LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

[Guest steamteck]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

In my campaign. I have almost no supesr who either wasn't born that way or was an adventurer/exceptional beforehand. Those who have powers have avenues for training. Almost all of them are under NCM levels unless its in their concept to not be. The top brute giant guy bricks have DEX of maybe 11-12 but several combat skill levels. Dex 18 isn't unusual for these adventurer types and some are higher or lower depending on concept.

 

The power armor guys tend to be a little slower than some others depending on their backgrounds. Lots of supers start out as non powered pulpish adventurers anyway. Then add powers.

 

My avatar is basically a Doc Savage type who discovered Thor's belt of strength and managed to incorporate its magic into himself. pretty typical origin type for my supers universe. Basically the same character non powered is a pretty effective guy in my SF universe.

[Bloodstone]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Lets take some annoying little slip of a punk teenage girl super. Like Jubilee on the very first day she appeared on the X-men. I don't want someone like that to have stats that allow her to take out a squad of special forces guys!

 

Same goes for some wimpy science geek/photographer named Peter Parker. No Spidey powers and he's going to have trouble with Flash Thompson.

 

But, lets add a few years of training to that.

 

For a good long while every single one of the X-Men and Avengers has EXTENSIVE combat training under some of the finest martial artists in the Marvel Universe (Wolverine, Captain America and others). Time in the Danger Room or out in the field fighting bad guys and you are going to develop some pretty mad skills.

 

Some backgrounds will demand stats that are pretty damn good to begin with. John Stewart is a former Marine when he first got his ring. Kyle Rayner was a struggling artist. Without the ring, it's easy to guess who I'd put my money on in a fight. At least on day one...

 

So while I tend to favor a "Supers should be normal humans without their powers" approach, it's on a very case by case basis and obviously subject to changes over time.

 

Kitty Pryde has grown from an annoying 13 year old brat to a frigging ninja grandmaster. If she couldn't handle herself in a fight sans powers, something would be very wrong indeed.

 

But it's because she has the right training, not because she's inherently superior by virtue of wearing a costume.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Bloodstone put pretty it much how I feel.

[Matt Holck]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

I'll save levels for another day

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

The Power levels in Champions came from the designers wanting to emulate the comics of the day and their youth. Where the Heroes were always better/faster etc than the regular people. That even the slowest bricks were faster than a police officer or Special forces folk. So the dex and spd were set to emulate this. It was later influenced by Other groups outside of the core who liked to play even more powerful characters' date=' but not to the ridiculous extremes that group had (ie avg 33dex 6-7spd).[/quote']

 

The original designers did not indicate "normal human" stats. They simply set sample characters with DEX ranging from about 18 to 30, which quickly rose to a standard of 20 to 35, with SPD 4 at the low end to 7 at the high end (higher for the occasional exceptional villain). "Base human" was 10 DEX, 2 SPD, but "elite human" was not really set.

 

As to the Super Mythology, I disagree. Show me the Silver/Bronze age comics where the Supers are consistently missed by soldiers, cops and street punks. They miss Daredevil, Spider Man, Batman and the Flash - heroes for whom agility is part of their power suite. But they hit the Thing and the Hulk. Sue Storm and Green Lantern block them with force fields, and Human Torch melts the bullets before they can strike him. But most Supers have defenses to prevent harm from those normals, not such combat skill that they can't be struck.

 

It's only Hero that set the DEX bar at 23 and then, some time later, defined that typical Super as "beyond the maximum for the typical human".

[dmjalund]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

a beginnign Cyclop is just a teenager with an optic blast. Add time, training, high tech costume - and you get a leader who has learn combat skill specially to deal with his vulnerabilities plus a skill with his optic blast that allows him to be very effective at a distance

[Tasha]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

The original designers did not indicate "normal human" stats. They simply set sample characters with DEX ranging from about 18 to 30, which quickly rose to a standard of 20 to 35, with SPD 4 at the low end to 7 at the high end (higher for the occasional exceptional villain). "Base human" was 10 DEX, 2 SPD, but "elite human" was not really set.

 

As to the Super Mythology, I disagree. Show me the Silver/Bronze age comics where the Supers are consistently missed by soldiers, cops and street punks. They miss Daredevil, Spider Man, Batman and the Flash - heroes for whom agility is part of their power suite. But they hit the Thing and the Hulk. Sue Storm and Green Lantern block them with force fields, and Human Torch melts the bullets before they can strike him. But most Supers have defenses to prevent harm from those normals, not such combat skill that they can't be struck.

 

It's only Hero that set the DEX bar at 23 and then, some time later, defined that typical Super as "beyond the maximum for the typical human".

 

BTW in Champions II, the levels for Normal Humans were set down. Originally a Tough Thug had a Dex of 14 and Spd of 3. I can print for you the section that talks about very well trained normals having Dex in the range of 18- over 20 (superheroic levels). If you have Champions II it's on Pgs 58-59.

 

Also in the Designers Note in Champions 3rd Edition, they mention Spd as being one way that Supers are "superior to Normals" (pg 130 Champions 3rd edition)

 

Of course by 4th edition the "Average" Champions game was chugging along with the following levels 11d6 Main attack, Average Defense of 25, Average Dex of 23, and Average Spd of 5.5 (Pg S 22 Champions 4ed Rulebook(1st printing)). The Viper agents detailed in the Adventure section have Dex 14 Spd 3. A "Competent Normal has a Dex of 14 and Spd 3 (Champions 4ed Rulebook Pg 134 (1st Printing)).

 

So that's why the Average Stats are high for 5e and 6e hero. It's a tradition since 4e that they be at that level. Again if you want to run a less Super version of Champions, good. I respectfully disagree that your deflated heroes should be the norm.

 

Also I think that it was about Player perception of their character. Since the highest Dex one could get (without magical assistance) was 18 in AD&D. I think that many of the people who converted from A-D&D to Champions wanted supers that had higher numbers than their Favorite Montie Haul D&D characters had. While I talk about 23 being average, for 4e. I remember that many of our original Champions campaigns had characters with average Dex 28+ and Spd of 7-9. Of course in those days we didn't play with a point limit (100pts + all of the Disads required to pay for your character). We saw characters that were played by people who played with the Designers (Second circle players) who had characters even more crazy powerful than us. I do realize that the Inner circle players started with much lower Stats, but some of the other campaigns that were being played on the Pennisula (ie San Mateo area) had crazy powerful characters. So many of the Bay Area Campaigns were being influenced by Friends of Friends of the Designers. You see their influence in Enemies IV with characters like Rainbow Archer. Also that particular Supplement also influenced the crazy powerful games to become even more powerful.

 

This all changed for my group when Champions 3rd edition shipped. We started to enforce point limits and started to rein in the worst of our Munchkin players. By the time 4e shipped our characters were already at Dex 23 Spd 5 average. What 4e did for us was give us more skills, and points to spend on them (the point limit went up a bit in 4e). Though we were nearly there ourselves (we played 100+150 in Disads with +50pts in non combat skills ie Survival, persuasion etc).

[Greywind]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

a beginnign Cyclop is just a teenager with an optic blast. Add time' date=' training, high tech costume - and you get a leader who has learn combat skill specially to deal with his vulnerabilities plus a skill with his optic blast that allows him to be very effective at a distance[/quote']What "high tech" costume we talking about? Cyke wore spandex.

[Tasha]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

What "high tech" costume we talking about? Cyke wore spandex.

 

Well not quite. All Heroes in the Marvel Universe wore Costumes made with "Unstable Molecules" which both made the costume resistant to that hero's power and gave some protection to tears rips etc.

 

Also, Cyclops had a ton of training. He was the first Mutant that Prof X trained. Take the Mutant powers away and Cyclops still had a ton of combat training. Not much offense, but lots of defense and Tactical Knowledge.

[Matt Holck]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

nylon

[Greywind]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Well not quite. All Heroes in the Marvel Universe wore Costumes made with "Unstable Molecules" which both made the costume resistant to that hero's power and gave some protection to tears rips etc.

Only if they're on good terms with Mr. Fantastic...

 

Cap wore spandex and scale mail. Spider-Man is quite proud of the fact he sewed his costume himself.

 

The only special tech Cyke ever needed was his visor, constructed of a ruby quartz lensing system.

[Rapier]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

What "high tech" costume we talking about? Cyke wore spandex.

 

High tech prosthetic groin implant? I mean, superheroes tend to ALL be rather well endowed.

[lemming]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

What "high tech" costume we talking about? Cyke wore spandex.

 

At some point, their costumes were hi-tech bullet proof spandex. Designed by Forge iirc sometime in late 80s, early 90s

[Matt Holck]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Utility invented plassteel armor around that time.

The development destroyed him financially .

His company recovered during the Afghanistan/Iraq wars.

[Tasha]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

I believe that Dr Doom also knew how to make the fabric. There was a time in the 70's where I seem to remember everyone was boasting about their "Unstable Molecule" costuming.

 

I believe that Reed shared his tech with all of the goodguys who wanted it.

 

Also Lemming has a point about Forge and his armored costumes from the mid 90's

[Greywind]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

About the time Claremont and Marvel started dropping plotlines like the Punisher dropped mobsters...

[lapsedgamer]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

What "high tech" costume we talking about? Cyke wore spandex.

 

nylon

 

I believe that Dr Doom also knew how to make the fabric. There was a time in the 70's where I seem to remember everyone was boasting about their "Unstable Molecule" costuming.

 

I believe that Reed shared his tech with all of the goodguys who wanted it.

 

Also Lemming has a point about Forge and his armored costumes from the mid 90's

 

The X-suits were deemed to be bullet resistant in the early 90s and beyond. In fac,t I seem to remeber the term "bullet proof spandex" being used in an X-book at some point, which later made it into the Champions Universe. When I GM, I always tell folks that they should always put a few points into resistant defense, even if they have to go with and OIF suit excuse. You can basically always justify that. If you were going to be a superhero, you would put on some type of armor if you weren't bulletproof.

[Matt Holck]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

well,

they can apply their non-resistant defense against the stun

even if they have no resistant defense 6e2 103

when did that change?

[SteveZilla]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

6e.

[SteveZilla]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

The X-Men did have costumes made with Unstable Molecules -- IIRC it was mentioned in the same issue where Professor X introduces his new recruits, including Colossus, Storm, and Nightcrawler. But I don't recall a mention of the UM costumes being resistant to lethal damage.

[Tasha]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

The X-Men did have costumes made with Unstable Molecules -- IIRC it was mentioned in the same issue where Professor X introduces his new recruits' date=' including Colossus, Storm, and Nightcrawler. But I don't recall a mention of the UM costumes being resistant to lethal damage.[/quote']

 

Hard to know, because lethal damage (ie Killing attacks) were pretty rare in the Marvel Universe prior to Wolverine's debut.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Not official but I remember talking to Terry Austin who inked Xmen at the time back at a con way back in the day and he said their costumes were bulletproof and that was part of the rational for wearing them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

BTW in Champions II' date=' the levels for Normal Humans were set down. Originally a Tough Thug had a Dex of 14 and Spd of 3. I can print for you the section that talks about very well trained normals having Dex in the range of 18- over 20 (superheroic levels). If you have Champions II it's on Pgs 58-59.[/quote']

 

By that time, the standard Supers DEX and SPD were already about 23 and based on the sample characters published in Champions 1st ED, carried over into Champions 2nd Ed (and the first few Enemies books), all of which were out before Champions II. At that point, the Thugs needed enough DEX to have a remote chance of hitting the typical hero (Tough Thug still needed 9- to hit the slow 20 DEX bricks - 37.5% chance to hit. The typical 23 DEX target? 8-, so a bit over 1 in 4 hits. Funny - the punk muggers in the comics seem able to hit the Brick and the Energy Projector (but not hurt them) much easier than that. Champions II's normal charts didn't so much set a scale as acknowledge where the levels had evolved to.

 

Also in the Designers Note in Champions 3rd Edition' date=' they mention Spd as being one way that Supers are "superior to Normals" (pg 130 Champions 3rd edition)[/quote']

 

Again, this is how matters evolved. This, however, is consistent with the source material - the heros always seem to act faster than the thugs (although the thugs often seem to get the first shot off against those with the defenses to be impressively unharmed).

 

So that's why the Average Stats are high for 5e and 6e hero. It's a tradition since 4e that they be at that level. Again if you want to run a less Super version of Champions' date=' good. I respectfully disagree that your deflated heroes should be the norm.[/quote']

 

Figured characteristics and comelines are also traditions dating back to or prior to 4e. Was it Champions II that suggested spending some xp enhancing your comeliness since your hero now gets all that press coverage? The fact is that "every Super has a DEX level at or above an Olympic gymnast" is a tradition of Champions, and is a departure from, rather than a reflection of, the source material. Champions, like D&D, becomes a subgenre of the source material it was intended to emulate.

 

So many of the Bay Area Campaigns were being influenced by Friends of Friends of the Designers. You see their influence in Enemies IV with characters like Rainbow Archer. Also that particular Supplement also influenced the crazy powerful games to become even more powerful.

 

Absolutely - the published material influences character builds. It becomes an arms race. If you drop typical DEX/CV by 8 - 10/3 you get exactly the same results comparing major characters. That Brick who would have an 18 DEX gets an 8 (3 CV), the EP with a 23 DEX drops to 14 (5 CV) and the Martial Artist drops from 30 to 20 (7 CV),. and they still have exactly thesame chance to hit, or be hit by, one another. But now the Street Punk with 11 DEX hits the Brick most of the time, hits the EP half the time and still has a tough time against the MA (who probably uses maneuvers and levels for more DCV - why bother with OCV when he hits over 90% of the time with his base 14-). And look - they've each freed up 18-20 points to buy other abilities to make themselves even more superior to the Street Tough. Rather than an arm's race to keep up with the ability to hit the enemy, and occasionally not be hit in return, we get more points to spend on things that differenntiate the characters.

 

 

Only if they're on good terms with Mr. Fantastic...

 

The only special tech Cyke ever needed was his visor, constructed of a ruby quartz lensing system.

 

Giant Size X-Men #1 features Prof X telling the new recruits their costumes are constructed of unstable molecules, invented by Reed Richards. Secret Wars commented on Spidey having one of the few costumes that actually suffered wear and tear.

 

They were not mentioned as hving any special defensive qualities (if they did, Storm's constume would have been pretty poorly designed). Damage resistant costumes came along later, partially as an excuse for why most X-Men weren't bullet ridden and in part to create an excuse for the costumes (presumably, these facbricks could not be woven into nondescript clothing). But the logic never seemed right, especially when looking at most of the female characters' costumes.

[Cardinal]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

As to the Super Mythology, I disagree. Show me the Silver/Bronze age comics where the Supers are consistently missed by soldiers, cops and street punks. They miss Daredevil, Spider Man, Batman and the Flash - heroes for whom agility is part of their power suite. But they hit the Thing and the Hulk. Sue Storm and Green Lantern block them with force fields, and Human Torch melts the bullets before they can strike him. But most Supers have defenses to prevent harm from those normals, not such combat skill that they can't be struck.

 

The concept above is why I have grown to like the concept of damage negation (I haven't used it in a game yet, so I don't have a strong feeling if the mechanic works - but I love the concept). One concern with traditional defenses was that if you got hit by the cop / thug, you could lose the stun lotto and get knocked out. This means that you would jack Dex and Spd inorder to make sure that you had a DCV that would avoid getting hit. With damage negation, you can definitive know that certain attacks from normals will have no impact and therefore do not have the same DCV needs. As such, it would suggest that the Thing rocky hide, Colossus's steel body, and Sue Richard's forcefield were all a mix of rDef + Damage Negation.

 

It also takes discipline on the part of the GM to not overly upgrade "normal" weapons. I was surprised when I read through the Viper source book how many ridiculously powerful weapons were available for Viper Squads and that even some of the standard weapons could put heros down. If you don't want the supers to fear agents and thugs, you have to accept lower DC standards.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Mind you, there's nothing stopping one from saying that the Special Effect of an Attack Roll against one's character failing, is that the attack bounced off the character's skin/armor/force field etc. As is often mentioned in discussions of the system, how something plays out game-mechanically doesn't necessarily have to define how it looks within the world of the game.