does not rule naturally. Change is corruption and that which is illogical is insane and must be culled. Order followers seek self perfection through rigorous mental discipline and physical challenges and then inflict that perfection on the world around them.

 

The clerics of Chaos teach that stillness is death and that something only truly exists when it is becoming something else. Therefore the universe must be thrown into unending flux so that one day everything, and all possible things, will exist.

 

Chaos worshippers try to destroy their attachment to the material world by any means necessary, mind altering drugs, weird philosophies and the denial of the self to name but a few. The self is just a prison which prevents the necessary evolution towards infinity. Morality is also a cage and so must be transgressed before it suffocates you. That which is unmoving is dead and so should be cleared away to make room for something new. Moving slowly is akin to not moving at all. Almost everything moves slower than something else. The old must always give way to the new.

 

Balance states that existence is its own justification and life is worthy of protection in and of itself. There is no nirvana, no better world. There is only the balance of two opposing forces which allows life to exist. Helping one force or other to gain the upper hand is tantamount to suicide on a universal scale.

 

Followers of balance preach moderation in all things and say that there are always two sides to any debate, (or sometimes three, but never four, those who say that it is possible to have four or more sides to a debate are branded as heretics and nailed up by their ankles to the nearest tree). All things sound better in harmony and you will only find happiness when your mind is at peace with itself, the body that holds it and the universe around that body. Where extreme trends, phenomenons, philosophies or people are encountered it is best to smooth them away before they can destroy the fragile yet vital balance of existence.

 

As with all religions there are varying degrees of faith, from the reasoned moderate to the frothing zealot. In some areas all three religions may co-exist in peace and in others they may be slaughtering each others' followers without mercy.

[Tywyll]

Re: Chaos, Order and Balance - Help Wanted

 

I have toyed with the idea of a world where the two principles are Light and Dark, (not good and evil). I can translate some of those ideas to this debate.

 

 

I've been running a world based around Law versus Chaos on and off for 18 years now, in a multitude of systems. Originally it grew out of my dissatisfaction with DnD's white and black ethics and my desire for conflict to arise from philosophical and religious differences, rather than absolute truisms.

 

What I've ended up with over the years is something very similar to what you've described. Balance, as a force, does from time to time work with the other sides of the conflict. In general, however, it strives to preserve the natural world and the living (human) world from the depredations of both forces. The gods of Balance tend to represent human nature (hedonism, seeking joy) or nature.

 

Over all the campaigns and all the different groups I've run through my world, I find that most players tend to gravitate towards Balance, even if that places them in the minority of power groups.

[Ragnarok]

Re: Chaos, Order and Balance - Help Wanted

 

Shadowsoul, I really like your Order vs. Chaos system. Very nifty.

 

I do see a potential problem in explaining how Chaos has a priesthood. So, maybe instead of calling it Chaos, it could be called something else that isn't quite the exact antithesis of Order? I'll try to brainstorm a few things once I get a chance.

 

What are your thoughts?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Chaos, Order and Balance - Help Wanted

 

I do see a potential problem in explaining how Chaos has a priesthood.

 

Well, "priesthood" doesn't necessarily imply "hierarchical authority." In Sunni Islam, for example, an imam who leads community prayers can be anyone whom the community accepts as an authority on the holy texts and respects for his character. Many tribal cultures have a local shaman who teaches an apprentice to be his successor.

[Markdoc]

Re: Chaos, Order and Balance - Help Wanted

 

Another spin on the same concept is in Sergey Lukyanenko's novels Night Watch, Day watch, etc. There the axes are essentially "how you obtain power". Dark creatures, such as vampires and werewolves can only ever be Dark, simply because of what they are: they must feed on people to survive. A magician, however can choose to be either Light or Dark. Dark magicians draw on people's negative emotions for power. In doing so, they cause those emotions to become more intense - perhaps, for example driving a man from anger at his boss to homicide. Light magicians, draw their power from positive emotions - but in doing so, end them. So a Light magician can take power from a couple of lovers - but risks leaving them less in love.

 

The Light believes that positive emotions - ie happiness - should be maximised. This, in theory makes them "good". However, they adopt some pretty ruthless methods in attempts to maximise people's happiness: they belive in the "the greatest good of the greatest number". The Dark, in turn believes that happiness can only ever be personal - that the individual is what matters, and in turn that if a powerful person takes from those around him to maximise his own happiness, that is as it should be.

 

This approach has something of the good/law, evil/chaos approach to it, but is more flexible. Thus in this context good/law, evil/chaos are philosophical concepts that people argue about - but Light and Dark are also real, physical concepts that affect how people interact with the world and cast magic. They have real physical consequences too - if you declare for the Light, committing Dark acts is likely to be swiftly fatal (if your own team don't get to you first) and vice versa. It is possible to balance between the two - declaring for neither Light or Dark, and attracting the suspicion of both sides - but it's not easy. It's also possible to cooperate across lines. For example Kostagyin the Vampire is definitely of the Dark, but he's basically a nice guy: he's never killed any one, his best friend is a Light Magician and he worries about the prejudice that attaches to vampires. He just thinks the Light is full of BS. The Lucent Gesar, on the other hand is a powerful light magician, and his aims are good - or so he says - but he's a ruthless SOB, that even his associates fear. And the Inquisition, which tries to prevent war between Light and Dark, is composed of creatures of both Light and Dark.

 

cheers, Mark

[mayapuppies]

Re: Chaos, Order and Balance - Help Wanted

 

Ok, you folks have helped me immensely. I greatly appreciate it. The blockage has been cleared and I am now creating the 'Mantra Magic System' that will be the mechanical underpinnings of the Temple of the Holy Trinity.

 

Thank you once again for all of your suggestions and ideas.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Chaos, Order and Balance - Help Wanted

 

Ok, the fundamentals of the rewrite:

 

There are 36 Great Teachers in the Holy Trinity history.

Each of these taught one fundamental truth about the universe.

Each of these truths belonged to one of the three fundamental energies of the universe (Order, Chaos or Balance).

When a Truth is completely understood the student is capable of harnessing the power of that truth.

In order to ascend, one must understand all of the 36 Truths.

Each Truth represents a spell.

A Trinity Priest must learn each spell independently and no Power Frameworks are allowed.

A Truth cannot be tweaked or modified in any way.

Each Truth draws END directly from the student, no END Battery's are allowed.

 

Sample Truths

 

Citrine Order

Truth of Asanes: Order and Chaos are not the Way in of themselves. They are simply aspects of one whole. Look to Nature for the truth of this; Does Winter follow Fall, which, in turn is followed by Spring and then Summer? Is that not Order? And is not the mere fact that the seasons change not Chaos?

Truth of Asanes: Dispel Chaos or Order Spells 10d6 (30 Active Points); OAF (Holy Symbol; -1), Requires A Roll (Characteristic roll; EGO; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4)

 

Ruby Order

Truth of Accircius: A wise man does not go about revenge alone and quietly. A wise man cries out to the wind and brings along many friends.

Truth of Accircius: Mind Control 6d6 (Human class of minds), Area Of Effect Nonselective (16m Radius; +1/2) (45 Active Points); Set Effect (Only To Incite People To Join Caster On Mission Of Revenge; -1 1/2), OAF (Holy Symbol; -1), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2), Requires A Roll (Characteristic roll; EGO; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Stops Working If Caster Is Knocked Out (-1/4)

 

Sapphire Order

Truth of Chulashmel: Once a thing is frozen it is forever unchanged. Would all the world be as such then Order shall be brought.

Truth of Chulasmel: Entangle 3d6, 3 PD/3 ED (Stops A Given Sense Group Hearing Group, Stops A Given Sense Group Smell/Taste Group) (50 Active Points); OAF (Holy Symbol; -1), Extra Time (Extra Phase, Only to Activate, -1/2), Requires A Roll (Characteristic roll; EGO; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4)

 

Truth of Ezemend: The laws of Man are all that keep the laymen from descending into utter Chaos. It is through the knowledge and obedience to these laws that Order is maintained. Ignorance of these laws cannot be allowed.

Truth of Ezemend: KS: All Applicable Laws To Current Location (20 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, Only to Activate, Character May Take No Other Actions, -1 1/4), OAF (Holy Symbol; -1), Concentration (0 DCV; Character is totally unaware of nearby events; -3/4), Requires A Roll (Characteristic roll; EGO; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) 20-